As a BBEG, the perfect place to hide my mcguffin is in a small cave half way up a 300' cliff.
You guys would never find it...because it is "too tedious" to get to if you actually had to roll dice.
Good for you. I guess the BBEG will win, and the campaign will be over.
Nah. Rolling a bunch of dice with no tactics or decisions isn't fun.
You assume that there is nothing to find while climbing said cliff. It's just an obstacle that exists between you and your BBEG.
As a BBEG, the perfect place to hide my mcguffin is in a small cave half way up a 300' cliff.
You guys would never find it...because it is "too tedious" to get to if you actually had to roll dice.
Well first off what kind of cliff, what level are we, whats the time frame to get it? Important questions.
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Nah. Rolling a bunch of dice with no tactics or decisions isn't fun.
You assume that there is nothing to find while climbing said cliff. It's just an obstacle that exists between you and your BBEG.
As a BBEG, the perfect place to hide my mcguffin is in a small cave half way up a 300' cliff.
You guys would never find it...because it is "too tedious" to get to if you actually had to roll dice.
GM: You're standing in front of a 300' cliff. Natural, rough rock. How do you want to proceed.
Climby McClimbster: I'll climb up it. I'll take 10, since my modifier is +18.GM: Great! You have no problem making your way up the cliff. Roll a perception check.
C McC: *rolls* 26.
GM: About halfway up the cliff, you notice some odd shadowing above you and maybe 30' to your right. It looks like there might be an opening.
C McC: That sounds Promising. I want to go check it out!
GM: It does look like you can make it over there, but the cliff face is a bit smoother, handholds might be a bit more difficult to find.
C McC: Hmm ... I'll risk it. Take 10 again.
GM: You're able to get within about 15' of the opening, but once there you have difficulty finding a reliable way forward. You think you might be able to continue, but it won't be easy. You can't get a great view of the opening, but you can make out what appears to be the symbol of BBEG, faintly etched into the ceiling of the entrance.
C McC: I think I'll climb down now and get the rest of the party. Pretty sure our Cleric has Communal Air Walk.
/scene
Nah. Rolling a bunch of dice with no tactics or decisions isn't fun.
You assume that there is nothing to find while climbing said cliff. It's just an obstacle that exists between you and your BBEG.
As a BBEG, the perfect place to hide my mcguffin is in a small cave half way up a 300' cliff.
You guys would never find it...because it is "too tedious" to get to if you actually had to roll dice.
Not just too tedious, though that's part of it.
Too deadly. Or still perfectly safe if your climb roll is high enough.Mind you with Take 10 rules, you could still put the cave in the cliff and have the climber notice it. You could even do something like have the basic climb at a DC that could be done with Take 10, but have it harder to cross over to the cave once you spot it.
There's a decision point. Makes it more interesting.
It appears you and I had the same idea ...
Yeah, though I was thinking that the climber would actually risk rolling for it. Just to keep Quintain happy.:)It appears you and I had the same idea ...
Nah. Rolling a bunch of dice with no tactics or decisions isn't fun.
You assume that there is nothing to find while climbing said cliff. It's just an obstacle that exists between you and your BBEG.
As a BBEG, the perfect place to hide my mcguffin is in a small cave half way up a 300' cliff.
You guys would never find it...because it is "too tedious" to get to if you actually had to roll dice.
Not just too tedious, though that's part of it.
Too deadly. Or still perfectly safe if your climb roll is high enough.Mind you with Take 10 rules, you could still put the cave in the cliff and have the climber notice it. You could even do something like have the basic climb at a DC that could be done with Take 10, but have it harder to cross over to the cave once you spot it.
There's a decision point. Makes it more interesting.
I almost put in a choose your own adventure hook there at the end.
Perhaps had Climby fallen to her death inconvenience, it would punch up the joke about the Cleric casting Communal Air Walk.
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Gaming at Quintain's table sounds irredeemably tedious if he expects people to make checks like this. If he expected my character to make 20 checks to climb something he could take-10 on, I'd never come back to another session. All the required dice rolling is a boring waste of time for the party as a whole.
I wonder how many other people posting in this thread would come back?
I guess challenges are too much for you. [...]
For me, the fun is in the journey, not the destination.
Assuming -- against my better judgement -- that you're writing in good faith.... No. Challenges aren't too much. But pointless and boring challenges are pointless and boring
It's not that they're too much, it's that they're too little. Too little drama, too little relevance, too little reason to care.
You assume that there is nothing to find while climbing said cliff. It's just an obstacle that exists between you and your BBEG.
As a BBEG, the perfect place to hide my mcguffin is in a small cave half way up a 300' cliff.
You guys would never find it...because it is "too tedious" to get to if you actually had to roll dice.
I don't expect your players would find it either, since none of them would survive the climb with your proposed change.
Go ahead and find your favorite dice roller and make the climb. I just tried it and failed 4 out of 4 attempts. Your proposed change doesn't add challenge. It just makes failure a virtual certainty.
You're right.
Without healing, the outcome are either you're dead or you quit.
With healing, and being high level enough (for HP), the outcome become "you succeed, but you used X charges of your wand(s)"
Gaming at Quintain's table sounds irredeemably tedious if he expects people to make checks like this. If he expected my character to make 20 checks to climb something he could take-10 on, I'd never come back to another session. All the required dice rolling is a boring waste of time for the party as a whole.
I wonder how many other people posting in this thread would come back?
I guess challenges are too much for you. [...]
For me, the fun is in the journey, not the destination.
Assuming -- against my better judgement -- that you're writing in good faith.... No. Challenges aren't too much. But pointless and boring challenges are pointless and boring
It's not that they're too much, it's that they're too little. Too little drama, too little relevance, too little reason to care.
To second here on a 300' cliff assuming that only one person needs to climb that's 40 rolls if a whole 4 man party needs up there that's 160 rolls. If we assume low level (1-3) and a dc 15 cliff we have a characters with (assuming no one dumped str) rolls of 0-14 (14 being max ranks skill focus and 20 str.) the guy with Zero has to roll a 15 or better to go up and the guy on the top end doesn't even have to roll. So if we assume someone on each end of the spectrum then we can assume that no roll guy will drop a knotted rope or something to drop the dc some for everyone else lets say to a dc 10. our low end guy still cant move up 50% of the time and each time he doesn't move up there is a 50% chance of him falling possibly to his death if he is near the top.
I think the problem here is that people are operating under the misconception that Taking 10 cares about penalty for failure. It doesn't. All it cares about is whether or not you are in immediate danger or distracted. The penalty for failure is for Taking 20. So to answer the original question: yes, you can Take 10 when climbing. That doesn't mean that you will be successful. It just means that you did an average job.
As for the Climb speed argument, remember that Taking 10 is still making a skill check. That's what that portion of the description is talking about. It's saying that you don't automatically climb everything. It just means that you are subject to the same penalties and bonuses as everyone else and you get a +8 to your check to boot! You can also Take 10 regardless of circumstances.
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Despite the danger, Rabbit possesses an ability to use knowledge checks and take ten.
10+12 = 22. Success! I identified a troll.
I think the proposition made earlier by Quintain that equates "taking 10 on climb checks" as "giving everything to the players" is sad. Not old school, just sad.
I get that you want climbing to be dangerous and use your own house rule. What do your players think? Do they come back for more than one campaign? Do they love it and how much you it makes you happy to have this house rule?
Ive sent my imp Wesley to your PCs to send a box of rings of feather fall to your players. I don't want them to get hurt further. I also included pillows and sheets so they can settle in for a long night of Clifffinder.
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You already know RAW, and RAI, and how your approach a style that creates more "realism", or even more fun.
The Climb are not as accurate to real life, as some might prefer, but the removal of Take 10 does not improve the "realism" factor.
It does, well, nothing, except waste time, and create silly situations, that actually pull away from, what could be called "realism", and just sort sticks it to players.
I won't tell you how to have fun, but I have a hard time seeing how this stance adds to it, and also does so for your players.
This all seems to be malice, and/or misunderstanding, and a push towards a result, that does not align with what you state is your desired result.
I can't, well, really do, or say, anything more at this point, except say, good luck to you, and your players, as it seems that's all you really have.
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Not all cliffs are stagnant in their climbs. Sometimes cliffs do get easier or harder to climb* in certain places. So let the PCs take 10 until they get to an area where taking 10 causes them to miss the DC but not enough to fall off.
DM: You all stare at the 300 ft before.
Ftr1: I take 10 and begin to climb.
DM: You make it about 100 ft when you reach for a hand hold and it slips. Luckily you didnt fall, but you realize that the climb has gotten harder.
Ftr1: (Looking down at his friends and then looking up knowing that someone needs to get up there) Ok, I continue on but I need to try harder (rolling die).....
This saves the tedious case of rolling 20, 30, 40 etc dice rolls but still gives you a chance to give that element of danger to a PC who needs something more than taking 10...
Thats just how I run games....
edit: word substitution
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Not all cliffs are stagnant in their climbs. Sometimes cliffs do get easier or harder to climb* in certain places. So let the PCs take 10 until they get to an area where taking 10 causes them to miss the DC but not enough to fall off.
DM: You all stare at the 300 ft before.
Ftr1: I take 10 and begin to climb.
DM: You make it about 100 ft when you reach for a hand hold and it slips. Luckily you didnt fall, but you realize that the climb has gotten harder.
Ftr1: (Looking down at his friends and then looking up knowing that someone needs to get up there) Ok, I continue on but I need to try harder (rolling die).....
And then he falls. (Unless you just make it a short harder section.) Because if he needs an 11 to make progress he needs a 6 to not fall and he's got 200' and a lot of rolls to go.
Or if he says he'll climb back down, you can tell him downclimbing is harder, which it really is, so he'll need to roll to get back down too. :)
I think the key thing to take from this whole discussion is that long climbs don't work in PF.
Agreed long climbs don't work.
My point is that the maybe 290 ft of a 300 ft climb can easily be taken care of by taking 10, but there is a small section of the cliff that requires a little more attention...
My point is that the maybe 290 ft of a 300 ft climb can easily be taken care of by taking 10, but there is a small section of the cliff that requires a little more attention...
And this adds,... what, exactly?
As thejeff says, if this "small section of the cliff that requires a little more attention" is actually an issue, he'll simply climb down again and say "Hey, Gandalf, it's not climbable. Cast levitate, will ya?"
So, basically, you've now provided the character with a number of choices, none of them fun.
You have now
1) Given the player a chance to roll a d20 against a chance of ignominious and unheroic death, for no benefit whatsoever.
OR
2) Given the player a chance to demonstrate, once again, that playing a non-caster in Pathfinder is simply a way to be a loser who can't do anything useful.
OR
3) Demonstrated to the player that no matter how much planning and forethought goes into attempting a task, the GM will arbitrarily screw him over because SUCCESS IS NOT AN OPTION.
Demonstrated to the player that no matter how much planning and forethought goes into attempting a task, the GM will arbitrarily screw him over because SUCCESS IS NOT AN OPTION.
THIS IS THE ANSWER. But seriously, I've encountered a GM that played this way. we're lv12 and I'm a wizard 1st fight has SR 31, I've spent a lot of resources on spell pen, feats and items, so I pass 3/4 times. GM gets upset that the fight was too easy and says he's going to up the SR to make it harder. We're lv12 and I have a +15 stealth and I'm invisible, I get spotted by the lv20 ninja's that patrol the town at night, but can't be seen or detected with magic. Or that none of a party of 6 spotted the HUGE DRAGON that was hiding 10ft from us.
Some GM's hate that things that were hard at lv2 are easy at lv12, or that something that is hard for a normal lv2 is easy for someone who invested to be good at that. Some GM's feel that the players should always have about a 50% chance to succeed or fail.
THIS IS THE ANSWER. But seriously, I've encountered a GM that played this way. we're lv12 and I'm a wizard 1st fight has SR 31, I've spent a lot of resources on spell pen, feats and items, so I pass 3/4 times. GM gets upset that the fight was too easy and says he's going to up the SR to make it harder.
Yup. This is a problem.
A character/player who spends resources to be good at something has demonstrated that she wants to be good at that thing. Presumably there's a reason you took Spell Penetration instead of, say, Craft Wand.... and it might have something to do with wanting to penetrate spell resistance. For the GM to say "oh, well, I'll just up everyone's SR by the equivalent number of points" is the same thing as saying "oh, I guess you didn't get a feat this level after all."
And it's the same thing when you up the AC because the fighter hits too often, or when you boost everyone's CMD because the tetori's grapple is too good, or stop using anything but vermin and undead because the witch's slumber hex DCs are too high.
Because players are supposed to be good at what they want to be good at.
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OVERTHINKING.
Yeah, some players are good at that too.
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As a BBEG, the perfect place to hide my mcguffin is in a small cave half way up a 300' cliff.
You guys would never find it...because it is "too tedious" to get to if you actually had to roll dice.
No he wouldn't - just like EVERYONE ELSE, he FAILED at least one of his 20 climb checks and fell to his death trying to hide it - your mcguffin is lying on the ground at the base of the cliff, along with the corpse of your BBEG.
No he wouldn't - just like EVERYONE ELSE, he FAILED at least one of his 20 climb checks and fell to his death trying to hide it - your mcguffin is lying on the ground at the base of the cliff, along with the corpse of your BBEG.As a BBEG, the perfect place to hide my mcguffin is in a small cave half way up a 300' cliff.
You guys would never find it...because it is "too tedious" to get to if you actually had to roll dice.
Nope, he used gear to prevent himself from falling.
Nope, he used gear to prevent himself from falling.No he wouldn't - just like EVERYONE ELSE, he FAILED at least one of his 20 climb checks and fell to his death trying to hide it - your mcguffin is lying on the ground at the base of the cliff, along with the corpse of your BBEG.As a BBEG, the perfect place to hide my mcguffin is in a small cave half way up a 300' cliff.
You guys would never find it...because it is "too tedious" to get to if you actually had to roll dice.
Or just used magic since it's apparently the best way of navigating climb checks in your world.
Nope, he used gear to prevent himself from falling.No he wouldn't - just like EVERYONE ELSE, he FAILED at least one of his 20 climb checks and fell to his death trying to hide it - your mcguffin is lying on the ground at the base of the cliff, along with the corpse of your BBEG.As a BBEG, the perfect place to hide my mcguffin is in a small cave half way up a 300' cliff.
You guys would never find it...because it is "too tedious" to get to if you actually had to roll dice.
So when we kill the BBEG we get his gear and prevent ourselves from falling. No risk of failure, so now we can Take-10, right?
How have you made the challenge more interesting?
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Or, just amused at the responses it elicits.
I still think he's just not getting the probability part. Still thinking of it as fun risk, rather than nearly guaranteed failure, even with the smallest possible chance of falling.More interesting for himself.
It's a different DM style.
It's not about playing with others, it's about playing with yourself, and having others there to watch.
Some groups are in to that.
You realize that dice rolls aren't *ever* evenly distributed over the course of any number of rolls themselves.
You guys crunching the numbers and determining probability are assuming even distribution of rolls.
That is not the case.
How have you made the challenge more interesting?
By putting the mcguffin in the one place you'll never go, thus making the BBEG invulnerable (or at least having an easy escape).
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You realize that dice rolls aren't *ever* evenly distributed over the course of any number of rolls themselves.
They don't have to be. The more you roll the dice, the higher the chance of a 1 coming up.
We're not saying that the rolls of your players will be evenly distributed. We're saying the more that you roll, the more likely they will fail it, to the point of near absolute certainty thereof. Because the dice generate a standard distribution.
Or are you saying your players never roll below 10?
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Boots of the cat. Martials 1st purchase in that kind of campaign (or a pearl of power 1st and blackmail the wizard into using it for levitate)
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Guess someone will need this:
Source: Curse of the Crimson Throne Player's Guide pg. 6
As a child, you spent a lot of time in the Shingles, the interconnected rooftops that span much of Korvosa. You are particularly adept at climbing, jumping, and avoiding falls.Prerequisites: Dex 13, Acrobatic.
Benefit: You gain a +2 bonus on Climb and Acrobatics checks, and may take 10 on Climb checks even when distracted. If you fall, you automatically reduce the damage taken by the fall by one die, as if you had fallen 10 less feet. This reduction in damage stacks with the Acrobatics checks to further reduce falling damage.
Climbing the cliff:
Fall!
12d6
Did you survive? Try again?
You forgot a few things:
1) Rolling a 1 isn't automatic failure.
2) You can get gear modifiers: See Spider harness
3) You get a saving throw to catch yourself in the case of a fall.
You guys are ignoring a lot of rules when you start talking your probabilities and quips about "auto failure".
Benefit: You gain a +2 bonus on Climb and Acrobatics checks, and may take 10 on Climb checks even when distracted. If you fall, you automatically reduce the damage taken by the fall by one die, as if you had fallen 10 less feet. This reduction in damage stacks with the Acrobatics checks to further reduce falling damage.
I like it! Nice find.