I love me some kobolds, but mechanically, they're...well... kobolds.
I was just wondering, is there anything a kobold can do that no other eace can do as well or better? Their racial archetypes aren't bad, but they aren't really exceptional, and the kobold bloodline seems kinda...meh.
Note - I still will play a kobold, sometimes, even if they are subpar. I'm just wondering if there's anything they can really excel at.
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Dying.
Besides that? They get a pretty good racial Bloodline as sorcerers.
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Personally I have been trying to figure out a really nice build for a kobold for some time now and have had no luck.
I toyed with the idea of a Bard (Dawnflower Dervish Archetype) with the Jester alternative racial trait. Also I have debated playing a Dex based Magus (Bladebound, Hexcrafter, or Kensai archetype) but nothing about the kobold really synergizes well. The last idea I was thinking about was maybe a ninja or slayer just because of the stealthiness of a kobold and their tendency to shy away from upfront confrontation.
Truthfully I don't know that kobolds really have an absolute great choice for class but more than likely the best choice you can go with is a Stealthy hit and run type character or even an Alchemist. I may be wrong about my assessment and in fact I hope I am wrong and that there is something I have missed. I would love to see a great build for a kobold myself. Good luck man!
Having low Strength! I dare you to find someone better!
Tthey have a crap-ton of racial feats if you wanna invest in that. I like the idea of them a whole lot, but Con/Str penalty is harsh. If they just had bonus Int or Cha or something...
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Being underestimated. If you're sneaking into a place and get spotted, a single kobold may not be worth raising the alarm for.
Kobold Sniper is a feat which makes short range sniping possible without magic, if barely.
In game mechanics they can be OK but they're never the best choice at anything.
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Monks are alright, due to the ac you can take as a favored class bouns.
Swash is alright, due to relying on dex, and the ability to select flight as a feat later on.
Good at stealth, like all small creatures.
Only race that can be a Devine dragon Deciple.
Have a great bard archetype that lets you use diplomacy as a full round action once a day. see that Minotaur? *causally walks up*
"good day sir."
And the Minotaur is completely ok with this.
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Dying.
Besides that? They get a pretty good racial Bloodline as sorcerers.
Being shoes and handbags?
Anyway, they have a sneak attack centered gunslinger archetype. Gunslinger in general works well into their dex and lack of str, and an affinity with tools seems to work well into their crafty nature.
I also like to think they have large stores of gunpowder, both for mining purposes and to cave in sections of their tunnels when pesky adventurers come around.
Prehensile Tail would make them decent Gunslingers, and their Archetype stacks up nicely with an agile cestus TWF gunslinger.
You gain effectively 6d6 sneak attack on bullet attacks if you can deny them their Dex to AC, which works well with Two Weapon Feint since you can forgo your first fist attack to spook them and then shoot them in the face.
There is Kobold Confidence which allows you to dump Constitution for a mental stat. (Note: Con still effects HP, just not Fort saves and Negative HP)
Most of the stuff mentioned seems like stuff goblins would do even better... :-/
Icehawk, I wasn't aware of the full round diplomacy, so that's sweet! And I suppose with a divine DD you could have a pretty defensive turtle build.
Heck, with that dragon herald bard, you could walk up to cuthulu, and make him indifferent towards you.
If you were a human abusing the racial heartige feat, you could make that into "make cuthulu friendly towards you with one full round action."
Or, use a single intimidate check using the same ability, and skip straight to friendly for 10*1d6 minutes.
Not sure what you'd use the sort version for, but getting creative is neccecery if you're against cuthulu.
Icehawk, I wasn't aware of the full round diplomacy, so that's sweet! And I suppose with a divine DD you could have a pretty defensive turtle build.
You do have a limited number of uses.
Thank goodness, or they would end every encounter with a friendly handshake.
Wait... isn't that supposed to be a good thing?
Getting cleaved and magic missled and maced and dying by the dozen.
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Getting cleaved and magic missled and maced and dying by the dozen.
You know, it's almost like this joke has been done before. A lot.
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http://www.tuckerskobolds.com/
Now this may not go towards your lone kobold, but if you can get a whole party to think like the reptilian schemers, you've got something regardless of actual stats and min/maxing. Think of tricks your kobold could do, think of traps, don't think about being the stand up fighter or wizard. If you're playing a kobold, you need to emphazise the one thing that DOES make them different than any other race.
Being a scheming bastard.
Kobold Confidence is an amazing feat. Any CHA-based class loves this, except Bloodrager and Paladin.
Kobold Confidence is an amazing feat. Any CHA-based class loves this, except Bloodrager and Paladin.
Or oracle, because they made that feat that gives you a paladin's saves.
Kobold Confidence is an amazing feat. Any CHA-based class loves this, except Bloodrager and Paladin.Or oracle, because they made that feat that gives you a paladin's saves.
We had decided never to mention that feat again.
Most of the stuff mentioned seems like stuff goblins would do even better... :-/
Mechanically, most likely.
But this can be about image as well. Kobolds fill a similar niche as the 'low level mooks', but on opposite sides of the Chaos/Law spectrum.
For example, Goblins are manic little buggers, and when it comes to gunpowder, you expect them to blow themselve up more often than they blow up humans (if only because they are around the stuff more often). You also expect them to use it as waist high cover and leave it next to their barracks.
You expect Kobolds to be competent. Conniving and cowardly, yes, but they know what they are doing.
http://www.tuckerskobolds.com/
Now this may not go towards your lone kobold, but if you can get a whole party to think like the reptilian schemers, you've got something regardless of actual stats and min/maxing. Think of tricks your kobold could do, think of traps, don't think about being the stand up fighter or wizard. If you're playing a kobold, you need to emphazise the one thing that DOES make them different than any other race.
Being a scheming bastard.
Humans can do that too. Try again.
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We had decided never to mention that feat again.Kobold Confidence is an amazing feat. Any CHA-based class loves this, except Bloodrager and Paladin.Or oracle, because they made that feat that gives you a paladin's saves.
I did no such thing.
Humans can do that too. Try again.http://www.tuckerskobolds.com/
Now this may not go towards your lone kobold, but if you can get a whole party to think like the reptilian schemers, you've got something regardless of actual stats and min/maxing. Think of tricks your kobold could do, think of traps, don't think about being the stand up fighter or wizard. If you're playing a kobold, you need to emphazise the one thing that DOES make them different than any other race.
Being a scheming bastard.
Save kobolds have a racial bonus to craft (traps) and darkvison.
And the stealth bonus from small.
Making them almost as good at being a sneaky bastard as lions.
Humans can do that too. Try again.http://www.tuckerskobolds.com/
Now this may not go towards your lone kobold, but if you can get a whole party to think like the reptilian schemers, you've got something regardless of actual stats and min/maxing. Think of tricks your kobold could do, think of traps, don't think about being the stand up fighter or wizard. If you're playing a kobold, you need to emphazise the one thing that DOES make them different than any other race.
Being a scheming bastard.
Honestly- the about only thing they have mechanically is that they are natural underdogs. Which makes them fill several roles very well.
When you can sympathize with the kobold, you are ecstatic that they succeed. A hardwon victory is the sweetest, particularly when it is through wit and planning. They fill a similar role to halflings in that regard.
As enemies, they infuriate you when they get those hard won victories. How dare these little insignificant roaches dare get one over on you. BARBARIAN RAGE!
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Kobold alchemist , mostly if you focus on the bombing, their favored class bonus to get more bomb comes in handy.
Kobold inquisitor or oracle + scaled disciple feat into Dragon Disciple...yup divine caster dragon disciple.
Snare Setter (rogue): their racial archetype is actually very nice, yeah you are playing rogue but with the ranger traps...that really make the typical trap maker Kobold.
And like most small size races out there, decent gunslingers.
Kobolds have a strangely amazing favored class bonus for monk...+6 untyped bonus to AC that applies all the time.
Sneaks - goblins are way better.
Group ambushes - again, goblins have the same int and wisdom as kobolds, so really, if a kobold can plan it, so can a goblin
Traps - I guess, but...really? Kinda a joke, honestly, and +2 on a craft skill isn't much
It does seem like they can turtle up pretty well as monks or divine DDs, so I guess they have the best AC potential?
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Kobolds, well, ... they are awesome at .... well ... at being AWESOME! Yeaaaaa!
I should know, I wrote the kobold section of the Monster Codex
There are some really nice things made for kobolds, such as the Scaled Disciple feat, but most of them can be obtained so much better with Racial Heritage.
Something I could find that is actually kobold exclusive that could come in handy:
Prehensile Tail alternate racial trait:
Not as nice as some other prehensile tails, but it lets you draw a hidden weapon as a move action. When combined with the Bandit archetype, this lets you actually use the Underhanded Rogue Talent (assuming your GM doesn't let natural attacks or unarmed strikes count). For optimal use, you can be Knife Master Rogue with Weapon Versatility and Sap Master. You'll be getting something like level x9 to sneak attack damage, or more if you dip classes like Snakebite Striker or Assassin.
This is very situational, and not worth being a kobold for, but at least it's something.There's probably a neat way to make use of the cleric favored class bonus, but that can be obtained through Racial Heritage as well.
I choose to ignore racial heritage (most of the time) when talking about races. It really isn't a fair comparison.
You get your pick of a stat, you burn your bonus feat, get extra skills, and access to the human spellcaster racial class bonus.
Sneaks - goblins are way better.
Group ambushes - again, goblins have the same int and wisdom as kobolds, so really, if a kobold can plan it, so can a goblinTraps - I guess, but...really? Kinda a joke, honestly, and +2 on a craft skill isn't much
It does seem like they can turtle up pretty well as monks or divine DDs, so I guess they have the best AC potential?
He was comparing to humans, not 'bolds.
Ideas for Kobold builds:
- Dirge Bard with Frightener and Jester, may intimidate with Perform (keyboard) and gets +2 at it, plus can make even undead flee with fear, really high DC fascinate performance and, yes, can even use it on undead. Plus you get all sorts of necromancy spells for more fear stuff (Feast on Fear?) and Kobold Confidence to fix your only weak save.
- Flowing Monk with ridiculously high dodge AC - thank you, FCB -, use Ki Throw to trip even the largest enemies.
- Swarm Fighter with Shoulder to Shoulder, get the Animal Ally feat to get a small Animal Companion to help you increase your power (or dipping into Cavalier to qualify for Horse Master). Use FCB to deal a ton of damage to the flat-footed enemy you share a space with. Perhaps take Antagonize and Cry Challenge to make enemy waste attacks of opportunity while you use Step Up, you could even do something with that and Panther Style.
Ideas for Kobold builds:
- Dirge Bard with Frightener and Jester, may intimidate with Perform (keyboard) and gets +2 at it, plus can make even undead flee with fear, really high DC fascinate performance and, yes, can even use it on undead. Plus you get all sorts of necromancy spells for more fear stuff (Feast on Fear?) and Kobold Confidence to fix your only weak save.
- Flowing Monk with ridiculously high dodge AC - thank you, FCB -, use Ki Throw to trip even the largest enemies.
- Swarm Fighter with Shoulder to Shoulder, get the Animal Ally feat to get a small Animal Companion to help you increase your power (or dipping into Cavalier to qualify for Horse Master). Use FCB to deal a ton of damage to the flat-footed enemy you share a space with. Perhaps take Antagonize and Cry Challenge to make enemy waste attacks of opportunity while you use Step Up, you could even do something with that and Panther Style.
Plus the natural armor and size on the monk.
Also... Bold's are really good at being interesting.
"Oh, but anything can do that"
Yeah. But kobolds, if played well, can be a perfect, stereotypical member of their race, and still be really interesting.
Heck, so long as the party is powerful, the kobold could still be lawful evil, and still be loyal.
At least, until something bigger comes along.
Of course, the kobold was just going to Backstab the thing for you. Yes.
daring champ cavalier works alright for them, and swash lets them be dex-focused at level 1.
they've got great sorcerer and natural attack build options as well, and they make alright gunslingers too.
really, anything that streamlines them to capitalize on their strengths and avoid their weaknesses is pretty solid.
Oh, but anything can do that
Oh, but anything can do that
Yes.
*sarcam incoming*
And the experience of having a kobold is clearly worthless. Good job, you have ended this clearly pointless thread.
People have brought up effective Kobold builds that I haven't ragged on.
I haven't done so because they actually tried instead of insisting that Kobolds are special, precious things no matter what you do mechanically with then, even though the mechanical advantages of Kobolds is the whole point of the thread.
DM is right. I did specifically call out what are they mechanically best at? Perhaps the wording wasn't crystal, but in the first sentence I said their problems were mechanical.
Again, it's great that kobolds are, well, kobolds, and I love them for it...but I also love goblins, and don't feel like I'm shooting myself in the foot when I choose to play a goblin.
People have brought up effective Kobold builds that I haven't ragged on.
I haven't done so because they actually tried instead of insisting that Kobolds are special, precious things no matter what you do mechanically with then, even though the mechanical advantages of Kobolds is the whole point of the thread.
I wrote up one that could instant-defeat an enemy with diplomacy, and has access to bard spells and some interesting performances.
(Of course, humans can do it via racial heratige. what can't they do...)I'm not insisting anything. I'm just saying that mechanical benefit isn't everything.
...
Witch is completely contrary to my normal personality. Hunh. Apparently, I just like to cause problems.
A note is that Gunslingers get the same treatment that Monks do.
Only +4 mind you, but extra AC for a class that gets free AC and can wear armor is quite nice.
I do like the monk build Idea, especially a flowing Monk. Tanky Kobold makes the what factor all the better.
the problem is goblins got buffed up to RP 10, while kobolds did not, so goblins do everything better. ;-;
though, I did think about making a swashbuckler multi-classed with something... think it was barbarian or something.
I think it was 1 level of swash, with a temple sword(that was finesse-able) and then X levels of monk...
flurry my dex based temple sword, and tank out, while practically naked mind you.
I enjoy a ranged trapper ranger kobold build, go cross bow & you don't have to worry about the penalty to strength you would get with a composite bow. Kobold Sniper feat works pretty awesome with this also. There is an old 3.5 article called Kobolds: Playing To Their Strengths that add some minor buffs to the race that my group use for their players (natural weapons, sleight build, weapon proficiency with picks) & a couple more cross bow choices. Classic Monsters Revisited also has minor buffs based on colour that are paizo official (red scaled fire based sorcerer is pretty awesome).
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You officially don't need to use Crossbows anymore for that build, Ermak.
You can get the Exceptional Pull feat instead.
I personally change Kobold's stats to -2 str, +2 dex and +2 charisma
charisma due to their alleged dragon heritage.
You officially don't need to use Crossbows anymore for that build, Ermak.
You can get the Exceptional Pull feat instead.
...I might be uninformed here, but is there a difference between that and just grabbing a light crossbow and rapid reload for a STR penalty character? It looks like you spend 1 feat and end up with no str modifier added onto damage.
Heck, the light crossbow frankly looks better (mostly looking at criticals; I am very much of the mind the wider=better in practical terms, even if the DPR seems to have x3=19-20/x2; my lizard brain is just jonesing to have criticals, so frequency matters for it). It doesn't need to wait until level 3 (or far worse for 3/4 BAB) to turn on.
You officially don't need to use Crossbows anymore for that build, Ermak.
You can get the Exceptional Pull feat instead.
...I might be uninformed here, but is there a difference between that and just grabbing a light crossbow and rapid reload for a STR penalty character? It looks like you spend 1 feat and end up with no str modifier added onto damage.
Heck, the light crossbow frankly looks better (mostly looking at criticals; I am very much of the mind the wider=better in practical terms, even if the DPR seems to have x3=19-20/x2; my lizard brain is just jonesing to have criticals, so frequency matters for it). It doesn't need to wait until level 3 (or far worse for 3/4 BAB) to turn on.
Combat Style Feats mostly -- Parting Shot, Manyshot, Rapid Shot, etc. Also, Archer Fighter/Zen Archer Monk archetype stuff.
Point Blank Master as a combat style feat.
?
I am not disagreeing that archery style is the better choice. Just that you can take that style, and just grab rapid reload with one of your regular feats. All of the archery feats seem to apply equally to bows and crossbows.
Anyway, back to the main point- bolt ace seems great for kobolds too, since we all generally agree gunslinger is good for them. I mostly like bolt ace since it is far, far easier to argue into your table than fire arms. It meshes better with the flavor a lot of people go for (still feel free to wear cowboy hats). It also has some decent crit stuff (you get more grit since you are using 19-20, and you get x3 crits)
Oh, I found a good reason to go with bows instead- bracers of archery. I do not do much with ranged characters, so I am not sure if those are the best items, but it is an example of a place where bows do better (+2 attack and +1 damage means a lot when you are trading attack bonus for a ton of hits that would each get the extra damage)
Kobolds have little going for them. You can get some good bonuses to several things, but most of that can be done better with another race. While Kobolds have cool feats, fcbs, traits, and archetypes, few are game-changing and the Kobold-chassis is itself weak. This makes going Human/Aasimar with Racial Heritage almost always a stronger option.