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I see after 21 pages of asking for a wizard build, we will get a sorcerer build.
Fantastic...
I see after 21 pages of asking for a wizard build, we will get a sorcerer build.
Fantastic...
It demonstrates the gap between martials and casters equally well.
Can you at least admit the irony?
Sure. One has a more straight forward tactic that is harder to benefit from knowing. So I'm more inclined to select that one.
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I think the best part of it all is the fact that a sorcerer almost surely is a better choice for an arena-type battle.
Such a battle removes nearly the entire advantage a wizard has in his spellbook (limitless options on a day to day basis), and instead you have options to pick and choose from as needed. One off spells can be relegated to scrolls.
Or am I missing something? My system mastery is admittedly not the greatest, so I could very easily be missing something.
Not that it really should matter. Go ahead, make it a sorcerer. If we cant build a fighter for a sorcerer, then we have just as many problems as before.
doesnt that miss the entire point of the thread? shroedinger's wizard continues to remain unstatted, and will continue to be brought up forever.
(not to mention the thread itself is for mythic fighter vs mythic WIZARD)
doesnt that miss the entire point of the thread? shroedinger's wizard continues to remain unstatted, and will continue to be brought up forever.
(not to mention the thread itself is for mythic fighter vs mythic WIZARD)
I'll let others handle that.
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I'll let others handle that.doesnt that miss the entire point of the thread? shroedinger's wizard continues to remain unstatted, and will continue to be brought up forever.
(not to mention the thread itself is for mythic fighter vs mythic WIZARD)
...after spending an entire thread saying your wizard will smash a fighter.
good lord, this is the lamest attempt to avoid putting up or shutting up i have ever seen. now in the case that you lose (though i still personally lean toward the caster anyway), you can go "oh drat i seem to have lost. alas, had i been using my WIZARD build i would have trounced you! ah, it appears i've been called away, ta!"
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Anzyr - If your wizurd is so completely invincible, then why are you so utterly g!+$!~n terrified of anyone seeing the build? With the amount of BS you have continually spouted, it shouldn't matter if the other player has MONTHS to analyze your build.
But instead, it seems you're too afraid to even let a GM see it.
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I really just want to see this thread be done with, it was cool for the first 5 pages.
Also there really should be complete transparency afterwords.
I don't think a Sorcerer over a Wizard is really going to matter a whole awful lot... I'm sure someone else will make one anyways. People were discussing doing other things than Fighters anyways (from the Martial side).
Nah, you can take it as a Wizard loss if the Sorcerer loses. I was going to enter a Wizard, but not if I have to show the build.
Does that mean that there can be a last-minute Mythic AM BARBARIAN substitution?
Feel free. Unbreakable Fighter would probably help you more though.
Anzyr - If your wizurd is so completely invincible, then why are you so utterly g#+#*~n terrified of anyone seeing the build? With the amount of BS you have continually spouted, it shouldn't matter if the other player has MONTHS to analyze your build.
But instead, it seems you're too afraid to even let a GM see it.
Nah I don't care if a GM sees. I just don't want it posted afterwards. The Sorcerer build I have in mind I don't care if it is posted, because knowing the tactic does little to help people prepare against it in the future.
Nah, you can take it as a Wizard loss if the Sorcerer loses. I was going to enter a Wizard, but not if I have to show the build.
why? what's so horrible about posting it?
Nah, you can take it as a Wizard loss if the Sorcerer loses. I was going to enter a Wizard, but not if I have to show the build.why? what's so horrible about posting it?
Mostly because the tactics it uses while very effective can be countered. The Sorcerer meanwhile trades cleverness for raw power which makes knowing it's tactics no less difficult to counter.
Also, to be clear to AndIMustMask, there was never any assumption that the caster is Mythic. Just that there was level parity between the two opponents. The question was how many Tiers were needed to bridge the gap, if the gap could be bridged at all.
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My wizurd will destroy your paltry martial character. NOTHING YOU CAN DO CAN STOP ME! MWAA HAAA HAAA!!!!
repeat ad nausea across 20 g~~**+n pages....
Let's do a pbp combat to see what ACTUALLY happens....
i'm scared mommy
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um...here's my wizurd he's a sorcerer
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Also, to be clear to AndIMustMask, there was never any assumption that the caster is Mythic. Just that there was level parity between the two opponents. The question was how many Tiers were needed to bridge the gap, if the gap could be bridged at all.
gotcha.
Mostly because the tactics it uses while very effective can be countered. The Sorcerer meanwhile trades cleverness for raw power which makes knowing it's tactics hard to counter.Nah, you can take it as a Wizard loss if the Sorcerer loses. I was going to enter a Wizard, but not if I have to show the build.why? what's so horrible about posting it?
that's certainly a step down from what you've been saying this whole thread.
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Mostly because the tactics it uses while very effective can be countered. The Sorcerer meanwhile trades cleverness for raw power which makes knowing it's tactics no less difficult to counter.Nah, you can take it as a Wizard loss if the Sorcerer loses. I was going to enter a Wizard, but not if I have to show the build.why? what's so horrible about posting it?
As I understand it, the build would only be posted prior to the match. Only posted publicly AFTER the match. Which would be a necessary thing, to show that the GM impartiality (albeit not definitive proof of impartiality, as the GM and one of the players could be having a side discussion on how to adjust the build while the actual combat played out).
Mostly because the tactics it uses while very effective can be countered. The Sorcerer meanwhile trades cleverness for raw power which makes knowing it's tactics hard to counter.Is it that it can be countered, or is it more "this seems right for 20 minutes but is actually wrong" kind of things? That's super shady. "Oh noz, it has a defense." Really?
Nah, it'd work (unless the enemy has a lot of very specific defenses). But it could be prepared against in the future. The Sorcerer... not so much.
Interesting.
So we can deduce two things from Anzyr's actions here.
1) There are apparently weaknesses to his wizard, which is worthy of note by itself.
2) For some reason, this is actually about winning for him, possibly multiple times, rather than just determining the answer to the OP's question.
Nah, I just don't want to share. I was fully willing to use the Wizard as you can see, prior to the rules change which stated the build we publicly posted. I can come up with more tactics to cover any that can be prepared against (probably there's a lot of spells to work with) it's just a pain. I don't mind sharing simple tactics like Limited Wish duplicating Geas/Quest, or Explosive Rune stacking or Mage's Magnificent Enclosure + shrunken acid + Spellbane, but some tricks I like to keep up my sleeve.
Nah, it'd work (unless the enemy has a lot of very specific defenses). But it could be prepared against in the future. The Sorcerer... not so much.That fails a smell test. I hope you realize that.
I hope you realize that I offered to use a Wizard before the rules changed. The GM could have easily told you whether it was legal or not without posting it publicly. I have said all along that I would not be posting the Wizard build publicly, so this change causing me to use a different character should come as no surprise. And despite that I'm still willing to submit a build, just not the one I would have otherwise.
Pathfinder Tactics by Anzyr (TM)
Publish it
You'll get to see a new one with the Sorcerer!
I hope you realize that I offered to use a Wizard before the rules changed. The GM could have easily told you whether it was legal or not without posting it publicly. I have said all along that I would not be posting the Wizard build publicly, so this change causing me to use a different character should come as no surprise. And despite that I'm still willing to submit a build, just not the one I would have otherwise.You realize such a hotly contested claim being anything other than public inherently invalidates the test, right? Even if you're 100% correct, there can be zero confidence in it.
That was never my concern. I don't believe in using builds in the first place, if you can recall the start of the thread. Honestly, this is build and challenge is more to vent then prove anything.
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just a shot in the dark here, but i'm going to say that either anzyr doesn't actually have one and has been expertly trolling us for twenty pages.
the alternative is too silly to consider.
just a shot in the dark here, but i'm going to say that either anzyr doesn't actually have one and has been expertly trolling us for twenty pages.
the alternative is too silly to consider.
Your call. As I said, I'm already making a concession even using a build, since I don't think they prove much in the first place.
Bwuahahahahahaha!
Anzyr you sly dog, you had us going for 20+ pages and you yourself don't think your wizard could win.
I'm sure you'll respond to this with, "oh he would win", but then still never show a build.
*wink* Oh I am sure he would *wink*
*chuckles*
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I want to hear the horror stories from Anzyr's GM
"Yeah well, he doesn't believe in builds or character sheets. I don't want to offend his religious beliefs or anything so I let it slide. He comes to our sessions for an hour once each year and shouts 'wizard wins!' then zoidbergs out of the game shop. Once he is a safe distance away we play the real campaign."
Which means, effectively, that no matter how many times we come up with a defense against the things you are willing to post, we can never reach resolution?
I know I'm beating a dead horse with this, but I'll continue to do so until it is well and truly tender.
What is an effective counter for the undetectable, flying opponent, that you don't know is in any particular location (except possible plane/country) at any particular time? When I first started giving a build, I assumed that both opponents had to find the other one, and may possibly have been constrained to a plane (as that would really only extend the search period)
If the answer is, I spread the entire plane/country with simulacra or other beings that will cast Greater Dispel Area Effects at horizontal/vertical intervals such that the entire vertical and horizontal play space is covered, then I'm not satisfied. Partially because most of those creatures can only cast it a few times per day, and will only get an effect (possibly not invisibility, mind you) countered for a short period. Also, this is such a flagrant abuse of wealth by level expectations that I'm surprised my computer isn't on fire.
Is there another answer you've posted that was lost to the swelling tide of posts in this thread? I very possibly might have missed it.
Your call. As I said, I'm already making a concession even using a build, since I don't think they prove much in the first place.just a shot in the dark here, but i'm going to say that either anzyr doesn't actually have one and has been expertly trolling us for twenty pages.
the alternative is too silly to consider.
er, you mean the wizard build you've repeatedly alluded to and never deigned to post, then refused to use it outright when it would get posted?
that one? yeah, that's the one i'm saying doesn't exist.
you have made no concession, there is no build. there has been no build this entire thread, which is what a great deal of the thread has been pointing out to you.
is a demi-plane that overlaps the arena still inside the arena?
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The most hilarious thing is how he's unflinchingly strict RAW in the face of all logic or sense when it suits him.
This is the guy who has argued that if you attack the leader of a race / nation / etc, it would be utterly impossible for they to have any supporting combatants that aren't specifically referenced in their stat blocks.
But apparently that strict adherence to the letter of the RAW doesn't apply to HIM actually having to bother to stat up his own character.
And people call some retro-clones "Mother May I?" :P
Reminds me of another post by some Wizard fanatic...that character got one shotted by a ROGUE.
Interestingly enough, they still tout their wizard as being the greatest most powerful thing ever....
Though I suppose now they might opt to post a sorcerer instead of a wizard build if in a similar situation as this thread....
I should be the GM (I won't be one in this though, not enough time)...I make it much harder for spellcasters to try to BS their way through vague rules...
of course in previous history...I think a specific person who favors wizards had a problem prior with me and my ideas and rulings in regards to AMF...going through ludicrous lengths of contortions because of it...
And that's only a sixth level effect on an item...imagine if a 20th level fighter with WBL actually faced a wizard with effective items!
I believe a Sorcerer could actually be easier to shut down in that light depending on the size of the arena. Make it a 10x10 space...and if the Fighter wins iniative with the right equipment...even a 12th level fighter should be able to win...
This stuff is HIGHLY GM and environment dependant IMO.
Your call. As I said, I'm already making a concession even using a build, since I don't think they prove much in the first place.just a shot in the dark here, but i'm going to say that either anzyr doesn't actually have one and has been expertly trolling us for twenty pages.
the alternative is too silly to consider.
er, you mean the wizard build you've repeatedly alluded to and never deigned to post, then refused to use it outright when it would get posted?
that one? yeah, that's the one i'm saying doesn't exist.
you have made no concession, there is no build. there has been no build this entire thread, which is what a great deal of the thread has been pointing out to you.
Oh there's a build. It's just not the one you want to see. But I think it will make the point eloquently enough, unless you believe Wizards are weaker than Sorcerers.
Oh there's a build.
Oh there's a build. It's just not the one you want to see. But I think it will make the point eloquently enough, unless you believe Wizards are weaker than Sorcerers.Your call. As I said, I'm already making a concession even using a build, since I don't think they prove much in the first place.just a shot in the dark here, but i'm going to say that either anzyr doesn't actually have one and has been expertly trolling us for twenty pages.
the alternative is too silly to consider.
er, you mean the wizard build you've repeatedly alluded to and never deigned to post, then refused to use it outright when it would get posted?
that one? yeah, that's the one i'm saying doesn't exist.
you have made no concession, there is no build. there has been no build this entire thread, which is what a great deal of the thread has been pointing out to you.
see, you keep saying that, but im not seeing any builds.
as for the second part, i'm looking for *A* wizard build from you. or more specifically this roflstomp build you've been preaching about literally all thread.
Oh there's a build.Right
I do hope you'll submit a build against my Sorcerer. Might want to deafen yourself first.
Oh there's a build. It's just not the one you want to see. But I think it will make the point eloquently enough, unless you believe Wizards are weaker than Sorcerers.Your call. As I said, I'm already making a concession even using a build, since I don't think they prove much in the first place.just a shot in the dark here, but i'm going to say that either anzyr doesn't actually have one and has been expertly trolling us for twenty pages.
the alternative is too silly to consider.
er, you mean the wizard build you've repeatedly alluded to and never deigned to post, then refused to use it outright when it would get posted?
that one? yeah, that's the one i'm saying doesn't exist.
you have made no concession, there is no build. there has been no build this entire thread, which is what a great deal of the thread has been pointing out to you.
see, you keep saying that, but im not seeing any builds.
as for the second part, i'm looking for *A* wizard build from you. or more specifically this roflstomp build you've been preaching about literally all thread.
You can always switch the Sorcerer levels for Wizard levels if it'll make you feel better.
I do hope you'll submit a build against my Sorcerer. Might want to deafen yourself first.Oh there's a build.Right
You'll see my build on post #6 in this thread.
I found a way to counter it later on in the thread with a wizard showing all the stats that would be in play.
I got so tired of waiting on you, that I began to argue myself. I even found a method to make an air-tight geas command while you refused to show even that much.
You can always switch the Sorcerer levels for Wizard levels if it'll make you feel better.Oh there's a build. It's just not the one you want to see. But I think it will make the point eloquently enough, unless you believe Wizards are weaker than Sorcerers.Your call. As I said, I'm already making a concession even using a build, since I don't think they prove much in the first place.just a shot in the dark here, but i'm going to say that either anzyr doesn't actually have one and has been expertly trolling us for twenty pages.
the alternative is too silly to consider.
er, you mean the wizard build you've repeatedly alluded to and never deigned to post, then refused to use it outright when it would get posted?
that one? yeah, that's the one i'm saying doesn't exist.
you have made no concession, there is no build. there has been no build this entire thread, which is what a great deal of the thread has been pointing out to you.
see, you keep saying that, but im not seeing any builds.
as for the second part, i'm looking for *A* wizard build from you. or more specifically this roflstomp build you've been preaching about literally all thread.
sorcerers are kiddie-pool wizards and we both know it, but i suppose with all those swashbuckler levels deflecting is all you seem to be good at.
i'm going to assume you're a liar from now on, and continue doing so until you provide proof of any claims you make in the future.
i'm disappointed really.
You'll see my build on post #6 in this thread.
I found a way to counter it later on in the thread with a wizard showing all the stats that would be in play.
I got so tired of waiting on you, that I began to argue myself. I even found a method to make an air-tight geas command while you refused to show even that much.
oh?