This question applies to Oracles and Mysteries as well.
For example, the Trickery domain is wonderful and fun and the god(s) of thieves, assassins, etc. do all have their clergy, but the generic divine spell list is AWFUL for a stealthy, murderous assassin/thief type character.
Or Fire/Sun Cleric having only a tiny handful of fire based options.
Or a Water Cleric having even less than a tiny handful of water/ice based spells.
The Domain/Mystery bonus spells can only go so far. How do you reconcile the "few-trick pony" divine list with the various supported archetypes that don't fall in line?
You could use Spheres of Power? Or work with your GM to develop an alternate spell list. At the very least, I think it would be reasonable to allow you to prepare domain spells in your regular spell slots.
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Here's one well thought out explanation of why Divine Casters get access to all domains, even those in opposition[Order of the Stick]. The dwarf tied up by psychic tentacles is the soul of Durkon, a Lawful Good cleric of Thor. The free dwarf is the evil spirit possessing Durkon's vampire body, who is a Cleric of Hel. Thor just started throwing lightning bolts at the party's airship, and vampire 'Durkon', secretly a cleric of Hel, casts Weather Control to block Thor's lightning.
Not all clergy are clerics or oracles. Some might be inquisitors, some might not be divine casters, some aren't casters at all.
I think the point is being missed.
Consider you are a cleric of the god of Thieves. Maybe you read the Erevis Cale series and really want to emulate the character? Who knows.
So midnight arrives and it's time to prepare your spells. What do you prepare?
Bless? Protection from X? Summon Monster #? Divine Power? Righteous Might?
Cleric spells can be very good, but your list of options is in zero ways thematic with a shadowy character who is a devoted Cleric of the god of thieves, so what do you do?
Do you go "Bad Touch" and pretend that it makes sense?
Clerics of Healing/Protection are easy to prepare spells for.
Clerics of Destruction are as well.
Cleric Necromancers too.
Cleric Summoners even.
But if your god is Umberlee? Silvanus? Thor? How do you make your daily spell picks fit, or do you just ignore every domain that doesn't already fit with Cleric list options?
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Nope, you missed the point. If an inquisitor or whatever fits the character better, play an inquisitor (or whatever), not a cleric. If the class mechanics are wrong for the concept, use a different class to represent your cleric of the god of thieves.
Getting too attached to the class name is what makes people play rogues.
I think there's a missing feature from Pathfinder: a class that is really focused on a specific kind of magic and no other. Probably one with a high BAB and a few features that make them more flexible than a standard martial.
So you might have a character who do some fire spells, and gets some fire damage bonuses in melee, but has no access to any other types of magic. Or a character who just has a few stealth / illusion related spells. Or just some time-related spells, or undead-themed spells. So instead of saying, "I'd better learn Haste and Fireball and Fly", you have to make do with a limited choice of magic.
(Maybe I should invent that class and the dozens of archetypes to go with it. Do people still buy 3PP classes?)
The question is how to make the spells match the Domain/Mystery, not how to make the character match the theme.
I'm just using character examples to illustrate the point, not to say, "I don't know how to make a devote follower of X god."
E.g. Priests of Thor - see warpriest, barbarian or bloodrager.
Silvanus? Druids, hunters and rangers most likely.
Umberlee? Trickier. Maybe druids with the storm druid archetype, or since they seem to be at least partly a soothsayer/protection racket, maybe an inquisitor.
Why assume that clergy have the cleric character class?
There is the theologian archetype, with that you can prepare domain spells in normal spell slots. There is also a somewhat powerful 3.5 feat that allows clerics to spontaneous converse prepared spells to domain spells, i think that the feat was called spontaneous meta focus.
Some Golarion deities add spells to cleric or inquisitor's list directly, regardless if domains. Some of these are in Inner Sea Vods. Doesn't fix the issue but it can help
The cleric is really kind of screwy ... well, most divine classes are to some degree, but the cleric kind of showcases it. Assuming extant gods meddling in mortal affairs, it makes precisely zero sense to me that, for example, a fire god would grant a cleric *any* water spell.
What I would do, if it weren't such a ridiculously involved proposition, would be to completely redo the cleric's spell access. Take the domains and put every spell you think should go under that domain into that domain. So, every spell related to Air is in the Air domain.
The cleric gains access ONLY to the spells of his god's domains, but he does get the spells in all of them. This comprises his entire spell list. If the spell isn't in the god's schtick, you don't get it. (This might even work better with the subdomain system, since it's more granular; make spells for the subdomains, and you get those instead).
The question is how to make the spells match the Domain/Mystery, not how to make the character match the theme.
I'm just using character examples to illustrate the point, not to say, "I don't know how to make a devote follower of X god."
If you're the GM, just change them to something you feel is more appropriate. Not complicated.
I'm with avr. Many of the descriptions of gods call out follower types that often include limited numbers of clerics(Besmara, for one), if any. In that case, choose a different class. Clerics, as a class, just don't make sense for rogue characters. Or fighter characters. Or wizards. The problem is trying to fit the class to the concept, rather than trying to find an appropriate class to fit the concept. If you need a Cleric that is also a Rogue and also a Wizard, you are playing the wrong game, friend.
The cleric is really kind of screwy ... well, most divine classes are to some degree, but the cleric kind of showcases it. Assuming extant gods meddling in mortal affairs, it makes precisely zero sense to me that, for example, a fire god would grant a cleric *any* water spell.
What I would do, if it weren't such a ridiculously involved proposition, would be to completely redo the cleric's spell access. Take the domains and put every spell you think should go under that domain into that domain. So, every spell related to Air is in the Air domain.
The cleric gains access ONLY to the spells of his god's domains, but he does get the spells in all of them. This comprises his entire spell list. If the spell isn't in the god's schtick, you don't get it. (This might even work better with the subdomain system, since it's more granular; make spells for the subdomains, and you get those instead).
But this would hamstring the Cleric, and basically just make them an elementalist Wizard. It wouldn't be terribly involved, but it would make for a pretty awful class. They would be less flexible but exactly as powerful as a Cleric or Wizard with a similar thematic kit.
|
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Umm. If you want to play a Cleric, and want to keep your spells thematic, just pick thematic spells and ignore the others.
Alternately, play a more appropriate class with a limited spell selection, such as Inquisitor. An Inquisitor is an excellent choice for a 'divine rogue' type character, or even for the clergy of a God of Thieves. The name 'clergy' does not imply the class 'cleric'.
Finally, just use the 'Domain Agreement' in OotS.
|
Some themes are in short supply on the cleric's spell list. They do not get a single first level trickery-themed spell.
Inquisitors don't make fantastic divine tricksters, either. Their spell list is much more focused on finding things out than concealing things. They get Disguise Self, Invisibility, and Nondetection, and that's about it. They notably lack charm/suggestion, Glibness, the entire line of Image spells, and higher level illusions like Mislead and Seeming (or indeed any illusion that can target something other than themselves). Really none of the 5th or 6th level inquisitor spells strike me as suitable for a trickster. Domain spells don't fix this because inquisitors don't get them.
Druids can fill in for some elemental clergy but they come with their own baggage that might not fit the deity in question. For example, a forge-god might appreciate the fire and earth spells on the druid list but not the prohibition against wearing metal armour. Not to mention that Wild Shape, the class's signature ability, doesn't make sense for all deities. The huntress deity in my current campaign is a sworn enemy of shapechangers. A clergy member who used wild shape would be heretical and executed by their own church, but the cleric & inquisitor spell lists lack the nature magic she should grant. Until the Hunter came out she didn't have great options for clergy.
And while your clergy don't have to be divine casters it doesn't make sense for a deity not to invest their chosen servants with some form of divine power.
Some themes are in short supply on the cleric's spell list. They do not get a single first level trickery-themed spell.
Inquisitors don't make fantastic divine tricksters, either. Their spell list is much more focused on finding things out than concealing things. They get Disguise Self, Invisibility, and Nondetection, and that's about it. They notably lack charm/suggestion, Glibness, the entire line of Image spells, and higher level illusions like Mislead and Seeming (or indeed any illusion that can target something other than themselves). Really none of the 5th or 6th level inquisitor spells strike me as suitable for a trickster. Domain spells don't fix this because inquisitors don't get them.
Druids can fill in for some elemental clergy but they come with their own baggage that might not fit the deity in question. For example, a forge-god might appreciate the fire and earth spells on the druid list but not the prohibition against wearing metal armour. Not to mention that Wild Shape, the class's signature ability, doesn't make sense for all deities. The huntress deity in my current campaign is a sworn enemy of shapechangers. A clergy member who used wild shape would be heretical and executed by their own church, but the cleric & inquisitor spell lists lack the nature magic she should grant. Until the Hunter came out she didn't have great options for clergy.
And while your clergy don't have to be divine casters it doesn't make sense for a deity not to invest their chosen servants with some form of divine power.
This person gets it.
There is the theologian archetype, with that you can prepare domain spells in normal spell slots. There is also a somewhat powerful 3.5 feat that allows clerics to spontaneous converse prepared spells to domain spells, i think that the feat was called spontaneous meta focus.
Now that i am in a computer and not in my tablet, this is the theologian archetype.
Unfortunately i don't have access to my 3.5 books right now so if anyone can post the spontaneous metafocus please do.
The special spellcasting rules per deity are worth taking a look at. Some even get additional spontaneous cast spells, like Brigh who gets make whole and mending spontaneous like cure spells.
Personally I rather like the idea that the priestly orders of many gods don't necessarily include a lot of clerics and while you can make a cleric for any god in some cases that cleric is going to be the odd one out.
And really it's not all tough if you want to play a cleric that fits the flavour of their deity. For the case mentioned here of a stealth cleric simply dip a level or two to pick up some class features that you feel that your cleric might be missing. Then focus more on utilizing your domain abilities (which tend to be more focused on suiting the personality of your god) over spell casting and channeling. Heck some domains even come with additional class skills to make the process even easier.
You sort expect that a cleric may have to work a bit harder to excel at some things. Diverse archetypes are always nice but I have to say I'm not particularly fond of solutions that may vastly increase the scope of a class. Seems to defeat the point of classes to begin with.