Goblin Squad Member
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Right now in the game as it is what specific actions are considered by GW to be greifing? To be clear I don't mean a general description of greifing behavior. I mean specific actions that a player can do in game right now that they should not do.
Yes. This.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Right now in the game as it is what specific actions are considered by GW to be greifing? To be clear I don't mean a general description of greifing behavior. I mean specific actions that a player can do in game right now that they should not do.
I personally would not respawn camp someone unless they are a feud or war target, or they have shown they are posing a consistent threat to a tower we hold.
This is especially true if they express that they are trying to vacate the area, or I can see that they are trying to.
This captures my concept of mercy
if you try to take what you have left behind, that is a NO NO, your loot belongs to me!!
Goblinworks Executive Founder
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Right now in the game as it is what specific actions are considered by GW to be greifing? To be clear I don't mean a general description of greifing behavior. I mean specific actions that a player can do in game right now that they should not do.
There specifically will not ever be a bright line given with the effect "This behavior is just barely not greifing."
Generally, I would say that you are safe so long as you are getting something valuable to you other than observing the suffering of another player.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I personally would not respawn camp someone unless they are a feud or war target, or they have shown they are posing a consistent threat to a tower we hold.
This is especially true if they express that they are trying to vacate the area, or I can see that they are trying to.
if you try to take what you have left behind, that is a NO NO, your loot belongs to me!!
Basically this, except I'm not sure I would spawncamp somebody only because they are a feud or war target.
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Goblin Squad Member
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That is really for GW to clarify.
In a very general sense griefing in any game is regarded as behavior intended to deliberately upset the real person at the other end.
How that cashes out in terms of exactly what sort of in-game behavior is regarded as griefing varies from game to game.
Some games are also more tolerant than others in terms of of what sort of "role play" excuses are acceptable for what would otherwise be griefing behavior.
The line also gets fuzzy when a dispute between two in-game characters becomes intermingles with a personality conflict between the players of those characters. Especially since some players have a lot of trouble isolating in-game conflicts and their in-game personality from their real world feelings, personality and issues.
To make matters worse their are also internet layers" who muddy the waters with all sorts of quasi-legal interpretations of EULAs and rules.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Basically this, except I'm not sure I would spawncamp somebody only because they are a feud or war target.I personally would not respawn camp someone unless they are a feud or war target, or they have shown they are posing a consistent threat to a tower we hold.
This is especially true if they express that they are trying to vacate the area, or I can see that they are trying to.
if you try to take what you have left behind, that is a NO NO, your loot belongs to me!!
Spawn camping a feud or war target is one way of keeping them off the battlefield. All is fare in warfare!! You can not grief a war target, especially one who is on the side that started the war.
Yeah I think "safe so long as you are getting something valuable besides watching the other player's suffering" about sums it up. Spawn camping is a legitimate tactic in the right circumstances. Moreover, players have to have the latitude to play the game or we will loose much of the "Meaningful Human Interaction" aspect of it - and not all meaningful human interactions are intended to be positive.
But yeah, someone spawn camping another player or following them around and harassing them with no other purpose than to piss the other person off is a good start point for griefing in my book.
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Goblin Squad Member
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To be clear I don't mean a general description of greifing behavior. I mean specific actions...
Goblinworks intentionally avoids listing specific actions, precisely because griefing is not about the action, it's about the intent, and intent is only something that another human being can judge (imperfectly). Goblinworks has promised to be "arbitrary and capricious" about it, so it's best to steer well clear of "the line".
On the subject of Spawn Camping, I will say that holding the position around the Attackers' Shrine during a Tower battle is good strategy, and the Attackers do not deserve, and probably should not be given, a free rally point to consolidate their forces for another push at the Tower - especially with the current difficulty in defending a Tower.
Spawn Camping their shrine after the battle is over, while they're trying to leave the area, is pretty bad, though.
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Goblin Squad Member
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That is really for GW to clarify.
It is absolutely not for them to clarify. While grief is a personal thing, what we-the-community will consider acceptable behaviour is one of the few kinds of crowdforging over which Goblinworks has zero control or authority. They will decide what they are prepared to investigate, but we will decide what we are prepared to accept ourselves. And I'd guess the exact level will vary from settlement to settlement, but the conversation is for us, not Goblinworks.
Is griefing even a thing yet?
I gather resources in hexes, I buy stuff at A.H.s, I bank, I transport stuff, I PvE solo, I PvE Escalations with multiple parties, I PvP.
I haven't run into a single griefer in my travels.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Yes - the intent and how it is done
Spawn camping to destroy the armour of the opponent versus spwan camping to ensure characters don't go back into the tower but are free to leave in the opposite direction are two worlds apart.
what about spawn camping to make sure you got all their loot?
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Squeaky wheel gets the grief!
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Goblin Squad Member
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Yes - the intent and how it is done
Spawn camping to destroy the armour of the opponent versus spwan camping to ensure characters don't go back into the tower but are free to leave in the opposite direction are two worlds apart.
Once a group starts trying to capture a Tower, all bets are off. There will be tactical decisions related to whether and for how long we chase them after they respawn, but "being nice" isn't the motivating factor. There are far too many groups out there who will exploit their enemies "being nice" for every last drop of advantage, and we're not interested in playing the sap. If you're not prepared to fight an all-out battle and bear the costs of losing everything on you, then you probably shouldn't be trying to take away a Tower held by folks who take this game seriously.
There are a lot of mechanics that just aren't working yet - welcome to Early Enrollment. If you're worried that the current state of the system makes it far too likely that you'll lose everything when you try to take a Tower - because you can't select your respawn point, etc. - again, I recommend you avoid trying to take Towers from anyone who takes this game seriously.
The Seventh Veil, and our Settlement Phaeros, takes this game seriously. We generally don't start aggressions, but we're quite willing to stand our ground and strike back twice as hard if provoked.
For the folks out west who see a Tower held by Phaeros, don't sweat taking it. We have no intention of trying to hold those, and they were largely acquired in the heat of the moment on the first day of the War of Towers.
Anyone who takes a Tower held by Phaeros, or any other Everbloom Alliance member, in the southeast should expect... repercussions. We're friendly and helpful, but we're not going to roll over.
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Goblin Squad Member
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what about spawn camping to make sure you got all their loot?Yes - the intent and how it is done
Spawn camping to destroy the armour of the opponent versus spwan camping to ensure characters don't go back into the tower but are free to leave in the opposite direction are two worlds apart.
???
When a character is killed, they drop a husk that contains (roughly) 75% of what they have in inventory. The rest is destroyed, lost.
If someone attacks that character again, to make sure they got all of the loot, they'll be sorely disappointed.
(Damn, Jed, we've killed this noob 5 times and gotten nothing. RNG hates us, I think.)
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Goblin Squad Member
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???
When a character is killed, they drop a husk that contains (roughly) 75% of what they have in inventory. The rest is destroyed, lost.
If someone attacks that character again, to make sure they got all of the loot, they'll be sorely disappointed.
(Damn, Jed, we've killed this noob 5 times and gotten nothing. RNG hates us, I think.)
I think they mean to keep the loser from recovering it for themselves, because the killer takes much longer to harvest the husk than the player does.
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Goblin Squad Member
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On the subject of Spawn Camping, I will say that holding the position around the Attackers' Shrine during a Tower battle is good strategy, and the Attackers do not deserve, and probably should not be given, a free rally point to consolidate their forces for another push at the Tower - especially with the current difficulty in defending a Tower.
To add to this, the game really isn't developed enough to have griefing in some respects. Right now, spawn camping is a great strategy for locking down an attacker, and you can't blame anybody for using the best strategy available. So for now, there's not much outside of being rude, offensive and/or obnoxious in chat that could reasonably get you punished.
If GW doesn't want every fight turning into "AoE fest at the enemy spawn point" they would be wise to getting a better respawn system ASAP.
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Goblinworks Executive Founder
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Yes - the intent and how it is done
Spawn camping to destroy the armour of the opponent versus spwan camping to ensure characters don't go back into the tower but are free to leave in the opposite direction are two worlds apart.
In the current iteration, those are both part of the same tactic of defending the tower. I would prefer that camping the spawn to destroy the attackers' equipment be made a non-viable tactic.
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Goblinworks Executive Founder
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Is griefing even a thing yet?
I gather resources in hexes, I buy stuff at A.H.s, I bank, I transport stuff, I PvE solo, I PvE Escalations with multiple parties, I PvP.
I haven't run into a single griefer in my travels.
I haven't heard any reports that I would classify as griefing. I can imagine what such a report would look like.
It would be awesome if those reports never needed to exist.
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Goblin Squad Member
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In the current iteration, those are both part of the same tactic of defending the tower. I would prefer that camping the spawn to destroy the attackers' equipment be made a non-viable tactic.Yes - the intent and how it is done
Spawn camping to destroy the armour of the opponent versus spwan camping to ensure characters don't go back into the tower but are free to leave in the opposite direction are two worlds apart.
Like making it so you don't receive a hit to durability if attacked within one minute of respawn?
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I wonder if dropping everything that wasn't destoryed creates too much of an incentive for griefing scenarios and camping.
Perhaps destroy 25%, drop 50%, and keep 25%. (Maybe swap the keep and drop) This makes it a more interesting choice now, do you risk recovering what you have dropped or is it good enough to run with what you have left? If you keep going back you keep dropping more but at a reduced rate compared to that first death, somewhat mitigating your desperation but now you are strongly encourage to bail after the first (or first few deaths).
With the surviving 75% inventory drop you have a very big incentive to try and get it back, which leads to potential frustrating and griefing like behaviors as you keep dying or comically killing each other and trying to collect the husks. Some food for thought.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Spawn camping a feud or war target is one way of keeping them off the battlefield. All is fare in warfare!! You can not grief a war target, especially one who is on the side that started the war.Basically this, except I'm not sure I would spawncamp somebody only because they are a feud or war target.I personally would not respawn camp someone unless they are a feud or war target, or they have shown they are posing a consistent threat to a tower we hold.
This is especially true if they express that they are trying to vacate the area, or I can see that they are trying to.
if you try to take what you have left behind, that is a NO NO, your loot belongs to me!!
That's why I said "I'm not sure." =)
We will see what makes sense to me when it happens... I don't have any experience with PvP like this.
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Goblin Squad Member
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If the risk/reward ratio of losing 100% of your non-threaded stuff is too high a risk for too many people, then perhaps Goblinworks will decide to revisit. At the moment, the numbers have been unchanged for months, and the programmers have lots of work to do. Asking them to change the code to allow some percentage of your unequipped stuff to travel with your body is a feature change that I don't think deserves a high priority.
(Edit: maybe one day the bags-of-holding will be threadable and you can pick what's in them, but as I said above, that is for a distant future.)
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Goblin Squad Member
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To be honest, considering how far it will be back to your husk with the games doing things like respawning you at the bottom of a mountain range you died on top of with no pass up within 4 hexes, I can see myself ignoring the husk and just getting on with business and abandoning the husk more often than not.
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Goblin Squad Member
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A preview of PVP in the post-patch future:
You are out farming mobs or harvesting, obviously with several friends nearby. The puller takes the next mob group, then dies rather quickly. Perhaps you have overestimated this group's strength? No, you were certain only two purples existed and neither are mages.
Meanwhile, a Longbow-wielding Daredevil in Archer armor with MoO: Suffer and Stop enters Stealth once again and retreats to a safe distance, hopefully not having been noticed while the rest of your group was handling the camp mobs.
After a number of suspiciously unsuccessful pulls, you realize what's happening and advance the Logs agenda on the crowdforging site.
Anyone, anywhere, anytime; you can and will die to assassins, but will you even notice?
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Goblin Squad Member
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A preview of PVP in the post-patch future:
You are out farming mobs or harvesting, obviously with several friends nearby. The puller takes the next mob group, then dies rather quickly. Perhaps you have overestimated this group's strength? No, you were certain only two purples existed and neither are mages.
Meanwhile, a Longbow-wielding Daredevil in Archer armor with MoO: Suffer and Stop enters Stealth once again and retreats to a safe distance, hopefully not having been noticed while the rest of your group was handling the camp mobs.
After a number of suspiciously unsuccessful pulls, you realize what's happening and advance the Logs agenda on the crowdforging site.
Anyone, anywhere, anytime; you can and will die to assassins, but will you even notice?
Unless they have been specifically hired to kill that person or are defending territory, why would anyone play the game like that? Just to make other players miserable? Why would anyone play a game just to make other people have less fun?
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Goblin Squad Member
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Unless they have been specifically hired to kill that person or are defending territory, why would anyone play the game like that? Just to make other players miserable? Why would anyone play a game just to make other people have less fun?
Denial of resources is as important as securing them for your own group. Every minute you spend not farming materials is a minute my group could be building an advantage over you for a future war. Your death directly benefits every group that considers you the smallest threat, even if it is only just by instilling a little bit of fear in your friends so they farm less efficiently.
Also because yes, some people are just dicks like that.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Unless they have been specifically hired to kill that person or are defending territory, why would anyone play the game like that? Just to make other players miserable? Why would anyone play a game just to make other people have less fun?
Denial of resources is as important as securing them for your own group. Every minute you spend not farming materials is a minute my group could be building an advantage over you for a future war. Your death directly benefits every group that considers you the smallest threat, even if it is only just by instilling a little bit of fear in your friends so they farm less efficiently.
Also because yes, some people are just dicks like that.
Pretty much. This is exactly how PVP works in Dota 2 or any other moba. Some players spend their time farming, some spend their time denying, and some just lurk nearby taking shots at you to disrupt your tempo. There are many ways to play and the outcome shows its effectiveness. These are core concepts of any resource-based game that MOBAs simply stuff into a one hour time slot.
Translated to Pathfinder, there are good reasons to murder unsuspecting people even if you aren't aiming to get loot.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Unless they have been specifically hired to kill that person or are defending territory, why would anyone play the game like that? Just to make other players miserable? Why would anyone play a game just to make other people have less fun?
EVE sort of works that way.
The majority of logged characters at any time are involved in mining trade industry and PvE missioning and exploring. PvP characters tend to either belong to "Weekend Warriors" who are only logging on one or two days a week or are the mains of players who actually spend most of their time in a hisec/renter alt grinding ISK.
In EVE a sensible player will take some precautions to protect their ISK making alt character but generally will also regard a PvP loss as part of the running costs of the hauling/mining/etc operation.
Despite the fact many players have both PvP and PvE/industry characters this actually creates quite a disparity between the two groups. Dedicated PvE players see gaining ISK as the real challenge and could not care less abut killmails. Dedicated PvP players see high value killmails as their goal and could not care less about ISK.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Unless they have been specifically hired to kill that person or are defending territory, why would anyone play the game like that? Just to make other players miserable? Why would anyone play a game just to make other people have less fun?
EVE sort of works that way.
The majority of logged characters at any time are involved in mining trade industry and PvE missioning and exploring. PvP characters tend to either belong to "Weekend Warriors" who are only logging on one or two days a week or are the mains of players who actually spend most of their time in a hisec/renter alt grinding ISK.
In EVE a sensible player will take some precautions to protect their ISK making alt character but generally will also regard a PvP loss as part of the running costs of the hauling/mining/etc operation.
Despite the fact many players have both PvP and PvE/industry characters this actually creates quite a disparity between the two groups. Dedicated PvE players see gaining ISK as the real challenge and could not care less abut killmails. Dedicated PvP players see high value killmails as their goal and could not care less about ISK.
Actually you forgot the top pvp players who roam and gank anyone anywhere from petty ransoming to stealing POS's and capitals in WH space. These players care about money for the best of kit and killmails for prestige.....and also the tears cannot forget the tears. Infact many provide a complimentary survey for victims to fill out an item of wich is how many tears quiet sobs, rage quits, buckets or an ocean for loosing a super cap.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Unless they have been specifically hired to kill that person or are defending territory, why would anyone play the game like that? Just to make other players miserable? Why would anyone play a game just to make other people have less fun?A preview of PVP in the post-patch future:
You are out farming mobs or harvesting, obviously with several friends nearby. The puller takes the next mob group, then dies rather quickly. Perhaps you have overestimated this group's strength? No, you were certain only two purples existed and neither are mages.
Meanwhile, a Longbow-wielding Daredevil in Archer armor with MoO: Suffer and Stop enters Stealth once again and retreats to a safe distance, hopefully not having been noticed while the rest of your group was handling the camp mobs.
After a number of suspiciously unsuccessful pulls, you realize what's happening and advance the Logs agenda on the crowdforging site.
Anyone, anywhere, anytime; you can and will die to assassins, but will you even notice?
I suspect this will be taken the wrong way, but I'm not shy about expressing my opinion.
I think the above scenario described by Kyutaru is the perfect example of how an Assassin would hone his / her own skills, as well as test the character's build in as close a real environment as possible.
The scenario does not describe anything that approaches repeated assaults against the same character. No negative dialogue between the parties. Just a professional killer (player and character) putting his skills to the test.
Other unknowns, could also be a play here. Player Killer Achievement could have both in-game and meta game benefits, otherwise why would GW have put it in?
I can imagine that once factions are in the game and the Assassin's Faction is in game, Player Killer levels will be required.
So to answer Harneloot's questions directly:
1. Players choose to play in the sandbox there own way, that is why it is called a sandbox.
2. If getting killed in non consensual PVP will make someone "miserable", I suggest that MMOs with PVP are not the genre for them.
3. PFO, just like many games, is competitive. There will be winners and losers, and the losers usually have less fun than the winners. It is not the winners' concern for the losers to have fun, it is the losers' concern to win.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Well, I guess we will see how the game develops. I have no problem with banditry and am interested in seeing how they implement SAD. I also have no problem with one nation annexing territory via conquest or defending their own. However, killing PCs just for the sake of killing them is psychopathic behavior (and anti-fun) and has no more place in the game then it does in society.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Unless they have been specifically hired to kill that person or are defending territory, why would anyone play the game like that? Just to make other players miserable? Why would anyone play a game just to make other people have less fun?A preview of PVP in the post-patch future:
You are out farming mobs or harvesting, obviously with several friends nearby. The puller takes the next mob group, then dies rather quickly. Perhaps you have overestimated this group's strength? No, you were certain only two purples existed and neither are mages.
Meanwhile, a Longbow-wielding Daredevil in Archer armor with MoO: Suffer and Stop enters Stealth once again and retreats to a safe distance, hopefully not having been noticed while the rest of your group was handling the camp mobs.
After a number of suspiciously unsuccessful pulls, you realize what's happening and advance the Logs agenda on the crowdforging site.
Anyone, anywhere, anytime; you can and will die to assassins, but will you even notice?
This seems perfectly legitimate to me, as well. What Kyutaru did not include was the reason this assassin was doing this, which may be why there is confusion. As Tink and Bludd already pointed out, there are various reasons: resource denial, hampering an enemy (if they are not war/feud targets, it will come at a large rep cost), territorial protection, or even just honing your assassin skills (again, at a large rep cost if not a war/feud target).
This is not like PvP in WoW; many might consider this sort of behavior in WoW as mean-spirited or unsportsmanlike (I wouldn't, depending on a few factors), because the assassin's guild does not gain a significant advantage by hampering your advancement.
I have never played a game where the risks/rewards for PvP were greater than what I could personally gain/lose from looting/dying, so I haven't thought everything through just yet. However, it seems to me that the Reputation mechanic is designed such that doing something like this against a group that is not an enemy (i.e. war/feud target) is a decision that must be made carefully. If you randomly kill people, your reputation will tank and you won't be able to 'use it' killing non-war targets that you might have better reasons for killing (gathering your resources near your settlement, scouting your territory/towers, etc).
TL;DR If in Kyutaru's example the assassin chose this group at random, he/she will quickly lose rep and will have to stop or be forced to live with the consequences for awhile. If there is no rep-loss from the kills, there exists a myriad of legitimate reasons for the assassin to kill them. In other words, you are right, Harneloot; if they are doing it for no other reason than 'for the lulz,' the game will punish them through the reputation mechanic. The reputation mechanic will also punish them for legitimate reasons (defending territory, etc), which makes for interesting choices about how settlements will enforce 'no trespassing' rules... and I like that =)
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Goblin Squad Member
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why would anyone play the game like that? Just to make other players miserable? Why would anyone play a game just to make other people have less fun?
That's what griefing is, when your fun comes from ruining other people's fun.
A PVPer might fight other PCs because it's fun. Other people are far less predictable than AI-controlled monsters. Not knowing what your opponent might do next can be much more exciting than knowing an NPC's pre-determined attack pattern.
A griefer might kill a newbie who is trying to kill their first three goblins for the intro quest. Repeatedly. Preferably until the newbie breaks down in Hex chat and announces that they're logging out and deleting their account. Yes, ruining someone else's fun is some people's idea of fun.
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Goblin Squad Member
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why would anyone play the game like that? Just to make other players miserable? Why would anyone play a game just to make other people have less fun?That's what griefing is, when your fun comes from ruining other people's fun.
Why would anyone skin cats or burn puppies? It's not for nothing that Ryan calls them sociopaths.
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Goblin Squad Member
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A good example of griefing is a group of younger gaming friends/associates I met through LG organised play from a local private boarding school who managed to work out the MMO character and server of a teenage girl that they knew from another school and then all created characters specifically to kill her every time she logged in just to be funny.
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Goblin Squad Member
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A good example of griefing is a group of younger gaming friends/associates I met through LG organised play from a local private boarding school who managed to work out the MMO character and server of a teenage girl that they knew from another school and then all created characters specifically to kill her every time she logged in just to be funny.
Not only is that griefing, it's cyber bullying and potentially criminal in some states. Not because it is occuring in a game so much as, they know her in real life.
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Goblinworks Executive Founder
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A good example of griefing is a group of younger gaming friends/associates I met through LG organised play from a local private boarding school who managed to work out the MMO character and server of a teenage girl that they knew from another school and then all created characters specifically to kill her every time she logged in just to be funny.Not only is that griefing, it's cyber bullying and potentially criminal in some states. Not because it is occuring in a game so much as, they know her in real life.
Certainly bullying, but I would find it shocking if a prosecutor said it was illegal, even if he didn't pursue charges.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Certainly bullying, but I would find it shocking if a prosecutor said it was illegal, even if he didn't pursue charges.A good example of griefing is a group of younger gaming friends/associates I met through LG organised play from a local private boarding school who managed to work out the MMO character and server of a teenage girl that they knew from another school and then all created characters specifically to kill her every time she logged in just to be funny.Not only is that griefing, it's cyber bullying and potentially criminal in some states. Not because it is occuring in a game so much as, they know her in real life.
Here in NY, it is certainly something they do prosecute, especially when it involves schools (including colleges).
Unless they have been specifically hired to kill that person or are defending territory, why would anyone play the game like that? Just to make other players miserable? Why would anyone play a game just to make other people have less fun?A preview of PVP in the post-patch future:
...
After a number of suspiciously unsuccessful pulls, you realize what's happening and advance the Logs agenda on the crowdforging site.
Anyone, anywhere, anytime; you can and will die to assassins, but will you even notice?
IMHO, if this assassin had gone down and looted the people he killed, it would have been "content" instead of potentially viewed as "griefing".
Note: I don't think it is actually griefing.