I love that this post is turning into a real discussion.
The other PC's are pretty decent. We have some good optimization going on. The main thing is just that it's impossible for most other people to do anything since he always seems to have something to handle every situation.
Like I said before, I'd rather do this subtly in game without having to make a big fight out of it IRL. If I can knock his character down in a setting his character feels he excels at, the rest of the party are the kinds of people who will immediately step up to fill the gap. They just don't have the room to stretch as-is. He sees himself as the hero, and he needs to fall.
This is honestly for character development as much as it is for mechanical necessity.
I do like the water dancer idea... but do you think that would work? If he takes one hit from this guy he'll be almost dead. Swashbucklers can't match somebody who pops out that kind of damage.
Also, I'm not sure why he chose Skald. He had bard originally and retrained to better fit flavor I think. The main thing is from Chevalier, with his weapon enchant AND the Bard/skald bonuses, he gets a huge increase on his morale bonuses, so he gets these MASSIVE hits.
Mr. Fishy needs make sure you have properly identified a "munchkin".
1. Is the character powerful?
2. Is he powerful because he is well played and crafted?
3. Is the character seem to be created to disrupt the game or is it a side effect?
A munchkin makes and plays a character that is intended to disrupt the game. Munchkins are selfish and inconsiderate of the table. Is these player a "Munchkin" or an over zealous power gamer?
Power gamers can disrupt a game and do need to be checked but "Munchkins" should be punished for their crimes against the table.
You're looking to take him down without getting caught at it. So, he seems the power gamer over the line.
For the Power gamer: Greater Shadow, shadows, rust monster...Destroy his gear and lower his stats temporally.
For the Munchkin you have to present GM superiority. Use the rules better than him. Construct an NPC that negates his abilities and turns his strengths against him, the rules. Use touch attacks, damage his stats not his HP, and remove his armor without rolls, make it his choice. Offer him a berserking weapon.
At 12th level debuffs help, but mostly just washout his advantages.
Mr. Fishy has had players make super beaters, it's fine as long as they, understand that their playing in a group.
Mr. Fishy doesn't sit at your table, so proceed with caution.
If you're talking about the Courageous weapon property, he's probably using it wrong. Though that's a particularly contentious issue.
A character sheet would help.
If i had it on me, I would surely post it.
And what do you mean about the Courageous weapon being used wrong? Enlighten me if you would.
The fact that they are level 12-13. Without such clarifications from the OP, there is no reason to assume Dark Sun is the setting.You're still not understanding me: You say a 32 AC isn't a big deal, what are you basing that off?EDITED to add:
It is already stated that his AC is only 32. That is not a big deal.
Stop trying to attack the example because you can't hit the logic behind it.
looking at 1 number in a vacuum tells you absolutely nothing. The GM has already stated a 32 AC is high to him in his game, regardless of the setting.In the OP's game at 12th level a 32 AC is high. To say the one person who isn't fitting in with the game parameters is the only one doing it right, is beyond presumptuous.
I wasn't intending that 32 is arbitrarily high, but that when you take into account that the rest of the party is lightly armored or dex-based the 32 seems much bigger in comparison, also considering that our other melee type is a dex-magus with a decent to-hit, I'd prefer someone who can hit the 32 without trying, know what I mean?
The relevant text is this: "In addition, any morale bonus the wielder gains from any other source is increased by half the weapon’s enhancement bonus (minimum 1)."
There's been no official clarification, but when the developers at Hero Lab were asked to 'fix' the Courageous property in their software to achieve the effect listed above, they shared communication with a Paizo developer indicating that the bonus is only meant to apply to Saves. (link)
Since you're the GM, you're fully within your rights to enforce the RAI. Although you'd probably want to grant him a change to the weapon property. But he's probably also completely built his character around this one particular grey area.
Here's my guess:
Barbarian for morale bonuses to Str/Con/Will saves
Cavalier for a morale bonus to attack rolls and one of the orders that adds a morale bonus to damage
Skald (Spell Warrior archetype) to grant a stacking enhancement bonus to weapons
Probably a +1 Furious Courageous weapon.
So he starts up Weapon Song, makes his weapon +2. Rages, so it goes to +4 because of Furious. Now he's adding +2 to any morale bonus he gets. So +6 Str/Con, +4 Will, +3 attacks and damage.
Or something like that.
The problem with building around a single thing like a weapon enchantment is that it all comes falling down with a FAQ. Or a destroyed or disarmed weapon.
I'll note again, though, that while you can defeat the character, you're not doing anything to change the player's mindset.
Disarm him? He'll get a weapon cord or locking gauntlets
Sunder? Fortifying stone
Intensified Burning Disarm? Fire protection/resistance potions
Fix the Courageous loophole? He'll find something else to exploit
etc.
The way to solve this is to fight math with math. Record how many encounters he one-shots. Note how often the rest of the party doesn't get to act. Sit him down and show him--quantitatively--that he is turning a cooperative game into a competitive game of him vs. everyone else.
Unless the other players are happy to let him carry them around. If so, the only one not on the same page is you.
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Here is a barbarian:
** spoiler omitted **...
I like it overall. (Will beat most opponents - lose horribly to others.) But your accuracy numbers seem off.
Melee +3 furious glaive +20/+15/+10 (1d10+15/×3)
He has a BAB of +13, a +8 strength, and a +3 glaive. That's a +24/+19/+14 right there, not to mention Reckless Abandon and anything else.
I must say - everyone talks about how worthless Combat Expertise is. I can tell you right now - against that guy I'd be turning it on ASAP. (The accuracy penalty doesn't matter much since he's easy to hit - and I would NOT want to be hit any more than I can help.)
The real danger for that character is the riders that come with a successful hit. Grab attempts, negative levels, poisons (mitigated by monster Fort), and the occasional brute that still deals 20 damage after DR. But against common NPC enemies, he really is invulnerable.
According to Mark Seifter, the riders only apply if he takes damage. Don't have the link handy. Will try to dig up later.
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The real danger for that character is the riders that come with a successful hit. Grab attempts, negative levels, poisons (mitigated by monster Fort), and the occasional brute that still deals 20 damage after DR. But against common NPC enemies, he really is invulnerable.
Those - plus I was thinking of other class builds which would totally counter it. High AC monks/brawlers (perhaps brawlers moreso because most will have Combat Expertise) with pummeling style are the most obvious since they practically ignore the DR and their high ACs prolong the fight. There are others.
But against mooks - and more standard builds - he is practically invulnerable. (Though a high AC can nearly do the same except being hit on 20s. But then again - this build could be damaged by mooks on crits.)
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Combat expertise
I like it overall. (Will beat most opponents - lose horribly to others.) But your accuracy numbers seem off.
Okay - but
Things of note:
This is with combat expertise off, power attack off, reckless abandon on, and ragining
Also - with that level of accuracy though - you're going to have trouble hitting any tanky characters.
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Glaive is worth 8k. Furious adds +2 to the enhancement while ragingAlso as another note, that is Heroic npc stats and gear. With pc gear it is a very different storyIt's not PC gear level - but it's more than NPC standard. A heroic level 13 NPC should have 27k worth of gear. The glaive alone is worth more than 32k. Drop it to a +2 furious and it'd be about right.
I gotcha. I read "+3 furious glaive" as a +3 enchantment with furious on top of it. Not a +3 bonus with furious on.
Need a dot for later.
Just wanted to echo a few others--trying to beat a minmaxer at their game will just grant them justification for what it is they're doing: See, see?? This is the type of things we face! and so on.
There are a few approaches. Here's some of my favorites:
1. Talk with them, and explain the style of game you're running. Ask them to remake the character.
2. Shift the spotlight. Highlight and reward the type of play you'd like to see. If someone's roleplaying or contributing as a team member, reward this by having NPCs respond, or giving them facetime at the table. Declare roleplay/team/etc. XP rewards and then institute them.
3. If you need to, follow up number 2 by making negative behavior less rewarding. While this can be through numbers, the social aspect works just as well. That is, give it less attention. For example:
Tim the Sluggy wants to go beat up some guards just to show he can, and no one else in the party is in on it...Well, let a few rolls decide the outcome, then move on. Don't dwell on it and give the guy the spotlight.
(I realize some might disagree with my example, and there may be some times to beat up guards, but we're assuming the instance is an overall part of a greater behaviour problem.)
Minmaxers like to "win." Turn "winning" into the behavior you want to see makes them want it, too.
4. You could also institute "bennies" for positive behavior. Being a good team member* during a session is worth one bennie, for example. Getting into a shouting match with the DM/other players isn't.
Bennies could be used for adding a 1d6 to a roll at opportune times.
This is another play on--being a good player makes your character better.
* There's some good guidelines for play posted here and there on these boards. I'd gather some of those up perhaps, and base such a system on them.
Reach trip/disarm/dirty trick specialist cad fighter (possibly on top of a Large creature for more AoOs and a higher Str) with some minions to gang up on the barbarian after he's prone, without his weapon, and blinded...
Or a self-buffing mounted-combat druid, possibly on a flying mount, that uses the mount's superior speed (enhanced via spells) to make a lot of Flyby/Ride By Attacks, denying the PC a chance to full-attack.
4. You could also institute "bennies" for positive behavior. Being a good team member* during a session is worth one bennie, for example. Getting into a shouting match with the DM/other players isn't.
Bennies could be used for adding a 1d6 to a roll at opportune times.
This is another play on--being a good player makes your character better.
* There's some good guidelines for play posted here and there on these boards. I'd gather some of those up perhaps, and base such a system on them.
I dislike this. Not that people shouldn't be nice to one another and play well, but that you have to reward that. You're not teaching them to be team players, you're encouraging them to get the prizes. The idea is that people should be nice and help each other out because doing otherwise is being a jerk. If being a jerk is not a harsh enough penalty, then tell them to find a new game.