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I am thinking of making a Whirling Dervish Swashbuckler. However, I am wonder if the need to take people alive would actually be a detriment for play in PFS. Do you have to kill an opponent to to get their gold and loot?
For the sake of clarity Whirling Dirvish.
Venture-Captain, Germany—Bavaria
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My half orc monk paladin of Shelyn would argue like this:
We should always strive for peace, to not rob the world of her potential for beauty.... however, if someone forces your hand, there is beauty to be found in beating seven kinds of excrement out of somebody, in blood spray patters... (insert rather long list) all without killing.
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Yes and no.
I absolutely agree that you can earn the same amount of gold by employing creative solutions. However, the presence of some items on the chronicle can be impossible to explain when you reason your way through the encounter. Unless, of course, you managed to rob everyone with whom you speak... ;-)
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Yes and no.
I absolutely agree that you can earn the same amount of gold by employing creative solutions. However, the presence of some items on the chronicle can be impossible to explain when you reason your way through the encounter. Unless, of course, you managed to rob everyone with whom you speak... ;-)
That exact possibility is covered in the guide.
Additionally, if the PCs roleplayed past
an NPC who carries a specific potion or scroll that
the PCs might be granted access to on the scenario’s
Chronicle sheet, don’t cross that item off the sheet—
instead, allow the PCs to find the item elsewhere
as a reward for creatively resolving the encounter
without resorting to combat.
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That exact possibility is covered in the guide.Additionally, if the PCs roleplayed past
an NPC who carries a specific potion or scroll that
the PCs might be granted access to on the scenario’s
Chronicle sheet, don’t cross that item off the sheet—
instead, allow the PCs to find the item elsewhere
as a reward for creatively resolving the encounter
without resorting to combat.
I can't wait for the "does that apply only to potions and scrolls, or other items too" debate.
Page 34 is pretty much the nuts.
"Pathfinder Society Organized Play never wants to give the impression that the only way to solve a problem is to kill it - rewarding the creative use of skills and roleplaying not only make Society games more fun for the players, but it also gives the GM a level of flexibility in ensuring players receive the rewards they are due."
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Some enemies fight to death, other can surrender. The XP are the same, in my opinion. also a living prisioner can give information.
Surrender generaly means unconditional surrender, so you can strip the enemy of all her goods. But sometimes it can be negotiable.
In the middle ages, noble prisioners were generaly respected and well treated, but peasant soldiers could be butchered at will. In Old Rome civil wars, enemy officers were executed, but enemy foot legionnaries joined the victor's army.
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Contributor
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Another possibility besides fighting to the death or surrender is escape. I recently played a module level where the final enemy did exactly that. The GM crossed off both a magic item he was wearing and a boon we would have won had we defeated him, but I'm pretty sure we all felt that was reasonable under those circumstances.
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The way PFS scenarios work, the rewards of the encounters are on the chronicle so long as you satisfactorily conclude that encounter. It doesn't matter if you kill them, bypass them, or sweet-talk them.
You don't even have to Greyhawk your kills unless you think the mooks might have some items that will prove immediately useful.
You can just leave your trail of corpses for the rats and you don't lose out on any lewts. Unless, of course, something is called out as only being found if deliberately searched for. But those cloaks of resistance +1 and such, and the coinage for beating the encounter, you get those so long as you win the encounter. In the end, it doesn't matter how you won.
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Yes and no.
I absolutely agree that you can earn the same amount of gold by employing creative solutions. However, the presence of some items on the chronicle can be impossible to explain when you reason your way through the encounter. Unless, of course, you managed to rob everyone with whom you speak... ;-)
That exact possibility is covered in the guide.
Additionally, if the PCs roleplayed past
an NPC who carries a specific potion or scroll that
the PCs might be granted access to on the scenario’s
Chronicle sheet, don’t cross that item off the sheet—
instead, allow the PCs to find the item elsewhere
as a reward for creatively resolving the encounter
without resorting to combat.
So it is. Thank you for refreshing my memory. I suppose that applies even to unique items, such as:
Developer
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In rare circumstances, it is important that a particular foes dies. Usually this is tied to a success condition that should be pretty clear in the adventure.
In rare circumstances, it is also important to defeat certain NPCs in order to earn the encounter's rewards. In the examples that I can recall, this is because the NPCs are actually walking off with the encounter's (i.e. the site's) treasure.
I think it's fair to say that the circumstances in which one does not receive full rewards for solving a situation diplomatically are far fewer than the situations where one does not receive full rewards for using deadly force (Blakros Matrimony anyone?)
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In rare circumstances, it is also important to defeat certain NPCs in order to earn the encounter's rewards. In the examples that I can recall, this is because the NPCs are actually walking off with the encounter's (i.e. the site's) treasure.
Hi John; thanks for replying. I don't mean to be pedantic (truly, I don't), but I'm not sure that clears up things for me. Perhaps an example?
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So it is. Thank you for refreshing my memory. I suppose that applies even to unique items, such as:
** spoiler omitted **
I think the hard part with redacted is FINDING redacted. Not finding redacted is failing the "encounter", which does NOT get you the loot, rather than solving it creatively, which does.
Welcome to the Perception Finder Society :)
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I think the hard part with redacted is FINDING redacted. Not finding redacted is failing the "encounter", which does NOT get you the loot, rather than solving it creatively, which does.
Welcome to the Perception Finder Society :)
I always thought that forcing the enemy to retreat counted as winning the encounter. And if it doesn't, aren't we right back to encouraging murder-hobo-ism? :P
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Last week my table descended to the point where they used detect magic to determine whether to kill an NPC or not. When it was determined he had a magic item on him, they took him out.
Yup. Been there dealing with that crap before.
I had diplomacized a hostile NPC to the point where he agreed to leave rather than fight, and a couple of walking stereotypes at my table were crying about it because he was wearing a magic ring and got all butthurt.
I almost wish our VO's would just come out and say "Okay all murderhobos sit at this table. People capable of doing anything else, that table."
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I always thought that forcing the enemy to retreat counted as winning the encounter.
It does. If its important i just assume they drop it while fleeing for their lives.
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It does. If its important i just assume they drop it while fleeing for their lives.
** spoiler omitted **
It doesn't seem terribly realistic for someone to "drop" a belt while fleeing, for example. Unless your combats look very different from mine, of course. ;-)
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It does. If its important i just assume they drop it while fleeing for their lives.
** spoiler omitted **
** spoiler omitted **
It doesn't seem terribly realistic for someone to "drop" a belt while fleeing, for example. Unless your combats look very different from mine, of course. ;-)
The Fabulous Fabrizio is no longer allowed to cast charm person and have a +23 diplomacy....
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Venture-Lieutenant, Minnesota—Minneapolis
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It doesn't seem terribly realistic for someone to "drop" a belt while fleeing, for example. Unless your combats look very different from mine, of course. ;-)
Quick way to discard everything on the belt to reduce encumbrance. It would work better though in response to an Improved Dirty Trick.
There are a lot of things that get glossed over in order to make the game more playable, especially given the environment of Organized Play. Treat it as them finding his back up stash that just happens to have the same stuff.
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When an NPC retreats with loot, the heroes still get the value towards the chronicle.
If an NPC hits his "run away threshold" called out in tactics, the players shouldn't suffer any downsides for failing to murderhobo the fleeing slob... other than not having said gear actually in hand in play. Even if the GM forgets to have a chest magically inserted in the plot that "coincidentally" has duplicates of all the gear the defeated NPCs had, the players will still have access to the items when the chronicle is handed out after the game.
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No, going full murderhobo isn't required. You don't even necessarily have to fight opponents to end up with full gold. Plenty of scenarios specify that you have to overcome the encounter, that doesn't have to mean fight.
Wait...that's a solution?
Seriously though, some of my characters have been known to plant themselves between the "kill 'em all and blow shit up" characters and the person we are TRYING to talk to and whisper "Don't even THINK about it." There is murderhoboing and then there is just ridiculousness. (And certain meathead barbarians I could mention are SO lucky PvP is illegal in Society...)
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I almost wish our VO's would just come out and say "Okay all murderhobos sit at this table. People capable of doing anything else, that table."What a fascinating idea...
We did this for The Waking Rune on Hard Mode. One table of murderhobo hyper-optimizers, and one table with more generalists with strong teamwork skills.
The teamwork table killed the infamous final boss effortlessly - and the murderhobo table had four deaths (two got breath of life'd), fled on the wings of a teleport spell with no way to return.
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I've seen one scenario that literally had as part of the text that if you didn't go back through and explicitly ransack the dungeon, naming each item you took, you got gold deducted. It even had a line item requiring you loot every Everburning Torch off the walls or you got hit.
However, that is not the norm. One of my characters (this one) is very talky, and has used diplomacy to talk through encounters on a number of occasions, and outside that one situation I've never felt penalized for it (and for that one, everyone who had played it before was so ticked over that mechanic that they warned us to loot it all).
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I've seen one scenario that literally had as part of the text that if you didn't go back through and explicitly ransack the dungeon, naming each item you took, you got gold deducted. It even had a line item requiring you loot every Everburning Torches off the walls or you got hit.
However, that is not the norm. One of my characters (this one) is very talky, and has used diplomacy to talk through encounters on a number of occasions, and outside that one situation I've never felt penalized for it (and for that one, everyone who had played it before was so ticked over that mechanic that they warned us to loot it all).
"Ok, so you talked us past the kobolds AND they showered you with a bag of gold?
"yup.
"And the four potions of cure light wounds?
"Eyuuup.
"And the girdle of masculinity/femininity?
"Lets not talk about that.
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I guess part of the problem is GMing. Far too often PFS scenarios give only the following brief explanation of encounter tactics- "fights to the death." Now I'm not a rocket scientist, but I have role-played one before and entries and descriptions like these do seem to limit some of the more "diplomatic" approaches to overcoming encounters within a scenario.
The "Hobo Murder Cult"- our local nickname for the Pathfinder Society does lend itself to degenerate (or evolve) into 2 vastly different styles of play in my experience. The first is a role-play, balanced style where various encounters and challenges are creatively resolved- even the combats are creative. And the second, which usually involves the GM stating something to the effect of, "you see the bandit leader and three of his henchmen," and the players in unison shout, "I rolled a [fill in number] for initiative!"
Maybe the scenarios themselves could include a little more in the way of 'encounter tactics' which might inspire a GM to explore new methods (for some) of getting through scenarios... with less dead hobos.
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I guess part of the problem is GMing. Far too often PFS scenarios give only the following brief explanation of encounter tactics- "fights to the death." Now I'm not a rocket scientist, but I have role-played one before and entries and descriptions like these do seem to limit some of the more "diplomatic" approaches to overcoming encounters within a scenario.
The way I read it is that trying to talk to them, offering them surrender, bribes, bluffs, recruiting pamphlets and the like qualifies as outside the box thinking, giving the dm full latitude to have the NPCs act according to the information available
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I guess part of the problem is GMing. Far too often PFS scenarios give only the following brief explanation of encounter tactics- "fights to the death." Now I'm not a rocket scientist, but I have role-played one before and entries and descriptions like these do seem to limit some of the more "diplomatic" approaches to overcoming encounters within a scenario.The way I read it is that trying to talk to them, offering them surrender, bribes, bluffs, recruiting pamphlets and the like qualifies as outside the box thinking, giving the dm full latitude to have the NPCs act according to the information available
BigNorseWolf- you may in fact be right, but when "thinking outside the box" becomes the norm- maybe we need to look at the dimensions of the box itself and if the box is too small, it should be enlarged.
I am a big fan of the PFS guide to organized play- but remember, even with the numerous notable exceptions the key element is:
As a Pathfinder Society GM, you have the right and responsibility to make whatever judgements, within the rules, that you feel are necessary at your table to ensure everyone has a fair and fun experience. This does not mean you can contradict rules or restrictions outlined in this document, a published Pathfinder Roleplaying Game source, errata document, or official FAQ on paizo.com. What it does mean is that only you can judge what is right for your table during cases not covered in these sources.
"Scenarios are meant to be run as written, with no addition or subtraction to number of monsters (unless indicated in the scenario), or changes to armor, feats, items, skills, spells, stats, traits, or weapons."
However, if the actions of the PCs before or during an encounter invalidate the provided tactics or starting locations, the GM should consider whether changing these would provide a more enjoyable play experience.
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@Socalwarhammer, I do believe this is actually covered by the scenarios as written about as well as it reasonably can. Some enemies are written as fighting to the death. In that case, yeah, they're not going to stop. By extension, if you must specify that certain enemies fight to the death, it must mean that the ones that do not have that specification are willing to parley, retreat, or surrender under the right circumstance. If not explicitly defined, it is the GM's responsibility to determine those circumstances based on their knowledge of the NPCs, the scenario, and what the PCs are trying to do. Then there are a few enemies that can only be handled in special ways, in which case it is called out.
I don't think there is really a good way to define every single possibility in the world here - there are so many possible combinations of PCs, situations, and actions that you could fill an entire book the size of the PHB trying to write them all down.
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I've seen one scenario that literally had as part of the text that if you didn't go back through and explicitly ransack the dungeon, naming each item you took, you got gold deducted. It even had a line item requiring you loot every Everburning Torch off the walls or you got hit.
I've literally played every PFS scenario and have no recollection of this. Do you happen to remember the scenario?
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I guess part of the problem is GMing. Far too often PFS scenarios give only the following brief explanation of encounter tactics- "fights to the death." Now I'm not a rocket scientist, but I have role-played one before and entries and descriptions like these do seem to limit some of the more "diplomatic" approaches to overcoming encounters within a scenario.The way I read it is that trying to talk to them, offering them surrender, bribes, bluffs, recruiting pamphlets and the like qualifies as outside the box thinking, giving the dm full latitude to have the NPCs act according to the information available
BigNorseWolf- you may in fact be right, but when "thinking outside the box" becomes the norm- maybe we need to look at the dimensions of the box itself and if the box is too small, it should be enlarged.
I am a big fan of the PFS guide to organized play- but remember, even with the numerous notable exceptions the key element is:
Why is that the key element? Everything you're describing IS the box. Creative solutions is a rule, rules reached with it are within the rules.
However, if the actions of the PCs before or during an encounter invalidate the provided tactics or starting locations, the GM should consider whether changing these would provide a more enjoyable play experience.
If the NPCs are being offered 50 gold to attack the pcs, and the pcs offer them 100 gold to go away and can lay down the diplomacy check... i think thats pretty much invalidated.
The box is small, pine, and many pathfinders try to fill it. We shouldn't punish the ones that try not to. Someone dropping a belt may seem slightly unrealistic, but not nearly as unrealistic as some murderhobo parties not winding up as 11 of ten of absoloms most wanted.
