Is a 1 lvl dip in rogue worth it?
This is the question I'm trying to educate myself on. Here's why I ask:
I had a lvl 4 flowing monk (dex build), that specializes in tripping. I play him for PFS via pbp. I needed a reliable way to use wands, scrolls, ect... mainly so I can always have mage armor and CLW via wand, but also so I can use PP to purchase different useful buffs as well. I took a 1 lvl dip in witch for that reason and as a bonus, to use hex strike for a 1 round min debuff on top of being prone.
this bring us to the question at hand...
due to the enemy always being prone from the trip build, I also have vicous stomp for a free attack when the enemy goes prone. Flowing monk also has unbalanced counter that leaves enemies flat footed after an AoO. This means most attacks I make are on a prone and/or flat footed enemy.
Since I'm playing PFS and will not be worried about post lvl 12 abilities, feats, ect....
Does another dip in rogue (to get SA on all those prone/flat footed enemies) make sense?
Is it worth the 1 BAB loss (not going monk) to get a min of 2 - 5 SA @ 1d6 ea?
As another bonus, I get extra skill points, and effectivly skill focus in at least 7 skills... trapfinding... ect.
I'm not a min/maxer but this additional class dip is pretty appealing. Is it a "trap" or not? Am I missing any other drawbacks?
perhaps I wasn't clear.
I AM hitting.
Everytime I trip ---> vicious stomp. Enemy stands up ---> AoO. Flurry of Blows ---> trip + stomp, 2nd attack. Ki point for extra attack.
So with all these opportunities for SA. anywhere from 2-7 in any given turn, would a 1 lvl dip in a class that provides SA be worth a +1 attack, that i lose?
You would probably want Snakebite Striker Brawler. +1 BAB, Sneak attack, fort save, I think.
I like that idea. a d10 hp vs d8. the only thing i'm unclear on, is whether levels in monk and levels in brawler would stack for determining unarmed damage die?
i.e. Lvl 4 monk = 1d8, lvl 4 brawler = 1d8... would a monk2/brawler2 = 4 TOTAL lvls and also = 1d8? Or would it be 1d6, the unarmed damage dice for either a monk 2 or a brawler 2?
No, unless you are getting more out of it than you described it isn't worth it. There are other, better ways to get +3.5 damage on a combination.
If you were also looking at becoming a trap expert, it might be worth it, but even then I think it would be questionable.
I appreciate the straight answer of "NO", but it would really help me if anyone could explain "why" the answer is no.
I'm seeing the only issue being mentioned is the +1 BAB. I understand this is important, but with enemies being prone (-4 AC) and hexed (-2 AC), missing a +1 BAB would not be an issue due to the regular -6 AC.
Is there something OTHER than the +1 BAB, I should be taking into consideration?
Thank you in advance for your advice.
A rogue adds a situational +3.5 damage and some skills.
Snakebite Brawler gives the same damage and better HP and BAB.
mutagening mauler brawler gives a damage and hitting boost 10 minutes a time with an hour refresher needed.
Barb gives a damage and a hitting boost a few rounds a day.
Staying monk gets you closer to another attack in your flurry and FCB.
I think the reason emphasis is placed on BAB is that it *will get harder to trip things, so it *will get harder to hit things.
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I appreciate the straight answer of "NO", but it would really help me if anyone could explain "why" the answer is no.
I'm seeing the only issue being mentioned is the +1 BAB. I understand this is important, but with enemies being prone (-4 AC) and hexed (-2 AC), missing a +1 BAB would not be an issue due to the regular -6 AC.
Is there something OTHER than the +1 BAB, I should be taking into consideration?
Thank you in advance for your advice.
You are giving up +1 BAB on all attacks. That means you are less likely to make the opponents prone so you can do all those cool maneuvers.
You are giving up any FCB. I don't think you are getting weapon proficiencies that you care about (didn't check all the rules there). You don't want the armor proficiency and don't appear to care about new class skills. The difference in skill ranks is there, but if you only take a single level it isn't going to make a big difference.
It just isn't sounding like you are getting enough to make it worthwhile.
You are doing this for +3.5 damage on average per round against a set of relatively common but still limited set of opponents. A single missed hit is likely to cost you more than that.
It really doesn't sound like you are getting good value to me.
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If going for sneak attack, go with the snakebite brawler dip as it is less painful than the rogue one. You mentioned trapfinding, but trapfinding is not worth it. You can train disable device and perception to locate and bypass any mundane traps with out it. You only need it for magical traps which can be removed via dispel magic.
You have already reduced your BAB with the witch dip. Don't reduce it further with rogue.
If you want mage armor via wand go for Use Magic Device. Sure you won't have that as class skill but you can spend feat to take additional trait and Dangerously Curious to make it class skill with +1 trait bonus. Skill focus is better in the late game but if the is PFS it's not really worth it. This gives you +4 if you use your 5th level feat for it. Monks get lots of bonus feats so they shouldn't be an issue. If you can Circlet of Persuasion it add +3 to any Charisma based skill and I think it's 3500 gp. So if you can get that at level 5 assuming say 10 CHR you could have +12 (5 rnks, 1 trt, 3 cs, 3 mag). A 3rd level caster wand would cost you 2250 GP for mage armor that lasts 3 hours.
1D6 sneak really isn't worth it for the loss in you to hit bonus as others have said.
For trapfinding, talk to GM and see if you can the trap finding trait from the Mummy's Curse Player Guide.
I'm not sure what you're bonus for trip attempts will be as you level but I suggest you spend a little time figuring that out and then what the average CMD of stuff you'll can be facing will be.
Perhaps my rolls have just been better than average, but thus far... I have been impressed with my trip success rate.
So, I guess that had added to my perception that a +1 to those attacks would make almost no difference.
A rogue adds a situational +3.5 damage and some skills.
I'm looking at this like power attack. Power attack is included in almost every 2-hand build. it has a -1 attack to get +2 damage. Here... with rogue for example, I'm giving up a -1 attack and getting at least (remember typical round has min 2 and max 7 possible SA) 3.5 damage. This is a MUCH better return than the standard power attack.
some skills... there are at least 6 that become class skills, with 8 ranks to use in them (double what monk normally gets), which is where I mentioned that if I put at least 1 rank in any skill I didn't have as a class skill w/o rogue, adds +3 (trained) to each of them. That's equivelant to at least 6 feats (skill focus x 6).
If you want mage armor via wand go for Use Magic Device. Sure you won't have that as class skill but you can spend feat to take additional trait and Dangerously Curious to make it class skill with +1 trait bonus. Skill focus is better in the late game but if the is PFS it's not really worth it. This gives you +4 if you use your 5th level feat for it. Monks get lots of bonus feats so they shouldn't be an issue. If you can Circlet of Persuasion it add +3 to any Charisma based skill and I think it's 3500 gp. So if you can get that at level 5 assuming say 10 CHR you could have +12 (5 rnks, 1 trt, 3 cs, 3 mag). A 3rd level caster wand would cost you 2250 GP for mage armor that lasts 3 hours.
I get the idea here, but I would need to give up bred for war which is a +1 to the important trip build, to get dangerously curious. I dumped cha to 8. the skill point investment + magic item cost + feat cost for a chance of receiving the desired result and the possibility of rolling a 1 aand not being able to use it for 24 hrs seems less beneficial than getting all this with a min 1 round debuff, spells, and familiar for the witch dip. This is where I decided to dip witch in the 1st place, it solved the wand issue and provided nice extras.
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I don't mean to be difficult, but I'm still not seeing why the extras I would get from the 2nd dip would NOT be worth it. I am still very interested in understanding "why" though, because I still haven't had the light bulb turn on over my head to clarify what every other post'r here can see that I can't.
I understand, logically if every person posting besides me, has the same answer... there HAS to be a reason, and I haven't been able to see it yet.
Once again, I REALLY appreciate your replies AND your patience helping me get there.
Power attack is a thing you can not use when you have a hard time hitting, losing bab doesn't have that option. And it's because people feel that the rogue doesn't give much. If you're dead set on sneak attack why not go snakebite striker brawler? But if you feel it's worth doing, go rogue. No one is stopping you.