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Which is the strongest or the most broken cantrip or orizon in your opinion.
Feel free to include 3pp spells.
My #1 so far (might change during the course of this thread) is muscle spasm
At first glance muscle spasm is only slightly stronger than daze. Und then you look further: It has no level/ HD maximum and a broad target group.
But that is not all. It lasts a whole round and by that prevents the target from picking up any weapon, potion, scroll or spell component for the whole turn. And in addition it is save partial giving a vague description of the target still having muscle spasms if the save is successful. Now let's look at the spell casting rules and concentration: Affected by a non-damaging spell while casting. The DC is low (spell DC + spell cast) but at least the target HAS to make a concentration check.
All in all I see it as a spell too strong even for level 1.
From among the paizo spells I think mending is among the strongest.
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This is a great question!
Muscle Spasm sounds fairly nifty, but there doesn't seem to be a definition of "muscle spasm", which is the only effect is listed. I could see it being stronger than daze, but from what's written, the RAW is unreliable.
I'm not too familiar with 3rd party spells, so I'll mostly be sticking to Paizo's (though I might go digging later).
Before we begin, I'm going to note that the majority of these are as powerful as they are simply due to the ability to spam them.
I'm just going to say that detect magic is probably the strongest spell of these, or at least the most adventurer-useful. The main reason is that it maintains it's status as "really good" throughout your career - although there are more powerful versions, because it, unlike those, is spammable, it ultimately is never reduced in efficacy without great expense. Read magic could be argued to trump a sixth level spell, so it's pretty potent, but as detect magic could be argued to trump an entire school, it still loses that race.
I will say that mending is certainly quite a potent choice, for the reasons you mentioned; it's ability to reconstitute even a broken magic item can vastly sway a group's wealth by level, though unfortunately it can't restore a destroyed item.
For world-altering power, however, nothing can beat create water, except perhaps purify food and drink. These two spells can revolutionize the world, if properly harnessed. As the water disappears after a time, the whole "create water to revivify a desert" may not be viable, but it still fundamentally changes how society reacts: there is literally no need for a well, ever again; people can build anywhere and have livable, clean water to do so. The second one, although requiring a bit more work, is even more incredible than the first. While the first would see more wide-spread usage, the second would actually allow you to bring water back to a desert. Simply gather as much sea water as you can, use purify on it, and then move it to wherever you want to water plants or otherwise moisten stuff. While it doesn't prevent decay, it does remove it; food will never really spoil until it vanishes from decay with liberal use of the orison.
Second only to those spells in world-changing ability is prestidigitation - it's ability to clean, heat, cool, or flavor things is absolutely invaluable in increasing the over-all quality of life that anyone lives (as opposed to making life possible, which is what the other two spells do).
Light would be similarly potent in revolutionizing the world and society, except it can only make one at a time, making dancing lights a far better option.
Now for a few worthy mentions, that are definitively kept out of the "most powerful" category, but definitely very potent, if used properly.
Guidance is a deceptively potent spell as well, as it can be consistent "prepped" and ready to go, unless you're after stealth and speed (and it's bonus to Initiative can be surprisingly valuable). Enhanced Diplomacy is better for diplomacy, but unfortunately requires verbal and somatic components, meaning that it could be awkward to use in social situations when you'd most want it. Resistance is a nice bonus to saves - it's worth about half a feat, if refreshed every minute, which is not insignificant.
Certainly not the most powerful, but summon instrument can be used to call up a really heavy two-handed instrument to use as an impromptu weapon or cover.
Personally I LOVE Spark. I am not sure why.
If the target fails their Reflex save, they drop any held items
And the duration is 1 round. So for one round you drop everything held.
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Prestidigitation can be the perfect tool for murder.
Seriously. If crime shows have taught me anything, being a successful murderer is all about the small details. And prestidigitation covers that.
-Cleaning up blood so you aren't caught red handed.
-soiling other people with blood, so they are caught red handed
-changing the taste on less subtle poisons- put all the rat poison and antifreeze you want
-As crime shows have shown, changing temperatures can be vital. How much of a hand counts as '1 lb of nonliving matter'? Drop a heated finger so people think the murder just happened. Drop a cooled finger so they think it happened hours ago. Perfect for making alibis.
-Changing the color of your clothes for disguises on the fly. As the guards chase after the red cloaked killer, you can stand on the street corner in your dashing yellow cloak.
And the fun part is that it is one of the most accessible lvl 0 spells for noncasters. The trifler trait gives you prestidigitation as an SLA 3/day. That is 3 hours with the duration- more than enough to get a good murder or two cleaned up.
Detect Magic
I'm a huge fan of prestidigitation. Powerful? Maybe. It depends on your definition.
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Open/Close is amazingly effectual for the average adventuring party. The ability to open (and close) doors remotely is surprisingly powerful, ruining any number of ambushes. Send the perceptive fellow to the front, unlock the door, then stand well clear of reprisals from the other side as the mage snaps his fingers from across the room.
It can be used "offensively" in combat, as well. A recent PFS scenario tasks the PCs with infiltrating an enemy stronghold. We made some noise escaping a cell, and guards were in-bound. My Spiritualist and his Phantom both readied actions to close one of the doors when it is opened; this effectively trapped the enemy in the other room, unable to join the fight, with a cantrip (effectively two cantrips, since the Phantom in incorporeal form can't do much more than pick up and open/close things). Meanwhile my Spiritualist, who was playing up, stayed safely out of range of frustrated enemy axes.
Turns out the move action requirement to open a door is very brutal if an annoying mage on the opposing team keeps closing the door on you whenever you try it. I know at least one GM in my local area has used it to create some hilarious distress with a spellcasting PFS bad guy in, shall we say, a uniquely-designed area.
Actually, semi-justified plug! Check out the Pathfinder Doorbreaker's Guide I wrote, packed with options for defeating doors, portcullises, and anything else that might bar an adventurer's passage.
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I assume this is basically asking if create water or prestidigitation is more powerful.
I vote the latter.
There is the corner case of Acid Splash used to sneak attack.
Dat one level wizard dip for scout rogue.
Endless touch sneak attacks.
There is the corner case of Acid Splash used to sneak attack.Dat one level wizard dip for scout rogue.
Endless touch sneak attacks.
Couldn't you just take the Minor Magic rogue talent and avoid the dip?
It's only 3/day with the talent.
It's only 3/day with the talent.It's very unlikely that you'll get three, let alone more than three sneaked ranged opportunities per day.
You would if you were a Scout, since all you have to do is move 10 feet to deal sneak attack damage.
I was explicitly replying to the "endless" and "why dip?" comments, not commenting on whether or not dipping was the preferred method of gaining a touch attack.
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It's only 3/day with the talent.It's very unlikely that you'll get three, let alone more than three sneaked ranged opportunities per day.
A CORE Rogue with Minor Magic could make good use of this. Certainly not more than thrice per day, though, with no special archetypes to get ranged sneak attacks. E.g. A 9th level rogue could use Acid Splash for a ranged touch sneak attack for about 5D6+1D3 ~= 20 HP damage.
Wow, that's pretty good for a Rogue! For comparison, it's also about what my last level one cleric routinely hits for. Poor Rogue :-(
How are you doing 20 damage per round with a first level cleric?
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the spell can only open and close things weighing 30 pounds or less.
Oddly enough, all the doors in my house weigh over 30 lbs. So unless the doors in yonder dungeon are made of balsa, I suggest you prepare something else.
6'6" x 2'9" x 1" = 42 litres = 50-100 lbs depending on typical types of wood.
I was also going to say Prestidigitation, it may not be powerful in a damage or "harm" your enemies sense. But it definitely the best 0 level spell available. In my opinion.
I always took mage hand, ghost sound, dancing lights, Prestidigitation, and sometimes spark. I could get past any guard.
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I once had a sorcerer who cast detect magic and detect poison on everything. EVERYTHING! The door, the party mates, the boss, a random hut in the wilderness (Which radiated poison), that one shiny sword that the barbarian almost got us all killed over (Wasn't even masterwork), and other things. Everyone told me to stop but then increased my paranoia because the one square they convinced me not to scan had a magic trap. I was also not allowed to research Detect Loot, Detect, gold, Detect shiny things, detect walls, detect PCs, detect Important NPCs and others.
Most doors aren't made of solid wood.the spell can only open and close things weighing 30 pounds or less.Oddly enough, all the doors in my house weigh over 30 lbs. So unless the doors in yonder dungeon are made of balsa, I suggest you prepare something else.
6'6" x 2'9" x 1" = 42 litres = 50-100 lbs depending on typical types of wood.
Modern doors, sure. MEDIEVAL doors, though? Solid oak planks, bound with iron. Prestidigitation is great for jewelry boxes and scroll tubes, less so for houses.
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Modern doors, sure. MEDIEVAL doors, though? Solid oak planks, bound with iron. Prestidigitation is great for jewelry boxes and scroll tubes, less so for houses.Most doors aren't made of solid wood.the spell can only open and close things weighing 30 pounds or less.Oddly enough, all the doors in my house weigh over 30 lbs. So unless the doors in yonder dungeon are made of balsa, I suggest you prepare something else.
6'6" x 2'9" x 1" = 42 litres = 50-100 lbs depending on typical types of wood.
That would be an appropriate comparison if golarion were in any way medieval. It's not.
I once had a sorcerer who cast detect magic and detect poison on everything. EVERYTHING! The door, the party mates, the boss, a random hut in the wilderness (Which radiated poison), that one shiny sword that the barbarian almost got us all killed over (Wasn't even masterwork), and other things. Everyone told me to stop but then increased my paranoia because the one square they convinced me not to scan had a magic trap. I was also not allowed to research Detect Loot, Detect, gold, Detect shiny things, detect walls, detect PCs, detect Important NPCs and others.
I've seen some people just take into account that the caster has a constant detect magic going. Just like a paladin has a constant detect evil going. At least when they're not otherwise engaged in something specific, like combat or sleeping.
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That would be an appropriate comparison if golarion were in any way medieval. It's not.
Modern doors, sure. MEDIEVAL doors, though? Solid oak planks, bound with iron. Prestidigitation is great for jewelry boxes and scroll tubes, less so for houses.
...but is their door technology that much more advanced? Are doors finely crafted by expert wizards? Is there a 'create door' spell?
Even if we argue about the exact technological equivalency, completely wooden doors seem like the norm up until the modern era of fiber board and plastics. And unless there is some industrial grade mass production and export of doors by highly trained craftsmen/wizards, then most doors are going to be made locally by carpenters.
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numerous posts trying to mathematically prove door weight
You guys are reading way too much into the spell. It explicitly states that it is designed to open doors, in addition to other objects. Heck, it's the first thing referenced in the spell.
You can open or close (your choice) a door...
It then goes on to the say that the spell fails if trying to affect an object more than 30 pounds in weight, and lists as an example:
Thus doors, chests, and similar objects sized for enormous creatures...
A normal door is not "sized for enormous creatures." Unless the door is explicitly called out of being made of a heavier-than-normal material (such as a stone or metal door, or a door specifically called out for its weighty construction) the spell should function as intended. Any other interpretation is pedantry that clearly goes against the intent of the spell.
If you don't want enterprising young wizards opening and closing your doors from afar, explicitly designate them as being made of solid material weighing in excess of 30 pounds. Otherwise don't mess with the basic function of the spell.
I've seen some people just take into account that the caster has a constant detect magic going. Just like a paladin has a constant detect evil going. At least when they're not otherwise engaged in something specific, like combat or sleeping.
I once had a sorcerer who cast detect magic and detect poison on everything. EVERYTHING! The door, the party mates, the boss, a random hut in the wilderness (Which radiated poison), that one shiny sword that the barbarian almost got us all killed over (Wasn't even masterwork), and other things. Everyone told me to stop but then increased my paranoia because the one square they convinced me not to scan had a magic trap. I was also not allowed to research Detect Loot, Detect, gold, Detect shiny things, detect walls, detect PCs, detect Important NPCs and others.
Mostly they just told me too stop trying to scan everything. And to stop coming up with more ideas for scanning spells. And cause the GM had overused poison and magic and was upset i would spot it all.
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I kind of love Pants.
I had never seen that spell before. Thank you for bringing this wonder into my life. New spell to go on all my lists.
(Now you have to guess if I am being sarcastic or not)
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I kind of love Pants.I had never seen that spell before. Thank you for bringing this wonder into my life. New spell to go on all my lists.
(Now you have to guess if I am being sarcastic or not)
That is a wonderful spell, but it should be ranged touch instead of will save.j
That is a wonderful spell, but it should be ranged touch instead of will save.jI kind of love Pants.I had never seen that spell before. Thank you for bringing this wonder into my life. New spell to go on all my lists.
(Now you have to guess if I am being sarcastic or not)
I am learning just how awesome third-party spells actually are.
Prestidigitation
I want to talk about prestidigitation for a moment.
First, allow me to say: it's probably my favorite spell. There is nothing that increases the general quality of life for everyone in the game as much as this humble cantrip.
Second: it's not the most powerful spell. It's the most versatile, sure, but definitely not the most powerful. The reason it's not as powerful, despite it's versatility, is that every function of it (except, perhaps, getting a wilted flower to bloom) is easily replaced by a person doing the same thing. Despite that, for world-changing shenanigans, it's firmly in third place (well, second place, but with two other spells ahead of it, as I discussed above: create water and purify food and drink).
Third: For the general purposes of an adventurer, detect magic and mending are going to be far more powerful, even as create water and purify food and drink lose their relative potency.
What this means for my beloved prestidigitation is that it firmly resides in the third-most-powerful slot... but does so whichever list it's on, which is a significant achievement. Even mending drops to just below dancing lights (itself below prestidigitation) in world-changing shenanigans, while detect magic is no longer even on that chart.
Hence, definitely a potent spell, and quite an important one, and most assuredly my favorite, but no where near the "strongest".
For quality of life prestidigitation and mending would be my first choices if I could learn to cast spells. I as a player, that is.
Just think of everyday problems: Oh, noes I ripped my favourite shirt. - mending
I chipped my grandmother's best china. - mending
I tore a page in the book from the library. - again, mending
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The 10 minute cast time on Mending is very painful, which lowers it's overall score IMO, especially since Make Whole can do it in a standard action.
You'd rather waste a second level spell than wait ten minutes outside of combat to fix an item?
Open/Close has its uses, like popping open a scroll tube or poton bottle so that a familiar can use their Move action to deliver said magic item. Generally though I don't find much in-combat use for it. Close range, Will Save if object is attended and a Standard action affecting only a single portal at a time.
Personally I think Acid Splash is pretty ridiculous. There's no SR so as long as you hit you're doing some damage and all kinds of damage-enhancement can be added to it.
I don't understand how you would use it to "pop open a potion bottle." There's no action required to open a potion bottle, beyond the action required to drink it. If there was, it'd be basically impossible to drink a potion in combat, as you'd have to go Move Action (Withdraw Potion) -> Standard Action (Open Potion) -> [Next Turn] Move Action (Drink Potion). So you'd just be wasting your action trying to open the bottle with a cantrip. No?
I'm bemused by people mentioning Acid Splash. It bypasses SR, but it's basically impossible to enhance it to the degree that it has any kind of impact. Even sneak attacking with it is fairly pointless, as a poster upthread mentions (damage is hilariously low).
Arcane Mark and/or Brand seem like superior "combat" cantrips to Acid Splash, if only due to the fact that they can be used to grant a Magus "free" Two-Weapon Fighting.
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Arcane Mark and/or Brand seem like superior "combat" cantrips to Acid Splash, if only due to the fact that they can be used to grant a Magus "free" Two-Weapon Fighting.
More accurately free Two Weapon Fighting and Double Slice with a single one handed weapon.
I count four benefits there.
- Torger
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I'm bemused by people mentioning Acid Splash. It bypasses SR, but it's basically impossible to enhance it to the degree that it has any kind of impact. Even sneak attacking with it is fairly pointless, as a poster upthread mentions (damage is hilariously low).
Brimstone component +1 acid damage
Acid Flask focus +1 acid damageAcid Flask component: Duration +1 round
Crossblooded Sorc: +2 damage
2d3+8 vs touch AC is not bad, and certainly better than a crossbow.
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I'm bemused by people mentioning Acid Splash. It bypasses SR, but it's basically impossible to enhance it to the degree that it has any kind of impact. Even sneak attacking with it is fairly pointless, as a poster upthread mentions (damage is hilariously low).Brimstone component +1 acid damage
Acid Flask focus +1 acid damage
Acid Flask component: Duration +1 round
Crossblooded Sorc: +2 damage2d3+8 vs touch AC is not bad, and certainly better than a crossbow.
Brimstone component: 5 sp
Acid flask: 10 gp(plus a 10 gp Acid Flask focus - but that is reusable)
So, the expendables are going to cost you 10.5 gp per shot. You've got yourself up to nice damage, but now, how do we mitigate the cost?