One of Golarion's superpowers, Cheliax, is founded on the ideals of diabolism - a Lawful Evil practice of power. How would this look in practice? What would a typical village, town, and large city enter look like? Are there devilish idols everywhere? Are the majority of citizens Neutral or Lawful Evil? Or is the makeup pretty much the same as anywhere else?
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Imagine if the US South had not seceded, and hung on for 2 or 3 more decades, bringing the US into the time when "company towns" became very popular among major corporations as social structures for oppressing their workers -- at which point in our timeline they undoubtedly started kicking themselves secretly for having participated in the ending of slavery -- in the altered timeline, the corporations would have become the greatest proponents of slavery, and expanded it to the entire United States and enshrined it to the current day. Furthermore, think of how they currently use social conservatism to further their agenda, promoting enslavement under the iron heel of government, all in the name of freedom. Furthermore, in the altered timeline, the expansion of slavery to universality would have enhanced the social stratification that actually occurred in the corresponding part of our timeline, and would have ensured that social stratification had no setback a few decades later as it had during our timeline, thus eventually leading to the development of an actual nobility class in all but name.
Now, let the nobility become nobility in name as well as in practice, and somehow convince their diabolical religious servitors to wear their diabolism on their sleeve instead of hiding it behind a Santa Claus facade, and you will have something not too far off from Cheliax, except on Earth, and with the magic substituted by technology (including hellfire nuclear weapons(*)).
Even without all the above alternate timeline events, things are proceeding in that direction -- they just have a lot more progress to undo. If you live long enough, you may yet see Cheliax on Earth, just with different window dressing on it.
(*)Speaking of which, I wonder how long it will be before Cheliax just outright nukes Andoran and anyone else who opposes it?
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They won't nuke them, they will just fund a populist uprising which will ultimately blow up in their face.
I recommend taking a look at Book of the Damned vol. 1 - Princes of Darkness. It's a good look at devils in general for Golarion and really campaigns in general.
Once you've read through the book, you'll have a pretty good mental image of how something run by Hell based law would work. As the book covers that system in Hell.
It made it possible for me to make a character that worshipped Hell (no specific entity) and play the character with "better" aligned PCs.
Honestly it's not that bad.
^As in our world, that depends very much upon whom you are talking about it being bad for . . . .
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ITT: Paizo forum discusses the pros and cons of devil worship.
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in the altered timeline, the corporations would have become the greatest proponents of slavery, and expanded it to the entire United States and enshrined it to the current day. Furthermore, think of how they currently use social conservatism to further their agenda, promoting enslavement under the iron heel of government, all in the name of freedom.
Remind me; which party worked to end slavery? And which party currently had, up until the latest midterms, had both a governmental house and the presidency (with it still having the latter of these two)?
And how does a conservative reading--that is one which attempts to limit assumptions and caveats--of the US constitution take "All men were created equal" to suddenly include "Oh, except these following ethnic, social and religious groups"?
in the altered timeline, the corporations would have become the greatest proponents of slavery, and expanded it to the entire United States and enshrined it to the current day. Furthermore, think of how they currently use social conservatism to further their agenda, promoting enslavement under the iron heel of government, all in the name of freedom.
Remind me; which party worked to end slavery? And which party currently had, up until the latest midterms, had both a governmental house and the presidency (with it still having the latter of these two)?
And how does a conservative reading--that is one which attempts to limit assumptions and caveats--of the US constitution take "All men were created equal" to suddenly include "Oh, except these following ethnic, social and religious groups"?
The same way that it allows for slavery, not letting women vote, Jim Crow laws, and the Japanese Concentration camps -- by ignoring that other people are human and the "No true Scotsman" fallacy.
Technically it's more conservative because it's "returning to what was" instead of moving in a more progressive direction.
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If one takes conservatism in reference to the actions that were regularly taken, very well, but I tend to take it more in the general interpretation of how things were/are in relation to the constitution of a country.
How much must one stretch, finagle, make assumptions of or depart from the original righting of the constitution in order to reach an outcome is my general approach in deciding if something is conservative, with more stretching/finagling/assuming being overall a more liberal view because it takes liberties with the constitution.
The other way however, is reasonably valid so long as it is understood to be such.
in the altered timeline, the corporations would have become the greatest proponents of slavery, and expanded it to the entire United States and enshrined it to the current day. Furthermore, think of how they currently use social conservatism to further their agenda, promoting enslavement under the iron heel of government, all in the name of freedom.
Remind me; which party worked to end slavery? And which party currently had, up until the latest midterms, had both a governmental house and the presidency (with it still having the latter of these two)?
And how does a conservative reading--that is one which attempts to limit assumptions and caveats--of the US constitution take "All men were created equal" to suddenly include "Oh, except these following ethnic, social and religious groups"?
Lets not get into century old politics when politicians can flip flop in a week.
It is not like most people in the north were against slavery for humanitarian reasons. It was more of a 'they'll take our jobs' situations as seen with South American immigrants today.
Anyway, for how diabolism might affect things- I think there would be a great tendency towards highly complicated and extravagant ceremonies. I have felt for a while that all the virgin blood sacrifice and pentagram during the eclipse stuff devils use is more of a test. Hell is characterized as far to efficient to actually use that stuff at face value. No, you have to handle the logistics of a cult hiding its dark secrets while still fulfilling some arbitrary requirements. Handling that shows that you deserve more power and authority.
So how does this affect a devil respecting society? Power plays would come in the form of highly expensive and complicated social events where each major player tries to top (or sabotage) the other. Failure would result in a massive loss of face (as well as allies, customers, land, wealth, titles, etc.).
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One of Golarion's superpowers, Cheliax, is founded on the ideals of diabolism - a Lawful Evil practice of power. How would this look in practice? What would a typical village, town, and large city enter look like? Are there devilish idols everywhere Are the majority of citizens Neutral or Lawful Evil? Or is the makeup pretty much the same as anywhere else?
Diabolism isn't the worship of hell and Asmodeus. It's a political philosophy that uses hell as a model, because hell is arguably the most orderly and lawful place in the universe. The argument for it would be something along the lines of "hell is filled with some of the worst, most evil, and most selfish creatures imaginable and yet they have a system of government that maintains an orderly and rational society, and has endured for millennia. We have difficulty keeping farmers and nobles in line for more than a few generations. Maybe we can learn something from how the government and society of hell is structured?"
So diabolism is a form of political theory (like agrarianism or federalism). Based on its description in the Inner Sea World Guide and the old Campaign Setting book (and its write up in the wiki), diabolism emphasizes:
1. Hierarchical systems of power
2. Strong, authoritative leadership
3. Disindividuation (being a cog in the proverbial machine)
4. The value of slavery to society
It's also important to note that diabolism is really popular among the ruling class of Cheliax and Isger, but not so much with the rest of the population.
It's also important to note that diabolism isn't just an attractive philosophy because it gives justification to the people in power, but that it is also pretty darn close to the sort of government that ran the vast empire back when Aroden was alive. The switch from the lawful neutral Aroden to the lawful evil Asmodeus is rather subtle in some places. Aroden also seems to have support strong centralized hierarchies, strong authoritative leadership, working for the greater good of society often at the expense of the individual, and legalized slavery. So it wasn't so much that House Thrune put some radically new form of government in place after Aroden died and the country collapsed into civil war. They just gave the people back what they'd always had, only with different ideological underpinnings that really only would matter to an academic. Your average farmer would go back to living in a safe, controlled world pretty close to the one their grandparents remembered from childhood ... and the point of comparison would be "is this strong authority better than the 30 year civil war that we just had"?
So in practice Cheliax would look a lot like other world governments. It has a queen and a variety of noble houses who hold most of the power, it has something that resembles a small-ish middle class (merchants and the like) and a large number of peasants. There is also a robust slave trade that probably predominately supports agriculture. Honestly, it would look a lot like Taldor only it would probably seem more efficient.
There probably wouldn't be devilish idols everywhere because it would look tacky. Also, because idols imply some form of worship. You'd probably see devils and hellish imagery being worked into popular art though, since artists tend to reflect society. Devil worship would be more common among the ruling class, but House Thrune views itself more as a business partner with hell, not a servant. So dealing with devils is acceptable, but being a minion to one would be less acceptable. The closer you get to the capital, Egorian, the more open and obvious the influence of hell would become.
The majority of citizens would probably lean more toward lawful, since Cheliax has been a super lawful society long before Aroden died.
The people on the lower rungs of society would probably live about the same as they would anywhere else. There may even be a greater level of upward mobility available to them, since a system influenced by hell would probably have a system of rewards for people willing to participate in their own subjugation.
The nobles on the upper rungs of society would also probably live about the same as anywhere else, only things would be somewhat ... darker. Something like the films Dangerous Liaisons/Cruel Intentions, the Devil Wears Prada, Heathers, or any number of movies/books where a bunch of rich and powerful people do horrible things to each other in order to maneuver into a position of slightly greater power. It would be a lot like Taldor, only with less boredom and more malice.
The middle class would probably feel the squeeze the most, since the people above them would view them as potential threats and because they'd have enough money and mobility to stand out from the rest of society.
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Remind me; which party worked to end slavery?
The radical and progressive Republicans. A party which no longer exists and instead has dog whistles so loud my dog is deaf, calling people (humans) things like, "deportables" or "thugs" and regularly engages in the devaluation of life while claiming their practice of shaming women and the poor is somehow based on Christian principles.
Also while claiming that the nation is Christian in nature -- which it plainly is not and never has been.
good stuff
Add to it that the power structure came into place during a time when 'bad things were happening' and can claim to have saved society it offers itself some legitimacy that way as well.
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Lets not get into century old politics when politicians can flip flop in a week.
True, the derailment has lasted long enough, let's not make the thread about bringing all our personal shoulder-chips in for the OP to be annoyed by.
On the subject of power plays, I'd imagine they could get quite brutish should the option to hide it behind closed doors become available.
Your estimation of a limited impact on commoners is something I don't tend towards however. People who don't feel in control of or content with their lives tend to lash out at others, attempting to control them. This in turn leads to spousal and child abuse, perversion of employment agreements, lying to have others operating to conditions that you wish to be true rather than what actually is: anything and everything to just get that small feeling that you have what it takes to make a difference in the world, even if that difference is absolutely horrifying.
Cheliax is a playground for exploring what people do when they are in a state of denial of just how hosed they are.
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Remind me; which party worked to end slavery? And which party currently had, up until the latest midterms, had both a governmental house and the presidency (with it still having the latter of these two)?
The first party you're looking for was the party that worked to end slavery . . . until 1876. Since then, they've increasingly been kicking themselves for doing just that.
And how does a conservative reading--that is one which attempts to limit assumptions and caveats--of the US constitution take "All men were created equal" to suddenly include "Oh, except these following ethnic, social and religious groups"?
Keep in mind that from the very beginning, the US Constitution enshrined slavery (without using the exact term) in Article I Section 9, Article IV Section 2. In addition, Article V specifically prohibited amendment of Article I section 9 before 1808. The US is not Andoran.
Diabolism isn't the worship of hell and Asmodeus. It's a political philosophy that uses hell as a model, because hell is arguably the most orderly and lawful place in the universe. The argument for it would be something along the lines of "hell is filled with some of the worst, most evil, and most selfish creatures imaginable and yet they have a system of government that maintains an orderly and rational society, and has endured for millennia. We have difficulty keeping farmers and nobles in line for more than a few generations. Maybe we can learn something from how the government and society of hell is structured?" {. . .}
From reading various pathfinderwiki.com articles about Golarion, I get a strong impression that contrary to the pathfinderwiki.com article on Diabolism (which is mostly sourced from documents published by Paizo in 2008/2009, and which conflicts somewhat with its own sidebar, which lists "Promoting Hell" as the main goal of Diabolism), what you describe sounds more like Hellknight ideology. Diabolism in Golarion (at least as practiced in Cheliax and its vicinity) does seem to be worship of Hell and Devils (Asmodeus and/or otherwise). The two philosophies have a lot of overlap but apparently do not always see eye-to-eye (after all, the Hellknight initiation rite prominently features single-handly killing a Devil, and Diabolists must be non-Good, whereas Good people can get drawn into the Hellknights with enough delay before becoming non-Good that they can do stuff and be legitimately reported as being still Good in the meantime). Diabolists are more concerned with enforcing exploitation, whereas Hellknights are more concerned with enforcing order; each is no slouch in the other's department, but it seems that Diabolists would consider it heretical to enforce fairness to any extent needed beyond the minimum required to maintain order, whereas Hellknights would be on the average more tolerant of the idea of enforcing fairness as long as it does not interfere with enforcing order. (The Hellknights that honestly believe that they can enforce fairness under a system organized like Hell are presumably the ones that are Lawful Good. In the long run, this isn't going to work out, but Hell can wait. In contrast, Diabolists really have to be committed to Hell itself.)
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And how does a conservative reading--that is one which attempts to limit assumptions and caveats--of the US constitution take "All men were created equal" to suddenly include "Oh, except these following ethnic, social and religious groups"?The same way that it allows for slavery, not letting women vote, Jim Crow laws, and the Japanese Concentration camps -- by ignoring that other people are human and the "No true Scotsman" fallacy.
Plus the fact that "All men are created equal" isn't in the Constitution in the first place. That's from the Declaration of Independence, which isn't a legal document.
Anyway, back on topic:
From reading various pathfinderwiki.com articles about Golarion, I get a strong impression that contrary to the pathfinderwiki.com article on Diabolism (which is mostly sourced from documents published by Paizo in 2008/2009, and which conflicts somewhat with its own sidebar, which lists "Promoting Hell" as the main goal of Diabolism), what you describe sounds more like Hellknight ideology. Diabolism in Golarion (at least as practiced in Cheliax and its vicinity) does seem to be worship of Hell and Devils (Asmodeus and/or otherwise). The two philosophies have a lot of overlap but apparently do not always see eye-to-eye (after all, the Hellknight initiation rite prominently features single-handly killing a Devil, and Diabolists must be non-Good, whereas Good people can get drawn into the Hellknights with enough delay before becoming non-Good that they can do stuff and be legitimately reported as being still Good in the meantime). Diabolists are more concerned with enforcing exploitation, whereas Hellknights are more concerned with enforcing order; each is no slouch in the other's department, but it seems that Diabolists would consider it heretical to enforce fairness to any extent needed beyond the minimum required to maintain order, whereas Hellknights would be on the average more tolerant of the idea of enforcing fairness as long as it does not interfere with enforcing order. (The Hellknights that honestly believe that they can enforce fairness under a system organized like Hell are presumably the ones that are Lawful Good. In the long run, this isn't going to work out, but Hell can wait. In contrast, Diabolists really have to be committed to Hell itself.)
I kind of get the sense that Diabolism, like a lot of other political philosophies, comes in multiple flavors. After all, within the Hellknights themselves you have some orders that are iron-fisted oppressors, and other Orders with Lawful Good folks in leadership positions and paladins within the ranks. It seems reasonable to suggest that there are similar splits outside the order: some Diabolists are big believers in absolute order and organization and just see hell as a model to emulate, while others are just outright serving Asmodeus.
I kind of get the sense that Diabolism, like a lot of other political philosophies, comes in multiple flavors. After all, within the Hellknights themselves you have some orders that are iron-fisted oppressors, and other Orders with Lawful Good folks in leadership positions and paladins within the ranks. It seems reasonable to suggest that there are similar splits outside the order: some Diabolists are big believers in absolute order and organization and just see hell as a model to emulate, while others are just outright serving Asmodeus.
This nuanced approach seems to take into account the conflicting accounts of diabolism and Chelaxian/Isgerian religious life.
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In addition to the stuff you've already listed, I'd add
-- cruel and unfair laws
-- torture as part of the legal code and as an accepted part of society
-- intense awareness of status, especially formal status
-- a general "kick up / kiss down" attitude being not merely accepted but encouraged.
-- an efficient and ruthless bureaucracy
-- lack of any sort of liberty. (A Diabolist regime does not have freedom of speech, assembly, religion or movement.)
-- something of an obsession with contracts.
you mean "Kiss Up / Kick Down" right?
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I kind of get the sense that Diabolism, like a lot of other political philosophies, comes in multiple flavors. After all, within the Hellknights themselves you have some orders that are iron-fisted oppressors, and other Orders with Lawful Good folks in leadership positions and paladins within the ranks. It seems reasonable to suggest that there are similar splits outside the order: some Diabolists are big believers in absolute order and organization and just see hell as a model to emulate, while others are just outright serving Asmodeus.This nuanced approach seems to take into account the conflicting accounts of diabolism and Chelaxian/Isgerian religious life.
Not to mention seeming a lot more realistic than having everyone in Cheliax walking in lock-step total agreement on how the government and society ought to run. I'm reminded of the early USSR, where all the leaders were certain they were communists, yet argued a great deal over what exactly communism was and were very sure that their opponents were not true communists.
^Of course, just like Communists (but arguably with better organization), Diabolists would try very hard to get everyone in lockstep. The Communists succeeded fairly quickly within each country that went Communist, although they never did manage to extend this very securely between countries that weren't under a common hegemony. Of course, things evolve more slowly on Golarion than on Earth, and judging from Council of Thieves, Cheliax has its own share of incompetence and corruption that would slow the process.
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...I get a strong impression that contrary to the pathfinderwiki.com article on Diabolism (which is mostly sourced from documents published by Paizo in 2008/2009, and which conflicts somewhat with its own sidebar, which lists "Promoting Hell" as the main goal of Diabolism)...
If you don't trust the description of Diabolism in Inner Sea World Guide (which was published in 2011), you can go by the description in the more recent Faiths & Philosophies (2013):
"Although diabolists point to Asmodeus and the archdevils as role models worthy of respect and emulation, many are unwilling to worship such wicked creatures directly, for obvious reasons. Indeed, due to it's status as a philosophy rather than a religion, diabolism is widely studied by scholars in many societies that would never permit outright devil worship." (pg. 27)
Diabolism can lead to devil worship (which is no doubt a feature, not a bug) but it isn't worship itself. It's a social philosophy. It just happens to be a social philosophy that, when put into action, furthers the overall long-term goals of Asmodeus and hell. Which is the sort of slow subtle seduction that fits really well with how Asmodeus likes to run things.
Like any social philosophy I'm sure there are variants and disagreements, but overall diabolists would be pretty similar in their beliefs even if they emphasize different aspects. After all, Hell is pretty consistent.
...what you describe sounds more like Hellknight ideology ... The two philosophies have a lot of overlap but apparently do not always see eye-to-eye..."
There is definitely overlap between Hellknight ideology and Diabolism, but I'd draw a definite line between them. Hellknights seem to have come first (or at least become popular first) since they predate Aroden's death by several years but diabolism didn't really become widespread until after House Thrune won the civil war. I say all this with the concession that diabolism in Cheliax has most definitely influenced some of the more prominent Hellknight orders there, and that it is entirely probable that many Hellknights are also diabolists (or become diabolists eventually).
The Hellknights were founded by a guy whose wife and son were killed by a demonic cult. Hell wasn't the goal so much as a yardstick by which he measured how bada** he and his fellow knights needed to be in order to fight any enemy that came along. They quite literally went through a training regiment from hell in order to become hollwood spartans in full-plate armor.
They basically turned into a franchise, since subsequent hellknight orders were simply orders of knights who agreed to train to the same level and hold to the same unyielding principles. They didn't even call themselves hellknights at first, that was a nickname non-hellknights called them that they eventually embraced for themselves. It was the in-game equivalent of calling a US Marine a "devil dog".
Over time (and after a 30 year civil war) several orders of hellknights gradually morphed into the more obviously hell-aligned organization that we all know and love. Which, again, fits with the "slow seduction of hell" trope.
But yes, there is a lot of room for conflict between the diabolists in the government and the hellknight orders.