Can you take 10 on climb?


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Quintain wrote:

As a BBEG, the perfect place to hide my mcguffin is in a small cave half way up a 300' cliff.

You guys would never find it...because it is "too tedious" to get to if you actually had to roll dice.

Good for you. I guess the BBEG will win, and the campaign will be over.


Quintain wrote:
Quote:


Nah. Rolling a bunch of dice with no tactics or decisions isn't fun.

You assume that there is nothing to find while climbing said cliff. It's just an obstacle that exists between you and your BBEG.

As a BBEG, the perfect place to hide my mcguffin is in a small cave half way up a 300' cliff.

You guys would never find it...because it is "too tedious" to get to if you actually had to roll dice.

Not just too tedious, though that's part of it.

Too deadly. Or still perfectly safe if your climb roll is high enough.

Mind you with Take 10 rules, you could still put the cave in the cliff and have the climber notice it. You could even do something like have the basic climb at a DC that could be done with Take 10, but have it harder to cross over to the cave once you spot it.
There's a decision point. Makes it more interesting.


Quintain wrote:
Quote:


Nah. Rolling a bunch of dice with no tactics or decisions isn't fun.

You assume that there is nothing to find while climbing said cliff. It's just an obstacle that exists between you and your BBEG.

As a BBEG, the perfect place to hide my mcguffin is in a small cave half way up a 300' cliff.

You guys would never find it...because it is "too tedious" to get to if you actually had to roll dice.

Well first off what kind of cliff, what level are we, whats the time frame to get it? Important questions.


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Quintain wrote:
Quote:


Nah. Rolling a bunch of dice with no tactics or decisions isn't fun.

You assume that there is nothing to find while climbing said cliff. It's just an obstacle that exists between you and your BBEG.

As a BBEG, the perfect place to hide my mcguffin is in a small cave half way up a 300' cliff.

You guys would never find it...because it is "too tedious" to get to if you actually had to roll dice.

GM: You're standing in front of a 300' cliff. Natural, rough rock. How do you want to proceed.

Climby McClimbster: I'll climb up it. I'll take 10, since my modifier is +18.
GM: Great! You have no problem making your way up the cliff. Roll a perception check.
C McC: *rolls* 26.
GM: About halfway up the cliff, you notice some odd shadowing above you and maybe 30' to your right. It looks like there might be an opening.
C McC: That sounds Promising. I want to go check it out!
GM: It does look like you can make it over there, but the cliff face is a bit smoother, handholds might be a bit more difficult to find.
C McC: Hmm ... I'll risk it. Take 10 again.
GM: You're able to get within about 15' of the opening, but once there you have difficulty finding a reliable way forward. You think you might be able to continue, but it won't be easy. You can't get a great view of the opening, but you can make out what appears to be the symbol of BBEG, faintly etched into the ceiling of the entrance.
C McC: I think I'll climb down now and get the rest of the party. Pretty sure our Cleric has Communal Air Walk.

/scene


thejeff wrote:
Quintain wrote:
Quote:


Nah. Rolling a bunch of dice with no tactics or decisions isn't fun.

You assume that there is nothing to find while climbing said cliff. It's just an obstacle that exists between you and your BBEG.

As a BBEG, the perfect place to hide my mcguffin is in a small cave half way up a 300' cliff.

You guys would never find it...because it is "too tedious" to get to if you actually had to roll dice.

Not just too tedious, though that's part of it.

Too deadly. Or still perfectly safe if your climb roll is high enough.

Mind you with Take 10 rules, you could still put the cave in the cliff and have the climber notice it. You could even do something like have the basic climb at a DC that could be done with Take 10, but have it harder to cross over to the cave once you spot it.
There's a decision point. Makes it more interesting.

It appears you and I had the same idea ...


fretgod99 wrote:
thejeff wrote:
Quintain wrote:
Quote:


Nah. Rolling a bunch of dice with no tactics or decisions isn't fun.

You assume that there is nothing to find while climbing said cliff. It's just an obstacle that exists between you and your BBEG.

As a BBEG, the perfect place to hide my mcguffin is in a small cave half way up a 300' cliff.

You guys would never find it...because it is "too tedious" to get to if you actually had to roll dice.

Not just too tedious, though that's part of it.

Too deadly. Or still perfectly safe if your climb roll is high enough.

Mind you with Take 10 rules, you could still put the cave in the cliff and have the climber notice it. You could even do something like have the basic climb at a DC that could be done with Take 10, but have it harder to cross over to the cave once you spot it.
There's a decision point. Makes it more interesting.

It appears you and I had the same idea ...

Yeah, though I was thinking that the climber would actually risk rolling for it. Just to keep Quintain happy.:)


thejeff wrote:
fretgod99 wrote:
thejeff wrote:
Quintain wrote:
Quote:


Nah. Rolling a bunch of dice with no tactics or decisions isn't fun.

You assume that there is nothing to find while climbing said cliff. It's just an obstacle that exists between you and your BBEG.

As a BBEG, the perfect place to hide my mcguffin is in a small cave half way up a 300' cliff.

You guys would never find it...because it is "too tedious" to get to if you actually had to roll dice.

Not just too tedious, though that's part of it.

Too deadly. Or still perfectly safe if your climb roll is high enough.

Mind you with Take 10 rules, you could still put the cave in the cliff and have the climber notice it. You could even do something like have the basic climb at a DC that could be done with Take 10, but have it harder to cross over to the cave once you spot it.
There's a decision point. Makes it more interesting.

It appears you and I had the same idea ...
Yeah, though I was thinking that the climber would actually risk rolling for it. Just to keep Quintain happy.:)

I almost put in a choose your own adventure hook there at the end.

Perhaps had Climby fallen to her death inconvenience, it would punch up the joke about the Cleric casting Communal Air Walk.


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Quintain wrote:
Saldiven wrote:

Gaming at Quintain's table sounds irredeemably tedious if he expects people to make checks like this. If he expected my character to make 20 checks to climb something he could take-10 on, I'd never come back to another session. All the required dice rolling is a boring waste of time for the party as a whole.

I wonder how many other people posting in this thread would come back?

I guess challenges are too much for you. [...]

For me, the fun is in the journey, not the destination.

Assuming -- against my better judgement -- that you're writing in good faith.... No. Challenges aren't too much. But pointless and boring challenges are pointless and boring

It's not that they're too much, it's that they're too little. Too little drama, too little relevance, too little reason to care.


Quintain wrote:

You assume that there is nothing to find while climbing said cliff. It's just an obstacle that exists between you and your BBEG.

As a BBEG, the perfect place to hide my mcguffin is in a small cave half way up a 300' cliff.

You guys would never find it...because it is "too tedious" to get to if you actually had to roll dice.

I don't expect your players would find it either, since none of them would survive the climb with your proposed change.

Go ahead and find your favorite dice roller and make the climb. I just tried it and failed 4 out of 4 attempts. Your proposed change doesn't add challenge. It just makes failure a virtual certainty.


Zilvar2k11 wrote:
Quintain wrote:

You assume that there is nothing to find while climbing said cliff. It's just an obstacle that exists between you and your BBEG.

As a BBEG, the perfect place to hide my mcguffin is in a small cave half way up a 300' cliff.

You guys would never find it...because it is "too tedious" to get to if you actually had to roll dice.

I don't expect your players would find it either, since none of them would survive the climb with your proposed change.

Go ahead and find your favorite dice roller and make the climb. I just tried it and failed 4 out of 4 attempts. Your proposed change doesn't add challenge. It just makes failure a virtual certainty.

You're right.

Without healing, the outcome are either you're dead or you quit.

With healing, and being high level enough (for HP), the outcome become "you succeed, but you used X charges of your wand(s)"


Orfamay Quest wrote:
Quintain wrote:
Saldiven wrote:

Gaming at Quintain's table sounds irredeemably tedious if he expects people to make checks like this. If he expected my character to make 20 checks to climb something he could take-10 on, I'd never come back to another session. All the required dice rolling is a boring waste of time for the party as a whole.

I wonder how many other people posting in this thread would come back?

I guess challenges are too much for you. [...]

For me, the fun is in the journey, not the destination.

Assuming -- against my better judgement -- that you're writing in good faith.... No. Challenges aren't too much. But pointless and boring challenges are pointless and boring

It's not that they're too much, it's that they're too little. Too little drama, too little relevance, too little reason to care.

To second here on a 300' cliff assuming that only one person needs to climb that's 40 rolls if a whole 4 man party needs up there that's 160 rolls. If we assume low level (1-3) and a dc 15 cliff we have a characters with (assuming no one dumped str) rolls of 0-14 (14 being max ranks skill focus and 20 str.) the guy with Zero has to roll a 15 or better to go up and the guy on the top end doesn't even have to roll. So if we assume someone on each end of the spectrum then we can assume that no roll guy will drop a knotted rope or something to drop the dc some for everyone else lets say to a dc 10. our low end guy still cant move up 50% of the time and each time he doesn't move up there is a 50% chance of him falling possibly to his death if he is near the top.


Avh wrote:

You're right.

Without healing, the outcome are either you're dead or you quit.

With healing, and being high level enough (for HP), the outcome become "you succeed, but you used X charges of your wand(s)"

Even with healing, at a 90% failure rate when 'fall only on a 1' is true, even with healing failure is -probably- the only option. Or you eschew the use of the climb skill altogether because it's terrifically unheroic to fail in the manner that the proposed change dictates.


I think the problem here is that people are operating under the misconception that Taking 10 cares about penalty for failure. It doesn't. All it cares about is whether or not you are in immediate danger or distracted. The penalty for failure is for Taking 20. So to answer the original question: yes, you can Take 10 when climbing. That doesn't mean that you will be successful. It just means that you did an average job.

As for the Climb speed argument, remember that Taking 10 is still making a skill check. That's what that portion of the description is talking about. It's saying that you don't automatically climb everything. It just means that you are subject to the same penalties and bonuses as everyone else and you get a +8 to your check to boot! You can also Take 10 regardless of circumstances.


Bob_Loblaw wrote:

I think the problem here is that people are operating under the misconception that Taking 10 cares about penalty for failure. It doesn't. All it cares about is whether or not you are in immediate danger or distracted. The penalty for failure is for Taking 20. So to answer the original question: yes, you can Take 10 when climbing. That doesn't mean that you will be successful. It just means that you did an average job.

As for the Climb speed argument, remember that Taking 10 is still making a skill check. That's what that portion of the description is talking about. It's saying that you don't automatically climb everything. It just means that you are subject to the same penalties and bonuses as everyone else and you get a +8 to your check to boot! You can also Take 10 regardless of circumstances.

No, that's not the problem here. Everyone, including Quintain knows that.

He just wants to make you roll and take the chance of failure because he thinks it'll be more fun. He also apparently doesn't grasp the probabilities that have been spelled out again and again because he still thinks anyone's going to succeed at a 300' climb if they have to roll.

Shadow Lodge

I don't see why anyone would want to make someone do 40 climb checks when last night I had a guy fail a jump check of a 15ft wide chasm that was 300ft deep when there was a perfectly functional bridge in front of him.


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Despite the danger, Rabbit possesses an ability to use knowledge checks and take ten.

10+12 = 22. Success! I identified a troll.

I think the proposition made earlier by Quintain that equates "taking 10 on climb checks" as "giving everything to the players" is sad. Not old school, just sad.

I get that you want climbing to be dangerous and use your own house rule. What do your players think? Do they come back for more than one campaign? Do they love it and how much you it makes you happy to have this house rule?

Ive sent my imp Wesley to your PCs to send a box of rings of feather fall to your players. I don't want them to get hurt further. I also included pillows and sheets so they can settle in for a long night of Clifffinder.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Companion Subscriber

You already know RAW, and RAI, and how your approach a style that creates more "realism", or even more fun.

The Climb are not as accurate to real life, as some might prefer, but the removal of Take 10 does not improve the "realism" factor.

It does, well, nothing, except waste time, and create silly situations, that actually pull away from, what could be called "realism", and just sort sticks it to players.

I won't tell you how to have fun, but I have a hard time seeing how this stance adds to it, and also does so for your players.

This all seems to be malice, and/or misunderstanding, and a push towards a result, that does not align with what you state is your desired result.

I can't, well, really do, or say, anything more at this point, except say, good luck to you, and your players, as it seems that's all you really have.


Yes Absolutely


KenderKin wrote:
Yes Absolutely

NO! Not even possible!


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Quintain's problem is that he wants climbing to be unreasonably dangerous.

An easy climb is an easy climb, regardless of how high off the ground the climber might be. A hard climb is difficult, regardless of how high above the ground it is.

Quintain's position on climbing is evidence that he neither has experience in climbing himself, nor has he bothered to research climbing in general. Even on regular old Earth, climbing deaths are very rare when measured in a deaths-per-hour from climbing standpoint. His method would have trained climbers taking terrible falls on virtually every 200'+ climbing excursion they take, when in actuality, such falls are vanishingly rare.

Let's take a look at a tremendously difficult mountain climb: Mount Everest. Over 4,000 people have climbed Mount Everest (this doesn't include those who attempted the climb but couldn't handle the cold or altitude and turned back). Less than 200 people have died trying to climb it; for a massive 5% rate. (This includes people who died from exposure, so the number who died from falls is even smaller.) The distance from base camp to summit is over 11,000 feet. So, there's a 5% failure rate on a tremendously difficult climb of 11,000 feet, but Quintain wants a 5% failure rate (at least) on every 10'-30' distance climbed.

If you examine less strenuous climbs, the failure rate is significantly lower. Examine the "French Spider-man," Alain Robert. This gentleman has climbed 71 different exterior structures with NO EQUIPMENT outside of a chalk bag over the last 18 years with no falls. Among trained climbers, falls are quite rare, or there wouldn't be very many trained climbers. Additionally, trained climbers who use climbing aids (rope, piton, carabiner, etc.) know how to use their equipment to reduce any fall to a matter of feet before being halted by their equipment, never coming close to the ground.

Having ranks in Climb in Pathfinder indicates a degree of training and experience in that skill. It's asinine that a heroic, fantasy RPG character would be less skilled at climbing than a weekend warrior climber in real world Earth.

Dark Archive

Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

Not all cliffs are stagnant in their climbs. Sometimes cliffs do get easier or harder to climb* in certain places. So let the PCs take 10 until they get to an area where taking 10 causes them to miss the DC but not enough to fall off.

DM: You all stare at the 300 ft before.

Ftr1: I take 10 and begin to climb.

DM: You make it about 100 ft when you reach for a hand hold and it slips. Luckily you didnt fall, but you realize that the climb has gotten harder.

Ftr1: (Looking down at his friends and then looking up knowing that someone needs to get up there) Ok, I continue on but I need to try harder (rolling die).....

This saves the tedious case of rolling 20, 30, 40 etc dice rolls but still gives you a chance to give that element of danger to a PC who needs something more than taking 10...

Thats just how I run games....

edit: word substitution


DmRrostarr wrote:

Not all cliffs are stagnant in their climbs. Sometimes cliffs do get easier or harder to climb* in certain places. So let the PCs take 10 until they get to an area where taking 10 causes them to miss the DC but not enough to fall off.

DM: You all stare at the 300 ft before.

Ftr1: I take 10 and begin to climb.

DM: You make it about 100 ft when you reach for a hand hold and it slips. Luckily you didnt fall, but you realize that the climb has gotten harder.

Ftr1: (Looking down at his friends and then looking up knowing that someone needs to get up there) Ok, I continue on but I need to try harder (rolling die).....

And then he falls. (Unless you just make it a short harder section.) Because if he needs an 11 to make progress he needs a 6 to not fall and he's got 200' and a lot of rolls to go.

Or if he says he'll climb back down, you can tell him downclimbing is harder, which it really is, so he'll need to roll to get back down too. :)

I think the key thing to take from this whole discussion is that long climbs don't work in PF.

Dark Archive

Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
thejeff wrote:
DmRrostarr wrote:

Not all cliffs are stagnant in their climbs. Sometimes cliffs do get easier or harder to climb* in certain places. So let the PCs take 10 until they get to an area where taking 10 causes them to miss the DC but not enough to fall off.

DM: You all stare at the 300 ft before.

Ftr1: I take 10 and begin to climb.

DM: You make it about 100 ft when you reach for a hand hold and it slips. Luckily you didnt fall, but you realize that the climb has gotten harder.

Ftr1: (Looking down at his friends and then looking up knowing that someone needs to get up there) Ok, I continue on but I need to try harder (rolling die).....

And then he falls. (Unless you just make it a short harder section.) Because if he needs an 11 to make progress he needs a 6 to not fall and he's got 200' and a lot of rolls to go.

Or if he says he'll climb back down, you can tell him downclimbing is harder, which it really is, so he'll need to roll to get back down too. :)

I think the key thing to take from this whole discussion is that long climbs don't work in PF.

Agreed long climbs don't work.

My point is that the maybe 290 ft of a 300 ft climb can easily be taken care of by taking 10, but there is a small section of the cliff that requires a little more attention...


DmRrostarr wrote:


My point is that the maybe 290 ft of a 300 ft climb can easily be taken care of by taking 10, but there is a small section of the cliff that requires a little more attention...

And this adds,... what, exactly?

As thejeff says, if this "small section of the cliff that requires a little more attention" is actually an issue, he'll simply climb down again and say "Hey, Gandalf, it's not climbable. Cast levitate, will ya?"

So, basically, you've now provided the character with a number of choices, none of them fun.

You have now

1) Given the player a chance to roll a d20 against a chance of ignominious and unheroic death, for no benefit whatsoever.

OR

2) Given the player a chance to demonstrate, once again, that playing a non-caster in Pathfinder is simply a way to be a loser who can't do anything useful.

OR

3) Demonstrated to the player that no matter how much planning and forethought goes into attempting a task, the GM will arbitrarily screw him over because SUCCESS IS NOT AN OPTION.


Orfamay Quest wrote:
DmRrostarr wrote:


My point is that the maybe 290 ft of a 300 ft climb can easily be taken care of by taking 10, but there is a small section of the cliff that requires a little more attention...

And this adds,... what, exactly?

As thejeff says, if this "small section of the cliff that requires a little more attention" is actually an issue, he'll simply climb down again and say "Hey, Gandalf, it's not climbable. Cast levitate, will ya?"

Nah, if it's a short section and not that much harder, it's probably worth trying it. Especially at lower levels, when even levitate and the equivalent are scarce resources.

It's the long, multiple roll, climbs that aren't viable.


Orfamay Quest wrote:


Demonstrated to the player that no matter how much planning and forethought goes into attempting a task, the GM will arbitrarily screw him over because SUCCESS IS NOT AN OPTION.

THIS IS THE ANSWER. But seriously, I've encountered a GM that played this way. we're lv12 and I'm a wizard 1st fight has SR 31, I've spent a lot of resources on spell pen, feats and items, so I pass 3/4 times. GM gets upset that the fight was too easy and says he's going to up the SR to make it harder. We're lv12 and I have a +15 stealth and I'm invisible, I get spotted by the lv20 ninja's that patrol the town at night, but can't be seen or detected with magic. Or that none of a party of 6 spotted the HUGE DRAGON that was hiding 10ft from us.

Some GM's hate that things that were hard at lv2 are easy at lv12, or that something that is hard for a normal lv2 is easy for someone who invested to be good at that. Some GM's feel that the players should always have about a 50% chance to succeed or fail.


Chess Pwn wrote:


THIS IS THE ANSWER. But seriously, I've encountered a GM that played this way. we're lv12 and I'm a wizard 1st fight has SR 31, I've spent a lot of resources on spell pen, feats and items, so I pass 3/4 times. GM gets upset that the fight was too easy and says he's going to up the SR to make it harder.

Yup. This is a problem.

A character/player who spends resources to be good at something has demonstrated that she wants to be good at that thing. Presumably there's a reason you took Spell Penetration instead of, say, Craft Wand.... and it might have something to do with wanting to penetrate spell resistance. For the GM to say "oh, well, I'll just up everyone's SR by the equivalent number of points" is the same thing as saying "oh, I guess you didn't get a feat this level after all."

And it's the same thing when you up the AC because the fighter hits too often, or when you boost everyone's CMD because the tetori's grapple is too good, or stop using anything but vermin and undead because the witch's slumber hex DCs are too high.

Because players are supposed to be good at what they want to be good at.


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OVERTHINKING.


Yeah, some players are good at that too.


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Quintain wrote:

As a BBEG, the perfect place to hide my mcguffin is in a small cave half way up a 300' cliff.

You guys would never find it...because it is "too tedious" to get to if you actually had to roll dice.

No he wouldn't - just like EVERYONE ELSE, he FAILED at least one of his 20 climb checks and fell to his death trying to hide it - your mcguffin is lying on the ground at the base of the cliff, along with the corpse of your BBEG.


DM_Blake wrote:
Quintain wrote:

As a BBEG, the perfect place to hide my mcguffin is in a small cave half way up a 300' cliff.

You guys would never find it...because it is "too tedious" to get to if you actually had to roll dice.

No he wouldn't - just like EVERYONE ELSE, he FAILED at least one of his 20 climb checks and fell to his death trying to hide it - your mcguffin is lying on the ground at the base of the cliff, along with the corpse of your BBEG.

Nope, he used gear to prevent himself from falling.


Quintain wrote:
DM_Blake wrote:
Quintain wrote:

As a BBEG, the perfect place to hide my mcguffin is in a small cave half way up a 300' cliff.

You guys would never find it...because it is "too tedious" to get to if you actually had to roll dice.

No he wouldn't - just like EVERYONE ELSE, he FAILED at least one of his 20 climb checks and fell to his death trying to hide it - your mcguffin is lying on the ground at the base of the cliff, along with the corpse of your BBEG.
Nope, he used gear to prevent himself from falling.

Or just used magic since it's apparently the best way of navigating climb checks in your world.


Quintain wrote:
DM_Blake wrote:
Quintain wrote:

As a BBEG, the perfect place to hide my mcguffin is in a small cave half way up a 300' cliff.

You guys would never find it...because it is "too tedious" to get to if you actually had to roll dice.

No he wouldn't - just like EVERYONE ELSE, he FAILED at least one of his 20 climb checks and fell to his death trying to hide it - your mcguffin is lying on the ground at the base of the cliff, along with the corpse of your BBEG.
Nope, he used gear to prevent himself from falling.

So when we kill the BBEG we get his gear and prevent ourselves from falling. No risk of failure, so now we can Take-10, right?

How have you made the challenge more interesting?

Grand Lodge

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Pathfinder Companion Subscriber

More interesting for himself.

It's a different DM style.

It's not about playing with others, it's about playing with yourself, and having others there to watch.

Some groups are in to that.


blackbloodtroll wrote:

More interesting for himself.

It's a different DM style.

It's not about playing with others, it's about playing with yourself, and having others there to watch.

Some groups are in to that.

I still think he's just not getting the probability part. Still thinking of it as fun risk, rather than nearly guaranteed failure, even with the smallest possible chance of falling.


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Or, just amused at the responses it elicits.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Companion Subscriber

Geez... and people call me a troll.

All I ever did was sleep under a bridge.


thejeff wrote:
blackbloodtroll wrote:

More interesting for himself.

It's a different DM style.

It's not about playing with others, it's about playing with yourself, and having others there to watch.

Some groups are in to that.

I still think he's just not getting the probability part. Still thinking of it as fun risk, rather than nearly guaranteed failure, even with the smallest possible chance of falling.

You realize that dice rolls aren't *ever* evenly distributed over the course of any number of rolls themselves.

You guys crunching the numbers and determining probability are assuming even distribution of rolls.

That is not the case.


Quote:


How have you made the challenge more interesting?

By putting the mcguffin in the one place you'll never go, thus making the BBEG invulnerable (or at least having an easy escape).


Quintain wrote:
thejeff wrote:
blackbloodtroll wrote:

More interesting for himself.

It's a different DM style.

It's not about playing with others, it's about playing with yourself, and having others there to watch.

Some groups are in to that.

I still think he's just not getting the probability part. Still thinking of it as fun risk, rather than nearly guaranteed failure, even with the smallest possible chance of falling.

You realize that dice rolls aren't *ever* evenly distributed over the course of any number of rolls themselves.

You guys crunching the numbers and determining probability are assuming even distribution of rolls.

That is not the case.

The more rolls you make, the more likely they'll fit the curve.

Which is why we're talking in probabilities. When I say the chance of not rolling a 1 in 40 rolls of a d20 is (0.95)^40 ~= 13%, that's not assuming an even distribution. It just is the chance of not rolling at least one 1. (Chance of falling is actually higher, since you reroll 2-6 and could roll a 1 then.)

Which just confirms my statement. You don't understand the probabilities.

We are assuming fair dice, but that's a necessary assumption in any discussion of dice rolling probability.


Quintain wrote:
Quote:


How have you made the challenge more interesting?
By putting the mcguffin in the one place you'll never go, thus making the BBEG invulnerable (or at least having an easy escape).

There are plenty of places you could put it where the party won't accidentally discover it. You could for example put it halfway up a cliff the party has no reason to climb. Then they wouldn't find it whether you allowed Take 10 or not.

Or put on an island he teleported to half the world away.
Or at the bottom of a well.

Any of those, including the original cliff, the party could and would get to if they had any reason to go there, but wouldn't just by chance.

The cliff they might actually find, if they decide to levitate someone up with a rope rather than go around, or they have a climber who won't fall even on a 1 or probably plenty of other options. That don't involve rolling climb checks until you fall and die.

Grand Lodge

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Pathfinder Adventure, Rulebook Subscriber; Pathfinder Battles Case Subscriber
Quintain wrote:
You realize that dice rolls aren't *ever* evenly distributed over the course of any number of rolls themselves.

They don't have to be. The more you roll the dice, the higher the chance of a 1 coming up.

We're not saying that the rolls of your players will be evenly distributed. We're saying the more that you roll, the more likely they will fail it, to the point of near absolute certainty thereof. Because the dice generate a standard distribution.

Or are you saying your players never roll below 10?


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Climbing the cliff:
1d20 ⇒ 9
7.5'
1d20 ⇒ 15
15'
1d20 ⇒ 5
No Progress
1d20 ⇒ 6
No Progress
1d20 ⇒ 12
22.5'
1d20 ⇒ 18
30'
1d20 ⇒ 11
37.5'
1d20 ⇒ 10
52.5'
1d20 ⇒ 18
60'
1d20 ⇒ 5
No Progress
1d20 ⇒ 19
67.5'
1d20 ⇒ 7
82.5'
1d20 ⇒ 11
90'
1d20 ⇒ 9
97.5'
1d20 ⇒ 10
120'
1d20 ⇒ 1
Fall!
12d6 ⇒ (3, 4, 3, 4, 1, 2, 2, 6, 6, 4, 5, 4) = 44
Did you survive? Try again?

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Society Subscriber

Boots of the cat. Martials 1st purchase in that kind of campaign (or a pearl of power 1st and blackmail the wizard into using it for levitate)


Boots of the cat wouldn't help you make the climb rolls, it just would take more falls to kill you.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Companion Subscriber

Guess someone will need this:

Someone said wrote:

Shingle Runner

Source: Curse of the Crimson Throne Player's Guide pg. 6
As a child, you spent a lot of time in the Shingles, the interconnected rooftops that span much of Korvosa. You are particularly adept at climbing, jumping, and avoiding falls.

Prerequisites: Dex 13, Acrobatic.

Benefit: You gain a +2 bonus on Climb and Acrobatics checks, and may take 10 on Climb checks even when distracted. If you fall, you automatically reduce the damage taken by the fall by one die, as if you had fallen 10 less feet. This reduction in damage stacks with the Acrobatics checks to further reduce falling damage.


thejeff wrote:

Climbing the cliff:

Fall!
12d6
Did you survive? Try again?

You forgot a few things:

1) Rolling a 1 isn't automatic failure.
2) You can get gear modifiers: See Spider harness
3) You get a saving throw to catch yourself in the case of a fall.

You guys are ignoring a lot of rules when you start talking your probabilities and quips about "auto failure".


Quote:


Benefit: You gain a +2 bonus on Climb and Acrobatics checks, and may take 10 on Climb checks even when distracted. If you fall, you automatically reduce the damage taken by the fall by one die, as if you had fallen 10 less feet. This reduction in damage stacks with the Acrobatics checks to further reduce falling damage.

I like it! Nice find.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure, Rulebook Subscriber; Pathfinder Battles Case Subscriber
Quintain wrote:
You guys are ignoring a lot of rules when you start talking your probabilities and quips about "auto failure".

So you hate take 10 but are fine with auto-succeed bonuses.


@Quintain:

Even if a character only falls on a roll of 1, once you get to the point that 14 checks have to be made, the character has greater than a 50% chance of falling on at least one of those checks. If a character has to make 20 checks, he has only a 35.85% chance of making every single one, and that's if they only fall on a 1.

If a character could normally succeed on a 10 (thereby making taking 10 just barely possible) and taking a fall on a five or less, the numbers are much tougher. Every required check after the second means the character is more than 50% likely to fall. If only 10 checks are required, there is only a 5.6% chance that all ten will not result in a fall.

http://stattrek.com/online-calculator/binomial.aspx

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