we have had few pathfinder games already with my usual friend group that i play warhammer 40k and other stuff with. now today i just gave up at half a point because being GM for them is just too hard.
they lack imagination completely and have really bad memory, i seriously dont know how to advice them on how the game should be played. today we played hostage situation where fey was keeping one of their friends as hostage under water(using spells and stuff) and would only give him back if they go away and butcher nearby wood cutters or hush them away.
only things they could come up were killing the wood cutters or killing the fey. but they couldnt do them (wood cutters promised tons of money for killing the fey, fey would dispell the spells on their friend and kill him almost instantly if they tried to attack him) it was 1 hour of talking to the wood cutters and the fey, they counldnt understand why fey that has lived 200 years on same lake wouldnt want to leave even when it would die out side of it fast or why the wood cutters wanted wood from there even when it was lot more better quality tree than on other places.
all that g~* d!@ned time i gave them some hints on what to do and like that, also used it to give them as much info about world that i could. but then i just gave up and said "f@*# it" and told them that they have s@@$ty imagination.
it shocked them when i told them what i would do in that situation and that they could do that. earlier in the game they had come agross a shady bridge, they could ACTUALLY LIE that there are nice trees there and that they wouldnt need to trouble the fey if they went there. hopefully the bridge would collapse because the wood cutters are stupid to all just rush through it with all equipment. meaning that they wouldnt be coming back.
could someone give me some advice on how to explain how the game works, how to use your imagination and how to play "in character" or how to make them use their imagination more?
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Sounds like your players are tailor made for railroad storyline adventures.
All aboard the Plot-Train! Whoot-whoot!
Once they begin to get bored of or chafe at structure limiting their options, you can begin to re-introduce decision points, and eventually maybe even getting them into sandbox style adventuring. But sounds like they're either not ready for it right now, or simply not interested in it.
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1) It sounds like you had a very specific solution in mind, with the bridge. Rule 1 of GMing is "the players are NOT going to do the thing you expect them to do", so if you forget Rule 1 then you are going to get frustrated.
2) If you're not having fun, maybe Pathfinder is not the right game to play.
1) It sounds like you had a very specific solution in mind, with the bridge. Rule 1 of GMing is "the players are NOT going to do the thing you expect them to do", so if you forget Rule 1 then you are going to get frustrated.
2) If you're not having fun, maybe Pathfinder is not the right game to play.
the bridge wasnt only solution (also i came up with it on the fly, i didnt even plan it), i had come up with multiple different out comes for what to happen, they could have just really killed the wood cutters and taken the money (and fey would give their friend back) but for some "i dont even know what" reason they wouldnt have gotten money then, it seems they have imagination where it shouldn't be and thought the money was somewhere else than wood cutters pockets.
of coarse that would have been boring, but they could have also tried to negotiate some kind of agreement between the fey and wood cutters like wood cutters get some wood and fey gets something in return but they couldnt even come up with simething simple as that. there are so many different things they could have done.
also, good idea deusvult, i might stop this game and talk with them if they liked railroad adventure more and choose one from the store that looks nice, after few of those they might indeed have better skills and imagination and stuff. i might give them one last try with this before that, maybe little talk with them about imagination first or something like that.
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Please forgive my lack of empathy, but CRY ME A RIVER. Oh no! Your players are having a difficult time deciding what to do! Maybe it's because you threw a moral quandry their way and expected them to be evil, like your solution to the problem clearly was. Maybe they're new players and aren't accustomed to how an open, living story works (as many gamers aren't at first). Whatever the reason, snapping at them because they can't figure it out is silly. If your players can't figure out an acceptable course of action, then YOU need to step up your game, and I tell you this as someone who had had the exact same problem for a long time, but didn't blame his players.
Please forgive my lack of empathy, but CRY ME A RIVER. Oh no! Your players are having a difficult time deciding what to do! Maybe it's because you threw a moral quandry their way and expected them to be evil, like your solution to the problem clearly was. Maybe they're new players and aren't accustomed to how an open, living story works (as many gamers aren't at first). Whatever the reason, snapping at them because they can't figure it out is silly. If your players can't figure out an acceptable course of action, then YOU need to step up your game, and I tell you this as someone who had had the exact same problem for a long time, but didn't blame his players.
if everyone wants the truth then we were not actually on that point for 1 hour.we were there for whole 3 hours and that whole time was first 30min of combat of trying to kill the fey because they decided that it was the easier way until he took their friend as hostage, then it was 2 and half hours of talking about weather they should kill the wood cutters, leave their friend and buzz of, kill the fey or talk the fey out of its house that it cant leave or it dies (and he said that at least 10 times)
also i didnt snap, maybe sounded super annoyed and looked frustrated. i might have accidentally exaggerated my own reaction. they also admitted them selfs that they dont have really good imagination (we are talking about this now on chat too) and i would like to help them on that.
also, my players are evil, only reason they didnt kill the wood cutters was because there were too many of them and they (for some reason) believed that they wouldnt get money out of it.
soni1x: sadly we all are really bad with people and would need to take just some random persons to our game (none of our other friends like this kind of stuff) and that would just make gaming harder.
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Just give up, I personally would simply get rid of them. Even if they are your friends, sometimes, your friends lack the ability to grasp your hobbies, in that case, find new friends. I am not saying to never speak to them again, I am saying to simply never try to do anything that requires more creativity than a Rorschach test with them again.
Pathfinder is a totally different game than Warhammer 40k. You can't expect someone who's good at one to immediately be good at the other.
What I'm saying is that there is a learning curve, roleplaying does require some amount of training, especially at first. You have to breadcrumb them a bit. Call for wisdom check. Suggest uses for diplomacy or bluff or Knowledge skills or something.
Also, i have to say, the situation you created doesn't seem like something terribly entertaining. You seem to have concocted a "one right solution" scenario where, even when they "win," the characters lose. And on something that is two steps away from a random encounter, that's kind of unacceptable.
Your characters' friend would "instantly die"? How? Why? That doesn't make any sense. He can float, can't he? Pathfinder is super-generous with the breath-holding, and Swim's not that hard even in heavy armor, so what's up with that?
And if the player characters' only reason for not conducting mass slaughter was "ain't paid enough," they hardly seem like the type to worry too much about their friend. Let him sleep with the fish-girl for a while, he'll be fine!
And finally... Not every gaming session has to be plot progress. Sometimes your people just want to get together and talk about how htey are trimming hte nails of their animal companion, while gorging on pizza and mountain dew.
In conclusion...
1) Don't stress too hard. Iz only game. Why heff be mad?
2) New players require coaching.
2.5) Evil parties are probably not a great idea for new players.
3) Your role as GM is to have fun while helping them have fun. If they're facing what they feel is an impossible scenario, it's not fun for them, and it falls to you to un-impossible it somehow.
4) if you plan out n arc, it will be kicked over, looted, chopped, re-looted for raw materials, then burned by players who want to discuss their +8 knife against ogres with tavern wenches.
we have had few pathfinder games already with my usual friend group that i play warhammer 40k and other stuff with. now today i just gave up at half a point because being GM for them is just too hard.
they lack imagination completely and have really bad memory, i seriously dont know how to advice them on how the game should be played. today we played hostage situation where fey was keeping one of their friends as hostage under water(using spells and stuff) and would only give him back if they go away and butcher nearby wood cutters or hush them away.
only things they could come up were killing the wood cutters or killing the fey. but they couldnt do them (wood cutters promised tons of money for killing the fey, fey would dispell the spells on their friend and kill him almost instantly if they tried to attack him) it was 1 hour of talking to the wood cutters and the fey, they counldnt understand why fey that has lived 200 years on same lake wouldnt want to leave even when it would die out side of it fast or why the wood cutters wanted wood from there even when it was lot more better quality tree than on other places.
all that g&@ d%*ned time i gave them some hints on what to do and like that, also used it to give them as much info about world that i could. but then i just gave up and said "f&*~ it" and told them that they have s%~+ty imagination.
it shocked them when i told them what i would do in that situation and that they could do that. earlier in the game they had come agross a shady bridge, they could ACTUALLY LIE that there are nice trees there and that they wouldnt need to trouble the fey if they went there. hopefully the bridge would collapse because the wood cutters are stupid to all just rush through it with all equipment. meaning that they wouldnt be coming back.
could someone give me some advice on how to explain how the game works, how to use your imagination and how to play "in character" or how to make them use their imagination more?
I'm seeing more of an issue with bad GMing than bad players.
I agree with them - Why in the world would the fey want to leave the water if they'd die outside of it?
Why would the woodcutters care about the trees here if there are better ones somewhere else? Why would the woodcutters not know if there were nice trees or not in this area close enough to walk to? They're woodcutters - they'll know where the good wood is and isn't.
Even if there was good wood over there, why would they immediately just stampede over there instead of sending someone over there to check it out, then prepare the way with clearing out roads, checking out the bridge, etc.?
Why would the characters immediately leap to "murder all of these innocent people in order to get our friends back"?
I get that you were trying to get them to do some problem solving. The problem is that it appears that you gave them a problem that should never have been in the first place and then really didn't have a solution.
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Creativity is a skill, not an inherent ability.
Add more activities into the group mix that rely on creativity. There are lots of games (not just RPG's) that rely heavily on creativity, such as the card game Once Upon a Time.
There are also a lot of short RPG's designed to last a single session (2-4 hours) which are low on mechanics and heavy on the creativity, such as Fiasco.
Think of it in physical fitness terms. Games like this isolate the creative "muscles" of the brain, which helps build various creative skills which improves our ability to roleplay. A game like Pathfinder certainly uses those skills, but it also accesses other skills, like tactical and strategic thinking, so the focus is more broad.
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It is always good to provide multiple solutions for the players with each having their own consequences...and then be ready for the ones the players come up with. :)
Also, it may not be that your players are uncreative, but that you may not be doing your job in the delivery. Frustrated players sometimes stop listening when they cannot follow the story or cannot see a solution.
Creativity is a skill, not an inherent ability.
Add more activities into the group mix that rely on creativity. There are lots of games (not just RPG's) that rely heavily on creativity, such as the card game Once Upon a Time.
There are also a lot of short RPG's designed to last a single session (2-4 hours) which are low on mechanics and heavy on the creativity, such as Fiasco.
Think of it in physical fitness terms. Games like this isolate the creative "muscles" of the brain, which helps build various creative skills which improves our ability to roleplay. A game like Pathfinder certainly uses those skills, but it also accesses other skills, like tactical and strategic thinking, so the focus is more broad.
Absolutey this. A lot of people forget how to imagine - much less imagine creatively. And it's getting more common with railroad video games that give specific instruction with detailed maps on where to go and how to solve the mission, or with TV just giving a straight story with image and sound and no thought required.
Getting your imagination back requires practice and patience, just like learning any other skill. Be patient, and help them along as they start to fuel their own imaginations back. Meanwhile, try a couple modules or APs to give them some easier boundaries. Have them describe their actions in combat to help stretch those brain muscles. Tell them to read more books - perhaps some non-D&D fantasy books will help the imagination grow again. Then try some old first edition modules - such as keep on the borderlands - which really helps build imagination as it is a very non-railroad adventure and one of the great classics.
For your own reading, I suggest the Fantasy Roleplaying Gamers Bible. The games it talks about are out-dated, but the rest is still great material.
To be fair, assuming this is the encounter I'm thinking of (from Kingmaker), a lot of the problem comes from the way the encounter is written. The only 'easy' way to resolve the encounter requires items the party won't have yet, from an NPC they haven't met yet, given away to a fey who seems unable to even grant fair compensation. If it IS Kingmaker, remind the players that they are the law and the woodsmen should be reminded of that fact so that they can be made to reason with the seemingly murderous fey.
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1. Gods of Madness usually do well in making the players have to answer unusual situations in unusual ways.
2. Create an "impossible" situation and give no clear answer. Example!
could someone give me some advice on how to explain how the game works, how to use your imagination and how to play "in character" or how to make them use their imagination more?
If someone can grasp the rules of 40k, then I don't think Pathfinder would be that hard on a technical level. You describe what are presumably smart, capable people who are having trouble using their imaginations.
You and your team might benefit from playing an adventure path or some pre-written module or other. If nothing else it will test the problem solving skills of your group without you having made the scenario. Think of it as an experiment.