Is the Death Roll ability of the Crocodile domain a trap for Druids? Can Druids be good scrappers?
I'd say without investing into it (multiple feats) or having an animal form that has grab it's prolly not any good. As a Druid your CMB isn't great and anyways the added effects of death roll aren't so spectacular to make me wanna build around it.
Yes it's a trap (d8 and trip against a foe you already grapple? With no way to buff AND it's limited/day? How about nah), but also yes, they can be good scrappers. Especially now with the familiar folio stuff out for your caiman buddy.
Alex Mack wrote: I'd say without investing into it (multiple feats) or having an animal form that has grab it's prolly not any good. As a Druid your CMB isn't great and anyways the added effects of death roll aren't so spectacular to make me wanna build around it.
So, invest into it. I think it's fair to say that no martial combination is all that good unless you invest into it.
Death Roll adds Tripping to your Bite Attack, and there's nothing wrong with either Tripping or Biting. We're talking about getting this through wild shaping, into some kind of crocodile, I guess, and most kinds of animals you might turn into--including many PC races--have some kind of Bite Attack, so you wouldn't say it's a trap to develop your Bite Attack, would you? If you commit to polymorphing into a crocodillian by becoming a Saurian Shaman Druid, you specialize into transforming into all kinds of reptiles, including Dinosaurs. You can become aquatic, terrestrial, or you can fly. And you can have a powerful bite however you go. The trap's not there. You do lose Dex and AC just for growing big, but you gain Natural Armor. Reptilian Natural Armor tends to be quite good. And if you plan ahead, and have Barding armor made for you for your favorite Wild Shapes.
As you change into creatures of larger size, your attack roll goes down, but your CMB goes up. A Maneuver build of some kind is a sensible way to go with a Wildshape build.
prototype00 is working on a Guide for Wildshaping Martial characters (heh, seems like I'm working on it, too), and he doesn't care for the Improved Natural Attack Feat, but I do. INA doesn't stack with Strong Jaw, but you don't always have time to buff yourself all you want before combat.
How do you develop a Trip Build? For starters, Greater Trip, Fury's Fall, and Vicious Stomp. As you change into creatures of larger size, your Dex goes down, but your strength goes up. With Fury's Fall, you get them both, anyway. Normally, I'd recommend you get Punishing Kick or the Harder they Fall feats so you can keep Tripping creatures larger than you, but a Druid can solve that problem by just Wildshping into bigger and bigger things. Most people like to have Tripping weapons with Reach, but when you Wildshape into bigger and bigger things, you get more reach, too. Druids get Wildshape at level 4, and a Saurian Shaman Druid Wildshapes as reptiles at +2, so at level 4, they can 'shape into a crocodile, size large with Death Roll. As they gain levels in Druid, they add Saltwater Crocodile, Huge, and Dire Crocodile, Gargantuan.
You might invest feats faster by taking levels in Fighter or Monk or something. If you do that a lot, take the Shaping Focus Feat, so that your nonDruid levels will count as Druid levels as you multiclass. You might consider levels in Monk and the Feral Combat Training Feat. With FCT, you can apply your Monk Unarmed Strike Damage to your Natural Attack, such as your Bite, which will then size up as you Wild Shape into bigger things. Even if you don't get any benefit from that, you can Flurry of Blows with your Dire Crocodile Bite. But you can also use US Feats with your Bite Attack, such as Snake Fang, and make Attacks of Opportunity with your Bite, also Grabbing and Death Rolling every time. If you take Monastic Legacy, your MUSD will continue to grow as you multiclass, not as quickly, but still respectably.
I don't think it's a trap, or at least not a trap that a Gargantuan Crocodile in Spiked Armor can't handle.
Scott Wilhelm wrote: Alex Mack wrote: I'd say without investing into it (multiple feats) or having an animal form that has grab it's prolly not any good. As a Druid your CMB isn't great and anyways the added effects of death roll aren't so spectacular to make me wanna build around it.
So, invest into it. I think it's fair to say that no martial combination is all that good unless you invest into it.
Death Roll adds Tripping to your Bite Attack, and there's nothing wrong with either Tripping or Biting. It'd be really nice if it did that, but that's not what death roll does.
Quote: Death Roll (Ex): While grappling an enemy up to one size category larger than you, you may make a grapple check to roll wildly, knocking your enemy prone and dealing 1d8 points of damage. When using this ability, you gain a bonus to your CMB equal to one half your druid level (minimum 1). You can use this ability a number of times per day equal to 3 + your Wisdom modifier.
It is technically true that Death Roll doesn't Trip. You won't get to add bonuses from various Trip feats you probably won't have to your CMB check. Death Roll also wouldn't trigger AoOs from Greater Trip (which is one of those feats you probably won't have). Death Roll will result in your opponent being Prone though, and that could be pretty nice since it gives the enemy a -4 to AC, attacks, and attempts to escape or reverse your grapple.
I think the only thing which could make this version of Death Roll really suck would be if the DM ruled that the opponent is released from the grapple when you perform a Death Roll. I don't think that's the intent, but since the wording of the Druid's Death Roll is significantly different than that of the regular Crocodile's Death Roll some DMs might read the ability in the way which least favors the PC.
The monster ability reads like:
Death Roll (Ex)
When grappling a foe of its size or smaller, a crocodile can perform a death roll upon making a successful grapple check. As it clings to its foe, it tucks in its legs and rolls rapidly, twisting and wrenching its victim. The crocodile inflicts its bite damage and knocks the creature prone. If successful, the crocodile maintains its grapple.
LoneKnave wrote: Scott Wilhelm wrote: Alex Mack wrote: I'd say without investing into it (multiple feats) or having an animal form that has grab it's prolly not any good. As a Druid your CMB isn't great and anyways the added effects of death roll aren't so spectacular to make me wanna build around it.
So, invest into it. I think it's fair to say that no martial combination is all that good unless you invest into it.
Death Roll adds Tripping to your Bite Attack, and there's nothing wrong with either Tripping or Biting. It'd be really nice if it did that, but that's not what death roll does.
Quote: Death Roll (Ex): While grappling an enemy up to one size category larger than you, you may make a grapple check to roll wildly, knocking your enemy prone and dealing 1d8 points of damage. When using this ability, you gain a bonus to your CMB equal to one half your druid level (minimum 1). You can use this ability a number of times per day equal to 3 + your Wisdom modifier. Where are you getting that quote from? I'm just looking at the descriptions of crocodilians, and they don't consider the number of times/day a Druid 'shaped into a crocodile can Death Roll. I was thinking that when you are a croc, you can roll.
I read the description of Death Roll under Crocodile, an you are right in that you don't make a Trip Combat Maneuver Roll to execute a Death Roll. You make a Grapple Check. That is good news, though. Crocodilians have the Grab ability. When they make a Bite Attack, they get to make a free Grapple Check and Crocodile wrote: a crocodile can perform a death roll upon making a successful grapple check. This means you can achieve the same effect at the cost of fewer feats. You have no size limitation to overcome, but you still get the size bonus on your CMB, now your GMB. Your enemy still falls Prone and that does trigger an Attack of Opportunity from Vicious Stomp. Also,
Crocodile wrote: Special Attacks death roll (1d8+6 plus trip) Even thought it doesn't use the trip-specific bonuses for the CMB check, it is still a Trip, and it therefore triggers Attacks of Opportunity from Greater Trip. In order to make Attacks of Opportunity while Grappling, you need to take 7 levels in Fighter with the Unarmed Archetype, but that's not so bad, because if you want a Trip build--they are lovely--Wild Shaping still gives you your Reach Weapon and gets around the Size limitations. And if you don't want a Trip build, Death Roll just acts sort of like the Constrict Special Attack except that you also get to knock your enemies Prone, and you get an AoO trigger when you get to level 7 Unarmed Fighter
I'm getting it from the crocodile domain ability, which OP asked about.
PS, the ability only works when you are already grappling. If you only initiated grappling with a check (from grab), you can't spin it right away.
The Death Roll ability being discussed here is part of the Crocodile Domain. It has different wording than the ability possessed by the Crocodile monster. The domain ability never says that includes a Trip. I don't believe that Beast Shape grants the Death Roll ability, so Druids interested in Death Rolling might be stuck with the domain version.
I wouldn't call it a trap as long as the Death Roll would count as maintaining the grapple. Sure, pinning might be better in most ways, but you could Death Roll somebody and then Pin them too. Assuming you have some allies to take advantage of all those AC penalties this seems like a pretty nice combination.
LoneKnave wrote: I'm getting it from the crocodile domain ability, which OP asked about.
PS, the ability only works when you are already grappling. If you only initiated grappling with a check (from grab), you can't spin it right away.
Okay, I'm talking about Wildshaping into a crocodile. I didn't even realize there was a crocodile domain. Sorry.
It doesn't say you have to have Initiated a Grapple the previous round nor that Death Roll is a Crocodile maintain-a-grapple check option. It only says you have to be grappling. When you use the Grab Ability, you are grappling, when you make a successful grapple check, you can death roll.
Unless I'm missing something you can't gain the Death Roll ability of a Crocodile by wildshaping into one. If you don't like the version of Death Roll in Crocodile Domain your best bet might be to take some Barbarian levels and get the Raging Grappler rage power, which allows you to knock an opponent prone when you maintain a grapple while raging. My Feral Gnasher uses that power a lot.
I'm pretty sure you get the creature's regular physical attacks when you polymorph into it. You wouldn't get supernatural Abiities. If you Monstrous Physique into a Medusa, you wouldn't get the Gaze Attack, but you would still get the poisonous snake hair.
While I have demonstrated that Druids can be good scrapper, I've already taken this thread much farther off topic than I intended. Could someone link to where I can see the Crocodile Domain?
Crocodile domain
Also Quote: Death Roll (Ex): While grappling an enemy... So you gotta be grappling when you use the ability. When you use bite to use grab you are not grappling (yet).
For further reading on what you gain while using wildshape check this link: Beast Shape
Druids can be decent grapplers without taking any grapple related feats and great grapplers if they make some feat investments. A lot of grapple builds suffer from a bit of lag where they don't really get their damage output revved up until the second round of grappling when they maintain the grapple. Using Grab as part of an AoO can be nice for this. I guess that delivering Frigid Touch via Bite and grabbing the foe could work too.
Devilkiller wrote: For further reading on what you gain while using wildshape check this link: Beast Shape
Druids can be decent grapplers without taking any grapple related feats and great grapplers if they make some feat investments. A lot of grapple builds suffer from a bit of lag where they don't really get their damage output revved up until the second round of grappling when they maintain the grapple. Using Grab as part of an AoO can be nice for this. I guess that delivering Frigid Touch via Bite and grabbing the foe could work too.
I did look at Beast Shape. Beast Shape is a Polymorph spell. And it is in the Polymorph section that I see the Druid gets the animal's attacks.
Are you saying that if a Druid Wildshapes into a creature with Grab, it gets Grab, but if it turns into a creature with Death Roll, it doesn't get Death Roll?
When I make a Grappling character, if I mean to prosecute the grapple, my goal is not to inflict damage, but to Tie Up my opponent, say with Greater Grapple and 2 levels in Cavalier.
When my goal is to inflict damage, I like to use Grab + Armor Spikes + Constrict if I can get it. The idea is to catch and release every round. Say be a Tengu with Claws, take a few levels in Monk to get Snake Fang, 2 levels in White Haired Witch to qualify for Final Embrace, then my Bite, my Claws, my Unarmed Strikes, 4 Attacks of Opportunity, and 1 Immediate Action attack all have Grab and Constrict, and I get Armor Spike Damage. Also, I'd try to acquire a Wand of Monstrous Physique so I can polymorph into 4-armed Sahaugin. Monstrous Physique has the advantage that when you polymorph into a Monstrous Humanoid, you don't lose your gear. If you are Wildshaping, you might address that problem with good preparation, like carrying a bundle of gear to be used while in animal form: a small barrel of brandy for when you turn into a St. Bernard, spiked 8-armed armor for when you turn into a Giant Octopus, etc. Wildshaping Druids also have the advantage that they can turn into bigger and bigger creatures and gain CMB bonuses that way. And their Damage/Attack sizes up, too.
Developing both of those Grapple builds takes 12 levels. If the campaign would go on further, I would develop Dirty Tricks to lock in Sneak Attack Damage with every hit, too.
Scott Wilhelm wrote: Devilkiller wrote: For further reading on what you gain while using wildshape check this link: Beast Shape
Druids can be decent grapplers without taking any grapple related feats and great grapplers if they make some feat investments. A lot of grapple builds suffer from a bit of lag where they don't really get their damage output revved up until the second round of grappling when they maintain the grapple. Using Grab as part of an AoO can be nice for this. I guess that delivering Frigid Touch via Bite and grabbing the foe could work too.
I did look at Beast Shape. Beast Shape is a Polymorph spell. And it is in the Polymorph section that I see the Druid gets the animal's attacks.
Are you saying that if a Druid Wildshapes into a creature with Grab, it gets Grab, but if it turns into a creature with Death Roll, it doesn't get Death Roll?
... You get the attacks, yes. But you only get the special attacks and other stuff if the spell you use or simulate(with wildshape) tell you that you get it.
You dont get pounce until you Can do the beast shape II simulation for instance.
Cap. Darling wrote: Scott Wilhelm wrote: Devilkiller wrote: For further reading on what you gain while using wildshape check this link: Beast Shape
Druids can be decent grapplers without taking any grapple related feats and great grapplers if they make some feat investments. A lot of grapple builds suffer from a bit of lag where they don't really get their damage output revved up until the second round of grappling when they maintain the grapple. Using Grab as part of an AoO can be nice for this. I guess that delivering Frigid Touch via Bite and grabbing the foe could work too.
I did look at Beast Shape. Beast Shape is a Polymorph spell. And it is in the Polymorph section that I see the Druid gets the animal's attacks.
Are you saying that if a Druid Wildshapes into a creature with Grab, it gets Grab, but if it turns into a creature with Death Roll, it doesn't get Death Roll?
... You get the attacks, yes. But you only get the special attacks and other stuff if the spell you use or simulate(with wildshape) tell you that you get it.
You dont get pounce until you Can do the beast shape II simulation for instance. That's not as cool as I thought it was.
It's a trap. There are cheaper ways to Grapple, Trip, and develop Natural Attacks. If you want to be a melee Druid, you are sacrificing melee capabiility to get utilities. Viable.
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You don't take the Crocodile domain for Death Roll. You take it for some Sneak Attack dice, a familiar, and some spells. Death Roll is a neat bonus you might be able to make some use of, on top of that stuff.
Actually with Beast Shape you only get the special abilities that are called out. If it says you get grab, then you get grab as an example, but if not then you don't. The same applies with the death roll ability.
If you are building around grappling death roll can be nice to have, but if not then I would not bother with it.
With that aside monsters past around CR 10 and better have high CMD's so the ability to affect them with CMB based attacks gets a lot more difficult.
Seranov wrote: You don't take the Crocodile domain for Death Roll. You take it for some Sneak Attack dice, a familiar, and some spells. Death Roll is a neat bonus you might be able to make some use of, on top of that stuff. This. Death roll is a situational ability that can be useful, but it's just a bonus ontop of the familiar snark attack damange and spells.
I'm glad to see that folks agree the Beast Shape spells only give you Ex attacks from the list each spell specifically grants (else what would be the point of those lists?)
For a Druid I'd probably prefer having an animal companion (maybe even a crocodile with Death Roll) to having a familiar, but there are a lot of familiar archetypes around now, some of which might be pretty useful. Getting a valet familiar to help you with teamwork feats might be nice, for instance.
That said, I think the Death Roll ability might be pretty nice in and of itself. If you're focused on grappling then having the ability to knock an opponent prone during your grapple routine is really nice.
Devilkiller wrote: It is technically true that Death Roll doesn't Trip. You won't get to add bonuses from various Trip feats you probably won't have to your CMB check.
But you have the bonus from grapple feats, a +5 because you are already grappling plus half your druid level.
I don't see it as a bad ability, although If I want to make a grappling druid I would multiclass, perhaps tetori.
I was really just addressing LoneKnave's comment that Death Roll doesn't actually add Trip to your Bite or Grapple. As I'd said, it is technically true that the Death Roll attack is not a Trip. Therefore you won't get any bonuses from Trip feats or be able to benefit from stuff like triggering AoOs with Greater Trip (though an ally's Vicious Stomp would work). Conversely, I don't think that Trip specific defense like having many legs would necessarily count against Death Roll. If not that would be quite helpful for getting lots of 4 legged stuff crocodiles like to eat prone.
As long as the Crocodile Domain's Death Roll counts as maintaining the grapple it actually seems like a pretty great ability due to the +1/2 your Druid level on the grapple check which was just mentioned again. If you succeed on that check you effectively get a +4 on subsequent ones due to the enemy being prone. These are pretty big boosts.
Ironically you'd probably be better off using this domain while wildshaped into something else like a hippo behemoth. Being a "crocodile just for style" wouldn't hurt too bad though as King Hippo might seem excessive in terms of Bite damage (12d8 buffed I seem to recall?)
Since we are on the subject: I have always thought that you could take the Strangler feat and get your sneak attack damage added to the Death Roll attack from this domain, but upon more thorough reading I am not too sure.
It depends on if death roll counts as maintaining the grapple. If it does, you are doing damage, and can then use strangler.
the text doe snot mention anything about maintaining a grapple
"If your target does not break the grapple, you get a +5 circumstance bonus on grapple checks made against the same target in subsequent rounds."
So death rolls get that +5.
There's little question that you get a +5. I think you'd get Constrict damage too if applicable. The question is whether the Death Roll granted by the Crocodile Domain counts as maintaining the grapple. This becomes a little less important for a very grapple focused PC who has Greater Grapple and perhaps Rapid Grappler, but not maintaining the grapple with the Death Roll could be a pretty big drawback at lower levels unless maybe you're aiming for a catch and release style of fighting with some AoO fishing. I'd prefer to keep the foe grappled.
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