| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
When Paizo released its Rise of the Runelords anniversary edition in a wonderful hardcover version, they got many of their fans dreaming of another similar projects. The topic has come up a few times on these boards, as in this thread, and it turns out that Curse of the Crimson Throne is one of the favorites for such a make-over.
Understanding that we are speaking purely hypothetically, if such a conversion was ever made, which changes would you like to see to the adventure path apart from a 3.5 to Pathfinder Roleplaying Game rules update?
- Are there any NPCs you would give another (newer) class?
- Is there any artwork you would like to see replaced or made?
- Are there any story elements, NPCs, locations ... you would like to see changed or added?
- Are there other things you would like to see?
Well, Vencarlo would definitely make for a good swashbuckler if we get a hardcover version.
Also, would LOVE to see more artwork of Cressida Kroft, Trinia Sabor, and of course, Miss Laori Vaus. :)
That's what I'd like to see off the top of my head... there's probably more.
A lot of the NPCs should be updated to fit ACG and APG equivalents if they made a hardcover if they want to make it compatible with the current pathfinder material.
I like a lot of my own personal conversions but I'm sure that Paizo already has in mind what they would do with the classes if they could expose CotCT to a remake.
In Book 6, make Castle Korvosa a place with defenses even high-level characters have o respect -- what have generations of royal wizards been doing, after all?
| 4 people marked this as a favorite. |
I have a feeling this is never going to happen, and, in my opinion, Curse of the Crimson Throne doesn't really need it. If they are going to re-release an Adventure Path, I'd much rather it be one that seriously needs a revisit. Second Darkness would be my vote. That AP screams of unfulfilled potential. I can't know this, but I'd bet that is one Mr Jacobs would love a second shot at (no pun intended)--especially considering how much he likes his elves.
All of that said, there are some changes I would like to see for the sake of future GMs (I've resolved these my own way the times I've run it, and I need to find a whole new gaming group for a chance to run it yet again). As usual, I only speak in giant text blocks! The changes I would like to see are:
--Expand the "prologue" part of Book 1. I already recommend this to every person that comes on these boards asking what they should do when they run this game. The party needs a chance to "meet" Eodred's Korvosa.
--Clean up Book 3. Seriously, I love me some Arkonas, and I've had an absolute BLAST running this module, but I feel as though it is in SPITE of the book itself. The whole Emperor of Old Korvosa part is not organized very well. Unless your entire party is constituted of sneaky gits or masters of disguise, and they can bestow all of that to Laori, there is only one way to get to the Emperor. I admit, it has been a few years since I read it, but I remember a lot of space dedicated to how they get to Pilts. May as well save some time and write up every location as if the place is on full alert, because that is almost certainly going to be the outcome. Additionally, the entire Palace Arkona is tediously mapped out and then populated by challenges that should be VERY difficult for a party of appropriate level when taken as a whole. I suppose in 3.5 they give you the silver bullet in Glorio's vault (if you can get there first and know enough about my favorite fiend), but that rule didn't make it to PFRPG. I'm completely fine with leaving Glorio around for Book 6 myself, but when you do the party isn't getting enough loot to keep up with WBL. I don't want to sound all negative here, so let me add in that the Vivified Labyrinth is fantastic, and maybe a sidebar on how to run this somewhat complicated area at the table would be welcome. They can copy/paste my post on it. I'm not trying to brag or anything, but kinda...
--Rewrite Book 4. As a Shaonti sourcebook, it is an overwhelming success. As an adventure, it is not so much. The mega-railroad was so bad they added a sidebar in the original printing (at least, I think I remember that). The Sial intro is also weak, and it does not set up a future alliance very well. As written Cinnabar (sp?) has as much impact on the story as Darth Maul in Star Wars--show up for a fight and die. At least the book gives the GM tools to foreshadow the Cinderlander, or else that would be yet another Paizo character that gets a thousand words of background that the characters will never know or care anything about. I think this book is salvageable, but it requires a lot of massaging to make it work. I have heavily converted this book in my games, while attempting to keep the spirit of it intact... which has resulted in all of Book 4 being converted into half of an adventure and the journey to get to it taking greater prominence as the first half.
--Expand the Rebellion. Book 6 dedicated a lot of print to Castle Korvosa, and, while it is a very neat location, the cost of that was a very condensed set of encounters that involve the PCs breaking the chains of Ileosa's rule. The Grey Maiden prisoners get saved off screen? The blooding is a footnote? Old Korvosa is still quarantined and NOBODY CARES? I realize that last one is dependent upon the PCs' actions in Book 3, so the little sidebar they give us is understandable.
As for what NPC ends up as what class? I'm not that picky. There's a couple obvious ones like Vencarlo the Swashbuckler, Devaulus the Alchemist, and Cinderlander the Hunter, but, ultimately, these sort of things don't impact the story or its telling that much. All I ask is that they don't give seemingly every villain levels of Monk and/or Rogue... or at least don't consider that the same CR adjustment as some other classes with abilities that really show up in a 4 round bout.
Just a few thoughts.
I probably would have not written the party out of Korvosa for two entire modules, but that would be rewriting the second half of the AP entirely, which of course can't be expected.
More involvement in setting up a rebellion in the city would have been nice. Could be that we are getting this with the upcoming Cheliax AP, though.
I'd love to see book 4 made more sandboxy instead of the chain-of-deals style presented in the original AP.
Are there any story elements, NPCs, locations ... you would like to see changed or added?
I'll have to keep this in mind when I eventually run that adventure.
The standard Paizo AP includes a mix of urban, wilderness, and dungeon crawl.
No doubt.
I think this sticking to the script is what sort of soured the story for some. Me included. I think a lot of us read the first 3 books and sold to ourselves that this is an entirely Urban AP. Part of our disappointment is due to our own expectations being let down when we should have known better.
I know I got hyped after the first 3 books and expected to run a civil war and resistance movement in Korvosa, but instead I got Dances With Wolves crossed with Frank Herbert's Dune.
I love reading the notes James Jacobs leaves in APs. The most exciting ones usually end with a "but that's outside the scope of this adventure." So besides more prologue, I think adding an appendix of these optional story elements and hooks throughout the game would be a nice touch.
I know that I personally added more urban elements to my CotCT games. I expand the first module a LOT, the second module quite a bit, and the third module a little. I also do some urban adventuring in Kaer Maga, which is a fun contrast since they aren't famous, local, plague-curing heroes there. I then expand upon the first part of book 6 a lot.
So while it still ends up being 1 3/4 worth of books outside of Korvosa, I expand enough to make it less than 20% of the campaign.
Obviously, this is a bit of an undertaking, and not supported by the books as written.
I probably would have not written the party out of Korvosa for two entire modules, but that would be rewriting the second half of the AP entirely, which of course can't be expected.
The standard Paizo AP includes a mix of urban, wilderness, and dungeon crawl. There are some exceptions, but that's the default. In design terms, an AP that never left the city would favor certain classes over others (rogues over druids, say) and there'd be whole categories of spells and feats that would never become relevant. Also, while some of us love the mean streets of the city, six straight modules of urban adventure might get a bit wearisome. (See, e.g., the near universal agreement that while hexagon-based exploration of wilderness in the first installment of Kingmaker was awesome, by the fourth it had become pretty tedious.)
Also, in this particular case, the PCs spent two modules and 5-6 levels outside the city getting better, smarter and stronger so that they can come back and lead the revolution against the Queen. That makes thematic sense, and I don't have a problem with it.
Eh, Pathfinder AP's have taken a lot of chances lately with their setting, so I think that they could break with those thematics you mention in the future. Of course that doesn't really bear out for a reprint of CotCT.
Knick: From the standpoint of which AP needs a revision in the form of a hardback, I agree with you, Second Darkness would probably top that list. However if going from a business standpoint, and which AP would make them the most money, I think Curse is the clear winner there. It is highly regarded as one of the most loved APs, constantly making most peoples top 5 AP list (if not number 1), and would probably have the highest number of sales (definitely higher than Second Darkness IMO). Add in the fact it is mostly unavailable and out of print is another point in its favor.
From a personal standpoint, I would absolutely buy a Curse hardback, whereas I would probably pass on a SD one.
I actually think Kingmaker might make a bigger buck than CotCT. It's Sandbox nature is almost legendary it seems amongst PF players of APs.
Of course Kingmaker IS already PF (as many have pointed out endless times)...and CotCT is NOT.
I would buy KM as a hardback far sooner than CotCT though (probably a LOT of that has to do with the fact that I already have CotCT AP though).
The other annoyance is when the shaman that has been traveling with leans over(after all the hoop jumping) as says, 'BTW, if they decide against helping us. They will kill us all.' That kind of ranks up with the ambush in SD>
If it ever does happen, here's hoping for a matching set of pawns.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
I think a hardback CotCT would be awesome for those who haven't enjoyed what is one of the best AP's ever. Converting/modifying this was a labor of love for me and that's probably why I wouldn't make the purchase. I took the awesomeness in the six volumes as written and turned it into something really special and memorable for my players and I. I don't think everything would have turned out near as well if I'd had it all done for me.
[list]Are there any NPCs you would give another (newer) class?
In addition to redoing Vencarlo as a Swashbuckler, I think Laori would work better as an Inquisitor (which is what I'm rebuilding her as). There's probably a good argument for different options for Ileosa, starting with just picking a Bard archetype (Court Bard?) for her rather than the basic default, Draconic-bloodline Sorcerer, Dragon Disciple, and other things. Probably some others as well.
Is there any artwork you would like to see replaced or made?
What was already said - more of Cressida, Vencarlo/Blackjack, Sabina, Grau, Laori, maybe a couple others.
Are there any story elements, NPCs, locations ... you would like to see changed or added?
I could get behind a more sandboxy, less "chain of miniquests" and "but thou must"s method of doing Chapter 4. Granted, I personally am completely removing it and replacing it with something else, but I can't really expect that of Paizo themselves, especially as there are several people who like that chapter. =)
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
I would love to see a updated hard cover of this CotCT, as I feel this AP is very much deserving of it. The fact that it is sold out and still very highly rated, and not yet converted to PF (as many have pointed out) makes it a clear winner here.
The chance to fix/clean up the issue's whatever they may be, and a chance to take the many years of players/DM feedback into account could make this one of there best sellers. I can honestly see some purchasing it to revisit or to see what might have been updated. I for one would certainly buy it!
I agree with pretty much everything Knick says above. I don't think there's a compelling need to meet Eodred's Korvosa, but you do need to make sure the PCs are rooted in the city before they set out to save it.
My experience with Book 3 was identical -- there's all sorts of good stuff in there, but as written, it's a mess. The DM is left doing a lot of spadework, and the Arkonas' palace in particular can be lethal if the DM is playing with gloves off.
(Book 2, let's note, is pretty close to perfect. Up until then, it was hands down the single best module Paizo had produced, and it's probably still in the top five. It requires very little effort to make this a creepy, challenging, and truly memorable experience.)
Book 4, Knick nails it -- it's a fantastic sourcebook for the Shoanti and the Cinderlands. As an adventure, it's a kind of annoying railroad where you march from quest to quest collecting plot tickets. There are some cool bits -- the initiation ritual, the Havero, aving to jump into a giant worm's throat at the end. But a lot of PCs will chafe at the unfortunately obvious railroadiness of it all.
Many, many people have already pointed out that Cinnabar is an NPC with a cool backstory that eats up a page of text and *impacts the plot in no way whatsoever*. Something should be done about that. Have her show up earlier on, at least. Also, spend more time with the Shoanti, because the Shoanti are interesting.
Doug M.
This was my experience exactly - Book 3, the Arkona mansion would have been a TPK in Pathfinder if my PCs had fought them, although luckily they had no reason to do so and it was clear from Vimanda that facing Glorio would be suicide.
Book 4 is a terrible railroad, my campaign avoided it entirely since IMC the PCs made friends with the Brotherhood of Bones in bk 3, and thus found out Serithtiel's location from them, avoiding the whole Shoanti fandango. Which was ok but made Bk 3 a waste of money, it boiled down to a single lopsided fight where the PCs ambushed pursuing party of Cinnabar/Cinderlander/Gray Maidens, in turn ambushed by a Red Mantis & gargoyles, but cleaning them all out pretty handily.I think if CotCT is rereleased, Bk 3 needs editing, Bk 4 needs to be changed completely, much more open, and with much stronger hooks, eg the Shoanti could be gathering to sack Harse.
I ran CotCT in its entirety, and I don't regret the investment of time (2 1/2 years!). But in the final analysis, it is an uneven, even scattered, AP, and I don't think adapting it to PFRPG rules will fix that.
I don't think anyone has talked about Book 5 yet. Along with Book 2, it stood out for me as an atmospheric, well-structured adventure -- but its placement in the AP made it feel like a numbing parade of nearly unbeatable horrors. I believe the phrase is "campaign fatigue"?
So, at the risk of derailing the OP's question, I'd go out on a limb and suggest that Paizo could please a lot of fans by adapting Books 2 and 5 into standalone adventures. This might involve borrowing a bit of introductory material from previous chapters, or crafting a new set of hooks (and outcomes). But the results would be far more flexible, and I suspect they'd reach more players intact.
In a perfect world, Crimson Throne would be updated to PF rules and cleaned up and revised from top to bottom. As many have pointed out, it's a solid AP teeming with atmosphere and truly memorable moments and characters, but it is at times very disjointed.
I'm currently running a game that is a combination of CotCT and my own adventure design. The AP is a gold mine as far as good concepts and frameworks. Combining it with original content and trimming out the obvious weak points (such as the chapter 4 railroad) has worked pretty well for me so far.
Also, am I the only one who immediately came to the conclusion that Warpriest is a perfect fit for Laori?
Warpriest could work very well for her, yeah. In general there are a ton of NPCs where I see the new and not-so-new-anymore PF classes fitting into a rewrite here, far more than with RotR.
The plague doctors as alchemists, Shoanti bloodragers and shamans in book 4, Blackjack as a swashbuckler, Sabina (and maybe other Gray Maidens as well) as a cavalier, etc.