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My wife and I will be joining a Kingmaker campaign in a couple weeks, four players, 15 point buy.
The GM has told us that the other two players will be playing a monk and an investigator, and suggested that a caster would be helpful. (I was joking that when he said any races were acceptable that I should try a centaur cavalier)
From the player's guide it seems like a ranger/druid would be helpful, at least for the wilderness exploration portion, but it also looks like the party possibly needs a front liner, healing and possibly archery.
I was originally thinking an Aasimar cleric of Erastil, to provide support and a long bow, at least to get us going, possibly multi-classing out of it later (Paladin? Dunno if the degree of evil opponents)
We've been discussing whether to go with a wizard or summoner as the other class.
So, any thoughts?
A nature type is extremely useful for KM. Druids are nature, full caster, and can heal.
Summoner would be better for the other char, IMO, as the eidolon can tank, whoch the monk will need help with.
This is one of the few campaigns in which a Cavalier is actually almost always going to be at full power. Plus they are natural kings. ;)
Then a Druid with an animal companion, you would have 3 combatants, 2 animal companions, a skill monkey/sage/trapfinder, a full caster, and a 2/3 "caster". Not too shabby of a party.
Personally, if I ever play in a Kingmaker campaign, I am playing a Warlord from Path of War.
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The Forge of Combat essay was written to answer this exact question. That metaphor has three combat roles:
Hammer => Inflicts HP damage
Arm => Support
Anvil => Battlefield Control
The ideal well-balanced party has an Anvil, an Arm, and several Hammers.
This party has a Monk, an Investigator, and your two PCs.
Monk => Hammer
Investigator => Depends on Build. Probably Hammer and secondary Arm.
This party has no Anvil, and could probably use at least another secondary Arm. Both those roles are best covered by spell casters.
Some examples of Anvil-style characters: God-style Arcane Caster (but not Blaster style, unless it's a Blockbuster), Heaven's Oracle, and Hangover Cleric and three powerful variants of Anvil-style characters. There are many others.
Some examples of Arm-style characters are: Bard, almost all divine casters, Evangelist archetype cleric. There are many others.
Party's lacking the Anvil role tend to suffer badly. Make sure one of you covers that. The Arm role may already be half-covered by the Inquisitor, depending on build details.
It's usually possible for one character to fully cover a primary role and half-cover a secondary role. This means you two have a lot of options. For instance, a Heaven's Oracle thoroughly fills the Anvil role while also doing an excellent job as an Arm. If one of you played a Heaven's Oracle the other could then play anything at all, as all the roles would be well covered.
Pretty much the one thing you don't want to do is show up with two more Hammer-style PCs. This would leave your party totally lacking in battlefield control and weak at buffs and healing. Groups that make this mistake often change things around after the first few fatalities.
There are very few dungeons in Kingmaker, and the ones that exist are pretty short. However, that assumes the GM is going to run vanilla Kingmaker without any additions, since there's plenty of opportunities to add dungeons and such. Therefore, as Gambit said, mounted classes actually perform quite well, especially if your GM isn't making you meticulously track your food, encumbrance, etc. (Feed for a horse is cheap, but very heavy and very bulky.)
Ranged classes in particular can shine in this AP because so much of the combat takes place out in the open, so Ranger/Slayer/etc are good choices, as are any of the caster types. In fact, you might want to take a good hard look at the Arcanist as a caster, because of how the AP is structured. The versatility the class offers by straddling the line between wizard and sorcerer is perfect for the 1-2 encounters/day structure of Kingmaker.
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** spoiler omitted **...
The Heaven's Oracle seems like a good fit for an Aasimar too... can "dump" Wisdom or see if I can get the GM to approve using Blood Of Angels and go with Archon (for a Con boost) or Garuda (for a Dex boost) blooded version.
Heck, maybe I can swing a Halfling based Angel-blooded Aasimar for the other one for an Order of the Paw Cavalier?
Thanks for the advice. Will definitely try pulling together the Oracle, and will lean towards a Druid for the other.
I'd recommend trying to make at least one a Charisma based character. There are places where the party will find a character who can do well on a CHR roll more than passingly useful and the party doesn't seem to have a face yet.
Also, once you get to the kingdom-building portion of the game, the Ruler is entirely Charisma-based, whereas all the other positions offer two stats to choose from. So if you have the highest Charisma, you're more likely to end up the Ruler and the kingdom will benefit significantly. (Especially in the beginning when every bonus counts.) An Aasimar Oracle of the Heavens would make for an interesting Ruler, and would definitely have the Charisma to pull it off.
This also seems like the one Adventure Path where it might be really handy to have a Battle Herald (prestige class that starts from 2 base classes, of which Evangelist Cleric is probably the best base class for the Inspire Courage half and Cavalier is the base class for the Challenge half).
Battle Herald prestige class link
Battle Herald guide link
Discussion thread (for guide) link
Kingmaker has lots of differences to "normal" APs. As others have mentioned. Another one is the amount of down time. It is great for a crafting character. Our party has a wizard who is always making something for someone.
I have a paladin and have not suffered a lack of things to smite. The mount is great as well.
I'll second the ideas both that having a full caster would be very useful, and that a Charisma-based character can really come in handy. You could cover both bases in a single character with an Oracle, or divide it up. I would suggest that at least one character takes a Battlefield control "Anvil" role, echoing Magda.
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The player's guide makes me think that we really need an outdoorsy type, so we're leaning druid for the other class. My wife's played a Saurian Shaman in PFS before, so maybe she'll want the Oracle.
That said, if crafting is a big part of this, should we be looking at an arcane caster?
I do like the idea of the Battle Herald but I have no idea what sort of build the Investigator or Monk is going with.
For full caster, you need some way to get full arcane caster and full divine caster. Unfortunately, since you have only 4 players and the 2 decided ones are already not playing full casters, if you go the conventional route with this (Wizard and Cleric, or something like that), it shoots out the idea to do anything else (including Battle Herald, which just dips in Evangelist Cleric if you use that to start with). So you need a way to shoehorn both full arcane caster and full divine caster into one character. The most obvious but not the easiest way to do this is Mystic Theurge:
Mystic Theurge prestige class link
Mystic Theurge guide (Angry Wiggles) link
Mystic Theurge disscussion thread (for guide) link
More than any other guide, MAKE SURE YOU READ THIS GUIDE! Not only is Mystic Theurge hard to do right (due to inevitable delays in spellcasting progression), but this is an awesome guide in its own right! Mystic Theurge gets you TWO spell lists (one arcane and one divine), and (after a preferably short delay) up to TEN levels of full progression in both SIMULTANEOUSLY; the Combined Spells ability is good for emergency use in case you run out of one type of spells but still have some of the other type, and the Spell Synthesis capstone is not too shabby, although the 1/day limitation keeps it from being awesome. Mystic Theurge is the way to go if your 15 minute adventuring day often turns into a 15 hour adventuring day, and you need every last nickel and dime spell slot. You just have to be REALLY CAREFUL with the initial steps of your build (hence, first see the guide linked above, and then go to the discussion thread linked above if you have any questions). You also need to take into account the fact that you are going to be really squishy unless you are a Half-Elf with Multitalented Mastery (which unfortunately shoots out at least half of the idea of using spell-like abilities to gain early entry into Mystic Theurge, but keep it in the back of your mind, because Half-Elf is also likely to be the best race choice for most Battle Herald builds, if the other undecided player is going to play the Battle Herald). You COULD alleviate squishiness by being a Half-Orc or Orc and having your arcane half be a Scarred Witch Doctor, but this has the same problem as Half-Elf and doesn't let you avoid being MAD, and since the Witch spell list is part divine anyway it normally doesn't synergize as well with your divine class. For a possible exception to this, see this thread, but then consider changing some things around as noted in some posts after the original post, and keep in mind that to be an actual party member in Kingmaker, you aren't actually going to want to optimize for being so far away, and keep in mind that since (as Haldrick noted above) Kingmaker is good for Crafting, you have a better chance of getting a Ring of Regeneration to obviate the need for the Verminous Hunter shenanigans (you might not actually want to spend the feat on Craft Ring, but if you can craft something else, you have a better position from which to get a Ring of Regeneration by trading with someone who can make rings but who wants something you can make).
The next most obvious class choice is Witch, which gives you a single spell list that has a pretty good combination of arcane and divine spells (although the whole thing is considered arcane). Of course, the Witch spell list is missing some spells from both the arcane and divine sides, but with a good choice of Patron, you can mitigate this somewhat. This also gets you the potential for some awesome debuffing ability (see this guide, and consider being a Halfling to get the Halfling Jinx alternate racial trait, even though Halfling doesn't give you a bonus to INT). Alternatively, if you are a Half-Orc or Orc, you can be a Scarred Witch Doctor and lose the squishiness, and if you (preferably first) take a 1 level dip in some martial class and you don't care about the Hex progression beyond Witch level 6, you can go Eldritch Knight (the relevant guide to this prestige class unfortunately just barely mentions Scarred Witch Doctor, so you're largely on your own) and be a pretty good Gish without exceeding the 2 levels of delayed caster level progression that can be alleviated by taking the trait Magical Knack (which, by the way, is also just about a must-have for Mystic Theurge). Other Witch choices are probably all less powerful, but should be workable -- just be careful out there in the untamed wilderness. Witch even has a Hex Channeler archetype that trades up to all but your 1st level Hex (which anchors your ability to take the Extra Hex feat to get some of them back) to get channeling like a Cleric, if you feel you need that.
Magambyan Arcanist Prestige Class (Collegiate Arcanist on d20pfsrd.com) gets you full arcane casting with a bit of divine (specifically Druid) casting mixed in. Since this only gives you a bit of divine casting, you probably want the other player to play a 6/9 divine caster. Inquisitor would be a good choice, since you won't have a Battle Herald for party buffing. You COULD have the other player use a Battle Herald build that gets 4 or 5 levels of Evangelist Cleric and just 1 or 2 levels of Standard Bearer Cavalier before entry, but this will leave you without a mount, which is usually considered a good thing for Battle Herald builds, but may hurt specifically in Kingmaker due to all the open ground you have to cover, and even 5 levels of Evangelist Cleric still isn't very many levels of divine caster. (Although if you are the other player and going this route, and the offer for your joke build of being a Centaur Cavalier is still open, TAKE IT! Mount problem rendered moot, and you could even be the mount for a party member that can't afford the heavy feat tax to get a full or near-full progression mount when not being a Cavalier, Druid, Hunter, Paladin, Ranger, Samurai, or Summoner (or some weird archetype that I missed that gets you a full or near-full progression mount in a class that doesn't normally have one) and who also doesn't have flight of sufficient duration to obviate the need for a mount.)
Ancient Lorekeeper Oracle (Elven archetype) gets you full divine casting with a bit of Arcane (specifically Sorcerer/Wizard, offset 1 level later) casting mixed in. Since this only gives you a bit of arcane casting, you probably want the other character to be a Bard (to make up for not having a Battle Herald; Bard is actually also the original Inspire Courage half of entry into Battle Herald, but you won't have enough levels of it).
The ill-named "White Mage" archetype of Arcanist gives you full arcane casting with a bit of divine mixed in. See Magambyan Arcanist above for note about the other character.
Spell Sage archetype of Wizard gives you full arcane casting with an inefficient and highly limited bit of divine casting mixed in. See Magambyan Arcanist above for note about the other character.
Spirit Summoner archetype gives you 6/9 arcane casting with several early entry spells (which alleviates the fact of not being a full arcane caster) and a bit of divine casting mixed in, but need to explore this more to be able to figure out just how much this gives you.
Maybe Shaman could work for a Witch/Mystic Theurge substitute with the appropriate choice of Spirits, but I haven't studied this class enough to be sure whether this fits the bill of substituting for a full arcane caster and a full divine caster; the core Shaman spell list seems rather small.
One thing you have going for you is that one of the decided players will be playing an Investigator, which uses the Alchemist spell (actually extract) list, which has a mix of traditionally arcane and traditionally divine spells in it, thus somewhat alleviating your spellcasting crunch (this will work better if that player gets the Infusion discovery so that extracts will still work when handed to other party members). Investigator also looks pretty awesome in its own right, after an initial delay in which the first 2 or 3 levels are a bit on the weak side.
Sure would like to get to do some of this stuff myself, but first I have to write up a character build and find a PbP that will let me in . . . .
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thanks again for everyone's input.
I've been reading the Mystic Theurge stuff, and I've probably missed something, but it seems like an Aasimar Heavens Oracle/Sorcerer (or witch, for that matter) would be possible for early entry while just maxing out Charisma for spells.
I do see that double spontaneous casters aren't preferred, so I am thinking I could go with Peri Blooded Aasimar, but I'm worried about having low or dumped physical traits and being too squishy. (Right now I'm think about about starting Blackened Heavens Oracle with 8-10-12-16-10-18 stat array, getting color spray @ 2nd level with Awesome Display. 3rd level I could start with wizard and go on from there.
That way we can do the Battle Herald for the other class. (The centaur was my joke, but I guess it wouldn't hurt to ask)
The reason against double spontaneous casters is that it's really nice to have the versatility of a prepared caster backing up the power of a spontaneous caster when building a Theurge. It's basically the reason I like Arcanist so much, though it relies a lot more on class abilities that wouldn't progress as a Theurge, whereas Wizards don't give up very much at all to become Theurges.
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Very little dungeon diving.
Eventually in this Kingdom builder jobs will be assigned based on stats. A Cha based character will be in heaven this campaign.
Also nature based classes will shine very brightly.
My recommendation based on current party make up is:
Feather domain evanglist cleric paired with a Sylvan Sorcerer. The double animal companions with all those buff will be insane.
Make sure your animals take teamwork feats like outflank. Sic them on things like a pack of hunting animals buffed to insane levels.
A Cleric with the Animal and Plant (Growth) domains could be a solid Arm/Hammer and A Sorcerer focused on battlefield control and out of combat magic should be the Anvil/Face you need to fill the roles.
Plenty of other things work, but you want a high charisma character and the monk and investigator probably aren't.
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I'm going to continue to toy with the Oracle/Wizard/M.T. build, but I found out today that our GM is absolutely fine with a centaur so...
yeah, gonna have a centaur. If I read the ARG correctly, that's +4/+2/+2 to physical stats and a +2 to wisdom. I'm thinking either Druid, Ranger or Hunter, but I need to keep it thematic and actually make sense
Now I have to figure out how to Centaur, and hope the little dungeon diving is right.
Might I suggest taking a look at the Shaman as a possibility for your centaur? It would be very thematic, offer a decent amount of versatility, and can serve as either an arm or anvil, while still being able to deal damage because of the impressive physical stat bonuses.
I don't know how cool your DM is with 3rd party stuff, but the Theurge class from Kobold Press (a highly respected 3rd party publisher) might be just what you're looking for.
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Might I suggest taking a look at the Shaman as a possibility for your centaur? It would be very thematic, offer a decent amount of versatility, and can serve as either an arm or anvil, while still being able to deal damage because of the impressive physical stat bonuses.
This is great advice...I highly recommend Shaman or Druid. In the end you will end up being crazy powerful. I like the shaman idea as I like their spell list and hexes. The druid would offer a animal companion, Your awesome physical increases, and 9th level spells. I feel the druid would offer more things. Options are always nice.
But both are very powerful choices for this campaign.
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I hate it when players in a group just say "I want to play x" without any discussion amoung themselves about how x fits into the group and what their role is. My group does it all the time and it drives me mad.
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Might I suggest taking a look at the Shaman as a possibility for your centaur? It would be very thematic, offer a decent amount of versatility, and can serve as either an arm or anvil, while still being able to deal damage because of the impressive physical stat bonuses.This is great advice...I highly recommend Shaman or Druid. In the end you will end up being crazy powerful. I like the shaman idea as I like their spell list and hexes. The druid would offer a animal companion, Your awesome physical increases, and 9th level spells. I feel the druid would offer more things. Options are always nice.
But both are very powerful choices for this campaign.
honestly, that's where I'm stumbling right now - it might be too powerful, especially early on. My version of PC-Gen is even more powerful than the ARG -it's giving +4 for physical stats and +2 for Wis/Cha, which is clearly wrong. I prefer support characters - or, at least, cogs. I don't want to solo encounters.
I guess I'll just grab a nature based character of some sort to round out the party.
thanks again for all the advice.
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Druids are great this AP. Coming down to a normal race will curb the power back.
There is always the nature oracle...you can get a mount, cha for AC ands Reflex saves instead of dex, and a few other outside powers. Take the feat divine protection and you have insane saves.
just to follow up...
my PC Gen harfed on me just before we took off, so I was left with my musetouched aasimar halfling cavalier beast rider, and my wife has a plumekith aasimar druid. our other characters are an undine flowing monk and a dwarven fighter (apparently the investigator idea fell through)
we nearly died against some boars on the way to the first written encounter.
I think I need to get a bard level (at the least) to try to get some arcane spells, because it seemed like we're just not ready for a real fight.
but on the upside, our GM is focusing on the roleplay, and we all had fun.
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Yeah, that group has no arcane caster and no one to handle battlefield control. Until that's handled this group will struggle in combat.
well, the druid preps entangle, but even with an 18 WIS gets 2 spells a day. i've got glitterdust as an SLA 1/day.
As for ranged, I have a short bow (went with a dex focus), the druid has a sling (ugh) and the monk has javelins, although the one fight we won he'd been swimming and ended up naked, so was fighting unarmed. Also, he'll be forever known as the Blue Streak (was the nicer of the options)
A magus would mesh nicely with cavalier and it gives you a decent set of arcane damage and melee options. Eldritch knight/witch plus whatever random Pathfinder feat gives you levels for your mount is another way to go. Witches can heal, their hexes are a nice power set, and are full spellcasters. Magi can also cast in armor.