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Greetings everyone,
I have created a rudamentary system for players to report non-consenual PvP such as banditry and griefing.
Any feedback is welcome.
The goal is three fold.
1. Document incidences of non-consenual PvP in a manner that will allow the community to better identify bandits from griefers.
2. Provide a system that will aid settlement leaders in the policing of their own territories.
3. Create a systematic means of recording where banditry happens most often so travelers can better plan their travel routes and enforcers can better focus their policing efforts.
The River Kingdoms currently has no systematic means of accomplishing items 1 or 2, and it is my concern that griefers may be going un-noticed because their actions are undocumented, while groups policing poachers and trespassers in their territory may be confused with true bandits or griefers.
I would appreciate support from settlement and community leaders by promoting this space on your respective forums as well as communicating its availability to players in-game and in IRC.
A Shivtr account is required to file a report.
(OOC: It has been pointed out to me that if I want folks to use this, I should make it a form that is easy to fill out, so I will be making a surveymonkey or google form here shortly.
@Pyronous: it is not care bear if it is fascilitating players role playing their characters while also creating a means of spotting and rooting out true griefers- you know, the sorts of folks that will run players of this game and leave you with no game to play?)
Goblin Squad Member
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Date of the event: 1-18-15
Time of the event: 00:23
Location - Thornkeep Bank
NS-EW Coordinates:
Hex Coordinates:
Hex Description:
Victim(s): Harbinger
Attacker(s): Bluddwolf and Co.
Were you given any warnings before being attacked? (Only keep answers that apply)
Yes, I was warned that I was trespassing/gathering without permission.
Yes, I was warned to hand over all of my goods.
Yes, other communication was given. Description:
No warning or other communication was given.
No, of course not, otherwise it would not have been "Non Consensual"
Did the warning or communications give you a non-violent option for resolution?
Yes.
No.
Did you comply with the communications?
Yes
No
N/A
Did you try to fight back or run?
Fought back
Ran
Both
Neither, I died
Were you killed?
Yes, after complying with warnings/communications.
Yes, after attempting to fight back.
Yes, after attempting to flee.
Yes, without warning or provocation.
No, after complying with warnings/communications.
No, after attempting to fight back.
No, after attempting to flee.
Were you killed multiple times?
Yes
No
Do you feel you were "grief'ed"? Yes, I died and then I cried for my loss of durability
Were possessions taken?
Yes, all of them.
Yes, all except what I had equipped.
Yes, some of them.
No, nothing taken, other than my sense of security and self worth. I asked my Mommy to hold me, and I almost feel better now
Were the attackers respectful?
Yes, very respectful.
Yes, somewhat respectful.
Meh.
No, somewhat rude.
No, extremely rude.
They were cold blooded killers. Said nothing, just killed. Can you imagine my dismay, I returned from getting a snack and found I was killed! People in local told me it was Bluddwolf and some others. He is a reputed "meanie!!"
Description of the events:
This report was fabricated to illustrate the flaws in such a system as this
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yeah yeah fatten the cow before you eat it i know i know but where is the grass for the cow to eat hmmm.
This is completely incomprehensible, so I'm going to assume we're talking in code. The grass is in the henhouse. I repeat, the grass is in the henhouse.
Throwaway characters for the win
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The problem with this thread is the title makes it sound like non-consensual PvP is something to "report"—and "reporting" is generally equated with "reporting to mods" in MMO lingo. A better word would have been "recording" or "tracking".
Throwaway characters for the win
Gonna be hard to do 1,000 exp griefing of T2 characters. But yeah, throwaway characters were already going to be a thing with or without a reporting system. A reporting system increases the odds of catching those characters.
The problem with this thread is the title makes it sound like non-consensual PvP is something to "report"—and "reporting" is generally equated with "reporting to mods" in MMO lingo. A better word would have been "recording" or "tracking".
Yes, thank you.
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Personally, I think a system to keep track of where banditry occurs would be a great boon to everyone. It allows merchants to adapt and select new routes, forcing the bandits to actually work to find good targets.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Throwaway characters for the win
Second account characters as well. Plus the basic premise is flawed. I spent all but two minutes coming up with that false report, it actually took me more time to type the [b][/b] for the answers.
If I really wanted to test the system, and for the system to fail, I'd truly fabricate a incident, I'd use actors and have unknowing witnesses. I could name a character Ssspitfire1 and cause all kind of grief.
"It's better than no system at all", I actually think it is worse than no system at all. It us ripe for abuse, unenforceable and unnecessary. Even the title of this thread is completely wrong.
The game is built on the premise that there will be Non Consensual PvP. You want a reporting system to report that players are playing the game. Where do we report someone is crafting items in Marchmont?
Your reporting system will be spammed by the same five Care Bears that whine about anytime they lose in PvP. When nothing comes of their complaints, they will rage quit and you will have spent countless minutes or even hours pondering their supposed plight.
Lol, I guess it is your time to waste. I fully expect that some will complain that I have non consensually ganked them and stole their stuff. You won't need to investigate it, I freely take credit for PvPing in a PvP game. You are welcome to pass a message into the complainers, "You are not safe; Only carry what you can afford to lose; It is all about the coin."
Geez, player looting hasn't even begun yet.
Second account characters as well. Plus the basic premise is flawed. I spent all but two minutes coming up with that false report, it actually took me more time to type the [b][/b] for the answers.
If I really wanted to test the system, and for the system to fail, I'd truly fabricate a incident, I'd use actors and have unknowing witnesses. I could name a character Ssspitfire1 and cause all kind of grief.
If you would like to waste your life on this, be my guest :) You will have to do it daily to have any impact on the system, though. So have fun!
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You must think us all fools Blud.
Regardless of all that malarkey, I think a nice simple "Lightning Strikes" map, perhaps even linked to the pfoatlas for geotagging that allows for descriptions.
Sure it can get faked, just like everything else can, but as a Freeholder and Merchant Role player, knowing what hotspots for PvP there are around will be invaluable to me and my peers. As long as it's easy to use with minimal login-gates then I can see it begin adopted and useful.
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Goblin Squad Member
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You must think us all fools Blud.
Regardless of all that malarkey, I think a nice simple "Lightning Strikes" map, perhaps even linked to the pfoatlas for geotagging that allows for descriptions.
Sure it can get faked, just like everything else can, but as a Freeholder and Merchant Role player, knowing what hotspots for PvP there are around will be invaluable to me and my peers. As long as it's easy to use with minimal login-gates then I can see it begin adopted and useful.
EVE Online is involved (fior lack of better term) with Dotlan Maps, which tracks PvP in systems. I have previously supported this kind of third party application for use with PFO. It simply provides raw data, and can not be fabricated. It can tell you who was killed and by whom, but nothing about motivations or circumstances.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Bluddwolf will crap on any idea that he doesn't like and shout that a single flaw ruins it . . . primarily because he thinks it'll actually get in the way of him taking advantage of people. If Bluddwolf wasn't opposed to it, then you might want to reconsider.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Bluddwolf will crap on any idea that he doesn't like and shout that a single flaw ruins it . . . primarily because he thinks it'll actually get in the way of him taking advantage of people. If Bluddwolf wasn't opposed to it, then you might want to reconsider.
I have nothing to fear from such a system, I freely admit I will take advantage of those not wary enough. I don't care about gentlemenly play, only their loot, by "Hook or Crook" as they say.
I can only hope that the game system will allow for the situation where some fool is running across my path with 100 Goblin Balls in his inventory, and I get 75% of them on the kill.
If you don't think this will happen, look at EvE, it happens more often then it should. But, like I said, only if Goblin Balls are an inventory item in game, will this be possible.
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You're misunderstanding Bluddwolf. His problem isn't when you're making his job harder—that's how the game is played—it's when he thinks his playstyle is under attack as "griefing". This thread's title just didn't set a friendly tone—hell, I came here ready to complain about it, then read the post and realized it was fairly harmless. Immediately, this thread is Red in his eyes.
I'm not saying I agree with Bluddwolf's complaints, but saying "It's obviously because he fears our mighty list!" is kinda a terrible idea. It both accuses him of duplicity and completely fails to contribute to a meaningful dialogue, completely ignoring any potentially valid points he raises.
You like swords, right? Everybody likes swords! Well, let's go get some!
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Goblin Squad Member
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This is both a good idea as well as a terrible one.
The good is - it should help to detect better true griefers.
The terrible one - we don't want to brand non griefing bandits as griefers.
A lot will depend on how it is used. The tool itself is neutral - it is how it will be used or misused that determines if it a good idea or not.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I'm not saying I agree with Bluddwolf's complaints, but saying "It's obviously because he fears our mighty list!" is kinda a terrible idea. It both accuses him of duplicity and completely fails to contribute to a meaningful dialogue, completely ignoring any potentially valid points he raises.
I'm absolutely accusing him of duplicity and pointing out his lack of contribution to meaningful dialogue. Because that's how he operates. If he wants to offer valid points, he shouldn't frame it in such a negative manner.
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Merchant: "Ha! This dragon will protect us from bandits!"
Bandit: "It's a stuffed dragon. A children's toy. It's not going to stop me."
Merchant: "You're just saying that because you're scared of it!"
Bandit: "No, I'm just saying—"
Merchant: "That you are criticizing it is proof it is a threat to you!"
Bandit: "Okay, you know what? Yeah. I'm scared of the dragon. Feel free to depend completely upon the dragon to protect you. I'll be right back."
*Bandit returns in five minutes with his horde of followers and wipes the caravan out*
Bandit: "sale stuffed dragon 15 gp"
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Goblin Squad Member
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That Bluddwolf is detracting from the system means he is threatened by it. Specifically, he will have to hunt a little harder for his food while avoiding arrows of justice from my bow. Working as intended :)
How could I be threatened by justice, I have spent the last two years challenging it.
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"Again, stuffed dragon. Can't talk. But, uh, sure."
Yeah, so clarification. The goal here is not to establish that Bludd's play style is griefing. As has been pointed out, the title of the thread was a mistake on my part. I've updated the language in the form, etc. to reflect the tracking purpose of this system. As Thod put it, how the information is used is the point at which the system has the greatest potential for abuse.
I'll add that I do not take Bluddwolf to be a griefer. He knows as we all know that such behavior as true griefing would result in us not having a game to play.
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That Bluddwolf is detracting from the system means he is threatened by it. Specifically, he will have to hunt a little harder for his food while avoiding arrows of justice from my bow. Working as intended :)How could I be threatened by justice, I have spent the last two years challenging it.
Tuche!
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Goblin Squad Member
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I'm absolutely accusing him of duplicity and pointing out his lack of contribution to meaningful dialogue.Because that's how he operates.My first post has generated a dozen or more responses. Perhaps "meaningful dialogue" to you only means dialogue you agree with?
And my post generated responses too! I guess that makes it meaningful too.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I'm here for the swords!You forgot about his penchant for "Eve this" and "Eve" that.
If you like Eve so much, go play it.
Uh, yup.
My expectations and opinions have shifted over time as I've gotten more involved in the community, but I definitely backed the kickstarter on the premise that is sounded like a lot like Fantasy EVE.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I think having ANY type of recording system or journalistic venture would benefit the game immensely. I can hardly turn on the ten o'clock news without being subjected to a homicide report. While it's mostly sensationalist drivel as Bludd points out, some people use it as a litmus test of the waters to see where to avoid and more importantly whom.
Obviously the criminal filth of the underworld would oppose such an initiative. Information can be powerful in the right hands and the bandits and murderers would see us devoid of it.
We must all remember the loss of poor Harbinger and strive to do all we can to avoid such a tragedy again. I happily support what shall be henceforth known as "Harbinger's Law" in identifying criminal activity and raising awareness of its doers and locations. Would you want your children to be gathering innocently while predators lurk about? We must identify WHO these predators are, WHERE they live, and what venues they frequent.
Think of the children who will be playing this game!
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And my post generated responses too! I guess that makes it meaningful too.
Telling people not to post only inspires discussion when you're trying to silence people like us, who never shut up. ;)
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Goblin Squad Member
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Getting this idea into a more productive course, why wouldn't a system like DOTLAN Maps work in PFO?
Yes, it would require API and Kill Mails. The information could actually be nearly identical.
It would allow for merchants to plot routes that are safer. It would also provide bandits with information that would be of use to them as well.
Obvious troll is.....
obvious.
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Three lists could come from this information:
Most Wanted Bandits - I would expect Bluddwolf to be at or near the top.
Aggressive Characters - Folks like Commander Nefarious and Bows would certainly top this list. Bluddwolf might also make it, depending on how aggressive his banditry tactics are. These are characters who are exceptionally aggressive. Characters on this list may be KOS in some areas and welcomed as heroes in others (Bows, for example).
Confirmed Griefers - This would be a list of characters that have been confirmed by several settlement and community leaders to be actively griefing players, whether it is from first hand encounters by the leadership or players in their communities complaining of griefing. This list would be hard enough to get on to earn the character a KOS status across the game, even from the least care-bear-like among us. Characters that make this list will likely have already caught the eye of GW and be under their scrutiny, as well.