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Because dropping 3 levels and 5 Feats isn't worth it for the vast majority of characters?
This. Basically.
It's hardly worth it for almost all Barbarian, Bloodrager, and Brawler builds, and even most Swashbuckler, Slayer and Ranger builds, and it's got terrible synergy with Cavalier. That leaves Fighters...which you mostly shouldn't be playing anyway.
I really wanna go slayer 6/HW X but I'm still balancing around which feat order to take. Basically choosing shield style or twf style and how/should I cram arcane strike and/or a crafting feat in there.
I'd say going to Slayer 7 before Horizon Walker is worth it. Swift Action +2 to to-hit and damage is really nice.
I wouldn't play one. Not because I care about my themes or anything, I just hate the environment, all of it.
I wouldn't play one. Not because I care about my themes or anything, I just hate the environment, all of it.
And what better way to show your hatred towards the environment than by complete and utter dominance over it? Crush it under your foot, make it your slave! Only then will it begin to understand your unquenchable wrath.
Horizonwalker has a decent 3rd level ability, but it is only useable three times per day and requires a huge feat investment, a massive skill investment, a loss of 3 levels worth of favored class bonus, and a 3 level delay in class features to gain full base attack, 6+int skills and a 3/day ability that will most likely be "too awesome to use" because you want to use those abilities when they are most important.
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Well, I know I would be asking my players how the hell is he getting Terran mastery over the astral plane if he has never been there and has no way to travel there.
Fun for theory but I couldn't see many of the people I play with as well letting that fly.
How does your sorcerer player just "get" spells at a new level he has never seen or read?
How does the ninja player become invisible if he's never seen it done or been taught by anyone?
How does the 1st level ranger pick Giants or dragons as a favored enemy when he could never have survived a fight against one long enough to learn those kinds of things about them?
Horizonwalker has a decent 3rd level ability, but it is only useable three times per day and requires a huge feat investment, a massive skill investment, a loss of 3 levels worth of favored class bonus, and a 3 level delay in class features to gain full base attack, 6+int skills and a 3/day ability that will most likely be "too awesome to use" because you want to use those abilities when they are most important.
It's also not nearly as good unless you have a decent amount of sneak attack… flanking with yourself is the main pay off…so that really puts it in the slayers ball park.
It's good to use with a rogue or ninja build because in addition to getting to dimensionally flank with yourself, you also pick up three levels of FULL bab instead of 3/4 BAB progression, which nets you another +1 attack…something the martials don't see because they would get it anyway.
So most of the time it's more of a pay off for the sneak attack classes.
Actually, Horizon Walker is from the APG. So it's from the core line, and you probably have it.
3. I don't even know if I have the book that class is from. I generally don't use material I lack the source for.
That seals it then. The APG was the first book I got for Pf. That means I read over this class, and completely forgot about it. It must not have appealed at all. I remember the rage prophet, and the battle herald...
So yeah, still a total pass.
Horizonwalker has a decent 3rd level ability, but it is only useable three times per day and requires a huge feat investment, a massive skill investment, a loss of 3 levels worth of favored class bonus, and a 3 level delay in class features to gain full base attack, 6+int skills and a 3/day ability that will most likely be "too awesome to use" because you want to use those abilities when they are most important.
Six ranks into a single knowledge skill is hardly a "massive" skill investment and it is 3+Wis mod times per day so for many characters that will be at least once per fight(only need 12 Wisdom, going by the standard 4 encounters per day design paradigm) and probably at least two for high wisdom characters like monks (20 wisdom is not unreasonable in the slightest to have by level 11-13). Again, you only need two feats for (superior since it can go through through defenses like a wall of force or stone, can hit flying foes and can get you onto the opposite side of an enemy so you can get flanking bonuses) pouncing, the rest are superfluous.
Horizonwalker has a decent 3rd level ability, but it is only useable three times per day and requires a huge feat investment, a massive skill investment, a loss of 3 levels worth of favored class bonus, and a 3 level delay in class features to gain full base attack, 6+int skills and a 3/day ability that will most likely be "too awesome to use" because you want to use those abilities when they are most important.It's also not nearly as good unless you have a decent amount of sneak attack… flanking with yourself is the main pay off…so that really puts it in the slayers ball park.
It's good to use with a rogue or ninja build because in addition to getting to dimensionally flank with yourself, you also pick up three levels of FULL bab instead of 3/4 BAB progression, which nets you another +1 attack…something the martials don't see because they would get it anyway.
So most of the time it's more of a pay off for the sneak attack classes.
Sneak attackers do get great mileage from it, but I personally prefer it on monks (who admittedly can pick up the feat line 4 levels later by going straight monk) and swashbucklers because their fluff indicates that they should be effective mobile combatants when they really, really aren't (although MoMS does mitigate that if you run panther and snake styles at the same time, but then you're giving up on flurrying and enemies don't have to take their attacks of opportunity against you, especially after noticing that doing so gets them smacked twice, which can potentially lessen its effectiveness) and these feats make it possible for them to be mobile without resorting to just charging lanes since the whole battlefield becomes fair game.
Another fun visualization is of barbarians using the feats to tear holes in reality via an augmented spell sunder and jumping through the holes to get to their enemies.
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Dimensional dervish is a trap. It looks really cool, but it's always going to be extremely limited times per day and there are better ways to get to hop and standard, such as quicken blessing on a warpriest.
Also it requires you to pick the most useless terrain possible for dominance, the astral plane.
Although, I just noticed the effects of Desert Dominance. Immunity to Fatigue for a three level dip that has full BAB and no movement penalties is pretty attractive for a Barbarian.
I tried making this but I just can't find a concept that supports Astral Terrain for fighter. I mean why would I have that? Sure it's cool but how to put that into my character background?
I tried making this but I just can't find a concept that supports Astral Terrain for fighter. I mean why would I have that? Sure it's cool but how to put that into my character background?
Lore Warden philosopher/astronomer works fairly well, contemplating the big questions in life while studying the universe on the cosmic scale has given him great insight to the workings of the astral plane, thus terrain dominance.
I should point out that the Horizon Walker's desert dominance is a way to gain immunity to both fatigue and exhaustion, along with 10 points of fire resistance, for your barbarian. I don't know if it is worth 3 levels of barbarian, but for some concepts it is definitely viable.
I should point out that the Horizon Walker's desert dominance is a way to gain immunity to both fatigue and exhaustion, along with 10 points of fire resistance, for your barbarian. I don't know if it is worth 3 levels of barbarian, but for some concepts it is definitely viable.It's... not useless, but generally worse than the Oracle dip.
Walker delays abilities three levels, and grants fatigue/exhaustion immunity and fire resistance 10. Can be taken from levels 7-10 at the earliest and requires a nigh-useless feat.
Oracle can't kick in until level 9, but only costs 1 BAB and a one-level delay on abilities instead of three. You can get a Revelation at the cost of 10' to your speed, otherwise just take Metal and Dance of the Blades for your speed to stay the same. Also, if your Cha is at least 11 you gain a handful of spells, and you can wand/scroll spam if need be.
Oracle strikes me as much better. Only a one-level delay, and the lost BAB can be easily offset by just taking Weapon Focus-- after all you have one more open feat slot. And it kicks in sooner to boot.
You get fatigue immunity at 9th, same level as the oracle. You could still get rage cycling at 8th though if you had Roused Anger since you get immunity to exhaustion before fatigue immunity but that's mediocre at best. Horizon Walker isn't the best option for rage cycling overall but it doesn't take away from BAB unlike the oracle dip so abilities that rely on your total BAB like Power Attack aren't shunted back a level plus you get more skills per level that way too. Those aren't great sellings point, but it's still something.
Likewise, Endurance is a bad feat, but it is a prereq for a couple of nice feat chains like the Deathless line and (Improved) Stalwart so it's not like it's guaranteed to be a completely wasted feat slot either.
I think Dimensional Dervish/Savant only works if you build a character around flanking with himself and then it only comes online at fairly high levels.
By the time you get the feat chain working completely, you should be able to afford a wisdom boosting magic item to get the uses per day up to 6 to 8. That's enough to use it 2-3 times per fight.
It's really cool though, so that should count for something.