hi,
im playing in a kingmaker game. and i am known for playing animal companions, especially apes with large Scythe,Tetsubo and Fauchard. but i want to try something different. i have also found out how to get 3 animal companions. i was freaking out i could build a whole team and take on bosses by my self. but i want a ranged gorilla with a gun double hackbut OFC or a composite longbow (adaptive).
1) do you guys think this is viable?
2) what feats would you take and in what order?
3) what stats? 25 point buy or 20 point buy
sacred hunter-13 maybe 12 to put one more in mammoth rider
cavalier-4
mammoth rider-1 maybe 2?
The build: human alternate trait focused study, dangerously curious,
S-1)combat reflexes,skill focus:handle animal swap at level 10 for perception, Scalykind Domain Saurian
C-2)
C-3)combat expertise, pack flanking, order?
S-4)
S-5)parried opportunist, boon companion (my ape)
C-6)
C-7)horse master
S-8) animal focus, skill focus: knowledge-any
S-9) boon companion ( my dino ) bodyguard AC archetype
M-10) horse into a Mammoth or wolf?
S-11) Eldritch heritage: arcane, outflank
S-12)
S-13) improved familiar: fairy dragon ( with lots of wands )
S-14) shake it off auto +4 to all saves
S-15) look out
S-16) skill focus: perception
S-17) BWG, improved spell sharing
M-18) iron will
i put broken wing gambit so late because if you have a A-hole DM he wont use the +2 to hit you i might pass the whole thing and get something else.
Animal companions
He'mek- Ape ranged. will be retraining his first 2 feats at level 4.
1)combat reflexes--swap for point blank shot
2)power attack--swap for precise shot
5)EWP: firearms or composite long bow,
8)rapid shot
10)Many shot
13)improved critical: composite long bow
15)weapon focus? meh
18)snapshot? meh
LEER- horse then huge mammoth/wolf at level 10. Crowed control/tank
1)combat reflexes
2)weapon focus: bite/gore
5)intimidating prowess
8)dazzling display
10)disheartening display
13)--- skill focus: intimidate?
15)---vital strike? armor?
18)---improved vital strike? armor?
trample and sent for tracking
raptor- i have no idea what to do with this one. scout? dps? flanker? stunning fist mantis style?
1)combat reflexes
2)weapon focus: talon
5)IUAS
8)feral combat training
10)stunning fist
13)mantis style
15)ability focus: stunning fist?
^seems stupid hut i cant think of much else
Familiar: fairy dragon. cuz its OP
i just thought i needed a medium sized companion
remember they get all of my team work feats as well.
i think the build will tick people off because i am having a blast killing things. but my turn would be longer. but the boss would be super dead though.
the style
i would be using a reach weapon and in heavy armor. the fairy dragon goes invis and run around buffing EVERYBODY! it dose not attack at all. most of my money would go to wands. i have bane so im fine and flanking to keep my melee viable.
I could make another build with just 2 monkeys. straight scared hunter and all three of us ranged or one ranged monkey and a tank to protect us. but the gorilla would just drop the weapon and claw/claw/bite, if anything came close to us. improved spell sharing; wand of gravity bow, reloading hands,oil of silence, and i am open to suggestions. anything else to make the ranged weapons more deadly? the Apes massive STR will make the bow pass the gun i think. i will pretend we are a roaming circus and i am "the great Soku" people will pay me to bring my animals in the city to watch and pat 10s to feed the raptor. this is so i can get him into the city.
please fell free to swap and add all the 2 copper to fix this build or tell me im doing it wrong. or its too cheesy. am i spreading myself to thin?
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This has been FAQ'd before with regards to ACs using manufactured weapons. They always prefer their natural attacks to weapons, even with intelligence enhancements and feats. This makes the longbow/gun ape a non-starter. I don't have the energy to find the FAQ link at present, but it exists.
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Too cheesy: check
This is something I personally wouldn't want to see at a table I'd be playing at, as it's a party on it's own.
Doing things wrong depends on the GM
1. See this blog for the explanation about animal companions and manufactured weapons.
2. Retraining rules also require GM fiat, especially for animal companions since they are not your character but a class feature.
I highly doubt the Hunter Tactics apply to all companions per RAW.
You only get 1 Animal Companion, the others are a Dinosaur Companion and a Mount.
Too cheesy: check
This is something I personally wouldn't want to see at a table I'd be playing at, as it's a party on it's own.Doing things wrong depends on the GM
1. See this blog for the explanation about animal companions and manufactured weapons.2. Retraining rules also require GM fiat, especially for animal companions since they are not your character but a class feature.
I highly doubt the Hunter Tactics apply to all companions per RAW.
You only get 1 Animal Companion, the others are a Dinosaur Companion and a Mount.
i was thinking about the retraining as well. but i would just get a new companion to replace the one i had with the two lower feats. but the dino is still considered a animal companion. the mount i would understand not getting the TWF's but the dino i believe surly would. would you build this on this order. i could still give him a tetsubo or a scythe and get butterfly sting. i get a high crit weapon and never crit my self but let him go crazy.
You can give your AC any weapon you want. They'll carry if around if they have hands but will not use it. Cheese implies doing something within the letter of the rules, but contrary to the intent. An AC using manufactured weapons is contrary to both.
Copy-pasted from Damanta's link:
"few animals would choose to use an artificial weapon in place of the natural weapons that have served them all their life. It's what they were born with, after all, and virtually no amount of training will change that."
That's a quote from Jason Bulmahn, Lead designer.
You can give your AC any weapon you want. They'll carry if around if they have hands but will not use it. Cheese implies doing something within the letter of the rules, but contrary to the intent. An AC using manufactured weapons is contrary to both.
Copy-pasted from Damanta's link:
"few animals would choose to use an artificial weapon in place of the natural weapons that have served them all their life. It's what they were born with, after all, and virtually no amount of training will change that."
That's a quote from Jason Bulmahn, Lead designer.
but what if i raised it from a baby?
I change these rules for awakened animals, but if it isn't awakened I go by the faq.
Was it born with a scythe in its hands? If no, doesn't change a thing; if yes, I feel sorry for the mother.
no but i raised him to use the scythe in conjunction with his natural attacks. by the faq. he dose say that they can use it "few would choose" i think he would use the scythe because as he grows more intelligent he will see that the only advantage that humans have over nature are tools. he also says " It's what they were born with, after all, and virtually no amount of training will change that." i wont stop him from using his natural attacks.so by his statement they can still use a weapon. its not like they give up their natural attacks.
With 3 animal companions, your turns are all going to take so long that nobody is going to want to play with you, even before you start trying to have Coco the Gorilla attack with a scythe.
lol yeah i thought that would be a issue. i would be having a blast tho. i will go down to Two animal companions and a familiar (buffing only). i can pass on the dino. i have also learned that the pet can learn the ranger "skirmisher" tricks instead of the normal tricks. is this correct?
Why not just go with a Broodmaster Summoner, and end up with eight companions and (almost) as many hands between them as you wish?
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Well, as DM, your character and 3 companions would be considered 4 characters for the purposes of calculating CR. So, a party of 5 players which included yourself, would be doing CR for 8 players. This assumes the rest of the party wasn't also doing things that would need higher CR.
It is my gaming experience that has determined that companions are easily worth a character in terms of CR, with the intention of CR being to measure the level needed to challenge the party, determine experience, and increase loot gains. Experience and loot "shares" for the animals may go discarded, or may be in the form of pet related rewards (like dog food).
I recommend against playing too many characters.
Along with people who are summon-crazy, people who take multiple turns can really kill the fun of the game for everyone else.
If you're really into the concept, see if you can find a GM to run some solo sessions for this build.
Otherwise, be prepared to be (rightfully) judged for taking up four times as much time as anyone else in the session. And that's if you're LUCKY and you're the only guy who pulls this stunt. Otherwise, be prepared for 45 minute rounds and watch the game disintegrate.
...1) do you guys think this is viable?...I think that whether it's legal or not, it's not viable. Other players will run screaming from the table once they realize you take 20 minutes to resolve your turn. GMs will secretly (or not-so-secretly) wish you and your character sheet were buried alive. Choose to restrict yourself to one animal companion, and try to design a character that needs a team... not a character that is a team.
The pets wouldn't take all that long. I always have played with an animal companion and they only get maybe 2-3 attacks. Also I play chaotic neutral, so I don't mind killing party members if they wish to reroll or build onto my Charater. I have played 2 characters that relied on the team and each ended in TPK. I have yet to die with a animal companion at my side. And I have only lost 2 companions over 8 characters. The monkey would take the longest, followed by the raptor or T-Rex, then mammoth. The familiar would just buff as I will be doing as well. The mammoths job is to intimidate and hit with gore and slam simple. I find that this build helps the party to actually take teamwork feats and work as a team more often. Also traveling would by faster on the animals. Instead of a regular horse.
I recommend against playing too many characters.
Along with people who are summon-crazy, people who take multiple turns can really kill the fun of the game for everyone else.
If you're really into the concept, see if you can find a GM to run some solo sessions for this build.
Otherwise, be prepared to be (rightfully) judged for taking up four times as much time as anyone else in the session. And that's if you're LUCKY and you're the only guy who pulls this stunt. Otherwise, be prepared for 45 minute rounds and watch the game disintegrate.
I am the only one who's ever has animal companions. People think they are under powered or weak at the place I play. And the turns wouldn't take that long. The companions can still only attack, no spells, no looking up abilities, no funky stuff. They just hit stuff as a fighter so I don't think the time thing is an issue. But not letting anyone shine might be. My Character would very quickly dominate the game, leaving others to feel not as important if they don't jump on the teamwork feat train. Follow my lead and the boss will die faster. I could also let other party members take control of on one the companions in combat. I wouldn't mind letting He'Mek be a body guard for the caster because he would be at range as well. So letting the caster control him wouldn't be a bad idea that way he can have some melee fun too.
To be honest I didn't expect so much hate over this build. I thought everyone would praise it for being very powerful. Of at least recommend it for zenith games. That was really what I wanted. All of my builds revolve around animal companions. I know almost every trick to get one and to make it stronger. I am a team player but I like to have a pack that I know is loyal. I like tribal characters with primal bond with nature. I don't like Druids tho lol. I guess I can't please everyone I guess.
Well, as DM, your character and 3 companions would be considered 4 characters for the purposes of calculating CR. So, a party of 5 players which included yourself, would be doing CR for 8 players. This assumes the rest of the party wasn't also doing things that would need higher CR.
It is my gaming experience that has determined that companions are easily worth a character in terms of CR, with the intention of CR being to measure the level needed to challenge the party, determine experience, and increase loot gains. Experience and loot "shares" for the animals may go discarded, or may be in the form of pet related rewards (like dog food).
Not in any game I have been playing in. DM's don't consider them powerful at all. And maybe 1/2 or 1/3 a Character. Simply because they don't have as many options as a character or items magical or mundane. So them being counted towards CR is very questionable. Not to mention the sheer amount of money I would have to cough up just too keep them relevant. This is a major issue with all of the animal companion classes. Not to mention getting a Dino into town. But playing as a circus will help that dramatically. And I don't see any DM not understanding that. So increasing CR not in my opinion.
I think you're missing the point. It's about you AND the other people at the table. They and their characters matter. We had a similar issue and the whole campaign unraveled. As a DM/GM, I would not allow this build.
Also I play chaotic neutral, so I don't mind killing party members ...That explains everything :-)
:-) yeah they learned that the hard way. Tried to kill my roc companion, then lied as my character woke up about it. The rogue was full attacked by the companion taken into the sky and dropped from 160' bet you won't try to take my items again. Then try to bluff your way out. These are the types of players I deal with. They argue over loot ALL DAY. Me and one other Character playing an oracle sat there for 20 min listening to them argue over a weapon NONE OF THEM COULD USE. And some other stuff that wasn't important. So we did the mission on our own to rescue the little boy. Maybe I need to be at a different table. My character will only kill only member if hey try to steal from me as these people often do or insult the animal they animal understands a few languages. Or the familiar will tell the companion. He gets mad then the whole crew mad. They are the elite 4.
I think you're missing the point. It's about you AND the other people at the table. They and their characters matter. We had a similar issue and the whole campaign unraveled. As a DM/GM, I would not allow this build.
With a druid pack master or ranger? Those classes are vastly under powered. You have to do to much splitting and 3 companions fall off at level 5, 2. Fall off at level 9. Maybe the player wasn't skilled enough to know how to make the Character fun. Or benefit the team. Put the fighter on the mammoth so he can full attack, or have a mount that will rise in power as he levels, instead of a regular horse that will die in one hit. So he can go mounted combat. ape by the caster for protection, the raptor for flanking/ scouting with the rogue. fairy dragon buffing team. You can still have fun with every build. I think is all about how you role play it. I can get Holstering armor to put them away when they are not needed. I do understand your point. We will just have to agree to disagree. I think it adds a nice touch to the game. You would be a complete support Character.
You can’t have an ape with guns….but you can have a medium sized monkey with guns. This is because of the new stuff from Familiar Folio
First, there is the Eldritch guardian fighter, which trades out the first two bonus feats for a familiar that can share in your combat feats as long as it can hear/see? you. (it also expands the bravery ability to apply to saves on mind affecting effects)
Next, there is the mauler archetype for familiars. This lets you bring your familiar up to medium size, as well as give it a variety of strength bonuses.
Combined, these options let you have a medium sized monkey man that can shoot just as many bullets as you can.
You can’t have an ape with guns….but you can have a medium sized monkey with guns. This is because of the new stuff from Familiar Folio
First, there is the Eldritch guardian fighter, which trades out the first two bonus feats for a familiar that can share in your combat feats as long as it can hear/see? you. (it also expands the bravery ability to apply to saves on mind affecting effects)
Next, there is the mauler archetype for familiars. This lets you bring your familiar up to medium size, as well as give it a variety of strength bonuses.
Combined, these options let you have a medium sized monkey man that can shoot just as many bullets as you can.
This is not PFS. Why can he not have guns? I can easily fix the lower level 1 and 2 with the Eye for an eye trait with human. But I don't like guns on my companions. We had a ballista on the back of my huge rhino before. But no guns.
But I will look in to this medium sized familiar you speak of.
Is this a legal book from paizo and not a third party. I don't like third party nor do any people I play with. If it isn't directly from the team I don't know any DM that will allow it.
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This is not PFS. Why can he not have guns? I can easily fix the lower level 1 and 2 with the Eye for an eye trait with human. But I don't like guns on my companions. We had a ballista on the back of my huge rhino before. But no guns.
But I will look in to this medium sized familiar you speak of.
Is this a legal book from paizo and not a third party. I don't like third party nor do any people I play with. If it isn't directly from the team I don't know any DM that will allow it.
Pathfinder Player Companion: Familiar Folio
I haven’t check out whether it is PFS legal yet (or how much of it is PFS legal), but yeah, it is from Paizo.
Anyway, I just generally try to stick with general RAW rules. A home game can have any rules it wants. I just try to stick with the text since it is a shared point with everyone on the advice forum.
I've had multiple animal companions before, but the way that I've done it such that it doesn't wig out the party is that they're the same kind of animal and they take redundant actions, that way it doesn't take a ton of time to play them. Also I limit myself to taking only two companions at a time for two reasons, because each individual companion will be stronger that way (less spread on levels/boon companion needs) and because it takes substantially less time. If you want to play with more than one companion, for the love of god do not play three wildly different to play companions.
I've had multiple animal companions before, but the way that I've done it such that it doesn't wig out the party is that they're the same kind of animal and they take redundant actions, that way it doesn't take a ton of time to play them. Also I limit myself to taking only two companions at a time for two reasons, because each individual companion will be stronger that way (less spread on levels/boon companion needs) and because it takes substantially less time. If you want to play with more than one companion, for the love of god do not play three wildly different to play companions.
Yeah I was going to play with 2 apes and a Dino. Give one spirited charge and the other vital strike and just have the Dino intimidate. I just like to have a good time.
'Not-so-secretly' it is, then!I think that whether it's legal or not, it's not viable. Other players will run screaming from the table once they realize you take 20 minutes to resolve your turn. GMs will secretly (or not-so-secretly) wish you and your character sheet were buried alive...The pets wouldn't take all that long... Also I play chaotic neutral, so I don't mind killing party members if they wish to reroll or build onto my character...
I am a inquisitor after all. But my party thinks I'm a druid withs levels of cavalier.
I've had multiple animal companions before, but the way that I've done it such that it doesn't wig out the party is that they're the same kind of animal and they take redundant actions, that way it doesn't take a ton of time to play them. Also I limit myself to taking only two companions at a time for two reasons, because each individual companion will be stronger that way (less spread on levels/boon companion needs) and because it takes substantially less time. If you want to play with more than one companion, for the love of god do not play three wildly different to play companions.
so 2 apes with the human eye for an eye trait and guns!! nah jk i was thinking tesubo and a scythe ape while i use a high crit weapon and butterfly sting.
Play a Vanaras and go ape with it. :-)
You can be that ape with a gun.
Get a wand of Mad Monkeys, or cast the spell.
Use handle animal to train some monkeys.
/cevah
