Large and tiny creatures wielding whips - what's their range?

[Carcharoth]

In this thread the first post is marked as having been answered in the FAQ, but I can't find any info on whips in the FAQ. Rather than continuing to necro that thread I figured a new one would be better. Given that enlarge and reduce person are first level spells, this is something that could come up fairly easily. Many points are raised in the other thread, but ultimately I didn't see a definitive answer, the closest thing being a JJ forum post. Is there a solid answer on this out these questions out there?

If I'm a medium character wielding a whip, and I cast enlarge person, what is my reach with the whip as a now large creature?

If I'm a small and wielding a whip, and I cast reduce person, what is my reach with the whip as a now tiny creature?

If as a DM I wanted to equip a cloud giant (huge creature) with a whip, what would its reach with the whip be?

Same as above, but with gargantuan, colossal, diminutive, and fine sized creatures?

[Weirdo]

RAW, 15ft for all whips.

Reasonable interpretation: triple the natural reach of the creature (possibly 5ft for those with 0ft reach).

EDIT: A balor (large, natural reach 10ft) threatens 20ft with its whip. So maybe neither of the above? Natural reach + 10ft?

[UnArcaneElection]

^Wonder if that's actually an error in the Balor monster entry, which has been criticized on these boards as being broken in the Balor's disfavor.

[Barathos]

Weirdo wrote:

RAW, 15ft for all whips.

Reasonable interpretation: triple the natural reach of the creature (possibly 5ft for those with 0ft reach).

EDIT: A balor (large, natural reach 10ft) threatens 20ft with its whip. So maybe neither of the above? Natural reach + 10ft?

Using Natural Reach + 10' seems reasonable, I'll use that if the devs don't answer.

[Weirdo]

UnArcaneElection wrote:

^Wonder if that's actually an error in the Balor monster entry, which has been criticized on these boards as being broken in the Balor's disfavor.

Very possible. Does seem odd that he'd have the same reach with a properly sized whip as with a longspear - and for Huge or larger creatures the longspear would have more reach.

[Thefurmonger]

There is a thread on here where JJ gives the answers.

I **THINK** what he said was <Small=5' reach
Med+ is triple. and yes he knows the Balor does not follow this formula.

[Game Master]

JJ is a great guy and all but he'll be the first to admit he's not an official rules source, and has been repeatedly wrong in the past. JJ should not be cited when trying to determine actual rulings.

[Kazaan]

The rules define reach and give examples that describe how it functions:

PRD wrote:

Reach Weapons: Glaives, guisarmes, lances, longspears, ranseurs, and whips are reach weapons. A reach weapon is a melee weapon that allows its wielder to strike at targets that aren't adjacent to him. Most reach weapons double the wielder's natural reach, meaning that a typical Small or Medium wielder of such a weapon can attack a creature 10 feet away, but not a creature in an adjacent square. A typical Large character wielding a reach weapon of the appropriate size can attack a creature 15 or 20 feet away, but not adjacent creatures or creatures up to 10 feet away.

Most (some exceptions apply) reach weapons double the wielder's natural reach. So reach weapons work by multiplying your natural reach. If your natural reach is 5', you double that to 10'. If it's 10', you double it out to 20'. If it's 15', you double it out to 30'. You also exclude your normal natural reach without a reach weapon. If your natural reach is 10', you double your reach out to 20', but exclude squares out to 10' (your natural reach). By applying these principals to the Whip, we can see that the whip (written, as most weapons, from a default of a medium wielder) allows you to attack out to 15' which means it triples your natural reach. It also omits the caveat of the minimum reach. So, a creature with 10' natural reach should be able to attack out to 30' with a whip based on the description and examples of how the reach property functions.

Regarding <small creatures, they do require finagling as, with a natural reach of 0', double that is still 0', but the rules clearly call out that a tiny creature with a reach weapon threatens at 5' for various creatures such as the twigjack. In certain other creatures, such as the sagari, they list their natural reach not at 0' but, rather, as 2-1/2 feat. In both cases, we see, clearly, that for tiny creatures, they can at least attack out to 5' with a normal reach weapon (ie. longspear). The best answer I've seen is to count a creature with 0' reach as if they had 5' reach and do the reach calculation as normal (2x for most reach weapons, 3x for whips), but subtract 5' of reach from the result for each size category below small. So a tiny creature with, say, a longspear treats their 0' reach as 5', doubles it out to 10', then subtracts 5' to get a final weapon reach of 5' (and they cannot attack someone within their own square). If this same creature had a whip, you'd triple it out to 15', but subtract 5' for a result of 10' reach with the whip. A diminutive creature would require a whip just to be able to reach out to 5' and a fine creature couldn't reach out of their square even with a whip.

[Weirdo]

Kazaan, that's very sensible.

However, it's not 100% clear by RAW that the exceptions to the "most reach weapons double the wielder's reach" rule also follow the pattern of multiplying natural reach. Nor is the extremely reasonable extrapolation for smaller reach creatures.

Hence this question coming up repeatedly.

[Kazaan]

Few things in life are ever going to be 100% clear. But it'd be inefficient to try to make it 100% clear; the book would weigh 3 metric tons. Thus, we refer to Occam's Razor. There are multiple valid interpretations of the rules. Thus, we use the one that requires the fewest additional assumptions that still fits the raw data as best as it can. We have a basic rule that states Reach works on a principal of a "reach factor"; x2 by default. Whips are an exception, but it's baseless to say the manner of their exception defies the principal of a "reach factor". My explanation is very sensible and, moreover, it is the most logical interpretation requiring the fewest additional assumptions given all available rules and data points. Thus, until new information comes to light (ie. an official errata or FAQ), it should be the answer presumed to be correct.

[Weirdo]

I agree, your interpretation is the most reasonable one. It is the interpretation I plan to use at my table, including the treatment of smaller creatures which had not previously occurred to me.

However, I am hitting the FAQ button because this question is indeed frequently asked.

That is my sole issue here. Not that there is no reasonable extrapolation, but that it's non-obvious enough that people keep asking the question (especially with the Balor and smaller creatures being a bit odd).

[The Golux]

Alternately if a tiny creature had a reach of 2 1/2 feat (rounded to zero), reach weapons double to 5, and whips triple, then we have a case for whips for tiny creatures being 7 1/2 feet, rounded to 5 also.

[Carcharoth]

Hm, I was hoping that I was crazy and was missing where this info is in the FAQ, since the thread I linked to is (erroneously?) marked as having been answered in it. In practice I'd agree with Kazaan's approach, but I don't want to head to PFS and end up nerfed, and so probably won't risk bringing a whip user until this gets FAQed.

[Carcharoth]

In fact, does anyone know how the previous thread was somehow marked as having been answered in the FAQ?

[NikolaiJuno]

Carcharoth wrote:

In fact, does anyone know how the previous thread was somehow marked as having been answered in the FAQ?

I've herd that they do that because it's the only way to remove the FAQ flag from there system.

[Jeff Merola]

It used to be the only way, yeah. Now they have "no need for response" or something like that.

[Talonhawke]

Well like I said previously in the other thread. Sizing rules aren't really looked at well in PF so barring Dev clarification we may never know how whips work for non M/S creatures.

[Trogdar]

3 times base seems like the most likely.