In case people don't know, Horizon Walker is a full BAB prestige class with very easy entry requirements and at third level has the option of giving you dimension door as a spell-like ability or a host of other good things. This opens up access to the Dimensional Dervish feat line, which is a very powerful feat line for martial characters, especially when you add in Dimensional Savant and/or Dimensional Maneuvers to make it even better.
This feat chain makes the rogue not suck since he can flank with himself, lets the monk actually get the full Dimensional Agility feat family without retraining any of his other feats, lets melee fighters be a threat against flying foes and enemies behind walls or difficult terrain, lets the barbarian choose something besides beast totem, keeps certain combat maneuvers relevant for longer and lets archers bypass cover and wind walls. Coupled with the fact Horizon Walker will also grant you a second favored terrain that isn't space and comes on a full BAB, 6+int with solid class skills chassis, why wouldn't you dip into it? Note: Responses are free to be as straightforward or silly as you want, I promise I won't mind which way the thread turns :)
| 27 people marked this as a favorite. |
Because it doesn't fit my character concept.
Agoraphobia.
Dimensional feat chain not allowed.
Concept +1.
No room for it due to other nifty feats or features.
Low or worse wisdom bringing uses per day to too few.
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
It may not make sense for your character's background and personality, but if you want mechanical reasons...
Because. . . a 3-level dip for a 3/day ability that requires a particular feat to access, 6-points in a rarely used skill, and then 3-4 other feats to use to its full potential. . .
Sure you can make a character that uses it, but you're basically building the character around this ability instead of adding this ability to another class.
Depends on the class. Some suck so hard that this is definitely a mechanical improvement.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Depends on the class. Some suck so hard that this is definitely a mechanical improvement.
True, but then the optimization answer is to pick a better base class in the first place.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
You raise a valid point.
As far as character concept goes, refluffing does wonders. Don't like how the Dimensional Dervish feat tree inherently makes the character themself more magical? He's activating a magic item that he has instead. Don't like how it causes a teleportation effect? You only need to travel 5 feet in between teleport, you can easily refluff it as him just running around, concentrating extra hard not to be hit and that's why he isn't provoking attacks of opportunity. Don't like how choosing to gain terrain dominance in the Astral Plane means your character has strong ties to planes other than the Material Plane? Even without access to dimension door Horizon Walker is a solid class, you can simply choose a different terrain to gain dominance in.
The point is very much valid, but at the same time it isn't hard to integrate it into the character concept, regardless of what it might be.
As far not worth it goes and "giving up" three levels of your class, I'll disagree for the most part unless you have a low wisdom score and still feel the need to go astral instead of a different terrain. You're still full BAB, you are probably getting more skill ranks than you did before, you're likely to get some use out of your second favored terrain and unless you have an incredibly feat intensive fighting style it isn't that hard to add in two feats to pounce (three for mobile full attacking might be harder for classes that don't get bonus feats and 4-5 to finish everything off does mean that you'll have to devote a notable part of your build for one very good trick). And again, the class is strong enough by itself to take levels in even without Astral terrain dominance and the Dimensional Assault feat family so I don't see it as "losing levels" in your main class, just as simply taking levels in a second class.
Depends on the class. Some suck so hard that this is definitely a mechanical improvement.True, but then the optimization answer is to pick a better base class in the first place.
Unless of course there isn't that possibility to start with. A slayer may be a better rogue, but they're still going to have a hard time getting sneak attacks off, Dimensional Savant helps mitigate that.
|
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
As far not worth it goes and "giving up" three levels of your class, I'll disagree for the most part unless you have a low wisdom score and still feel the need to go astral instead of a different terrain. You're still full BAB, you are probably getting more skill ranks than you did before, you're likely to get some use out of your second favored terrain and unless you have an incredibly feat intensive fighting style it isn't that hard to add in two feats to pounce
Four feats:
1. Endurance2. Dimensional Agility
3. Dimensional Assault
4. Dimensional Dervish
And again, the class is strong enough by itself to take levels in even without Astral terrain dominance and the Dimensional Assault feat family so I don't see it as "losing levels" in your main class, just as simply taking levels in a second class.
Let's go to your initial examples:
This feat chain makes the rogue not suck since he can flank with himself,
Also requires a 5th feat, Dimensional Savant. Gives up 1 1/2 sneak attack dice.
lets the monk actually get the full Dimensional Agility feat family without retraining any of his other feats,
Assuming he takes all the feats as soon as he can he'll still not be able to get this until 13th level (Agility at 9th when he gets Dim Door, Assault at 11, Dervish at 13.) Gives up 3/4 of a monk bonus feat, 3/4 of a damage die increase, 3/4 of an AC point, 1 1/2 Ki Points, 3 levels of flurry increase, 10 feet of movement, and 3 levels behind on abilities like Diamond Body.
lets melee fighters be a threat against flying foes and enemies behind walls or difficult terrain,
Leaving aside the fact that you should have some way of temporarily flying by 9th level anyway, the fighter gives up: 3/4 of his Armor Training Progression, 3/4 of Weapon Training Progression, and 1 1/2 Bonus feats.
lets the barbarian choose something besides beast totem
Assuming Beast Totem is "required" this barbarian is: giving up the AC increase from Beast Totem, 1 point of DR/-, and is 3 levels behind on Greater/Tireless/Mighty Rage
All this is in addition to the feat requirements. Like I said, you can build a character with this class (I love Prestige Classes for the Prestige part) but it's not a "no-brainer."
lets melee fighters be a threat against flying foes and enemies behind walls or difficult terrain,Leaving aside the fact that you should have some way of temporarily flying by 9th level anyway, the fighter gives up: 3/4 of his Armor Training Progression, 3/4 of Weapon Training Progression, and 1 1/2 Bonus feats.
In order to pounce, or if he felt more inclined, to move about freely, including hopping inside an enemy caster's prismatic sphere or getting to the other side of a wall of force blocking a tunnel, I think giving up a couple of feats is worthwhile especially when as a fighter you usually have feats to spare. Also helps you escape grapples and lets archers bypass cover for what those are worth.
lets the barbarian choose something besides beast totemAssuming Beast Totem is "required" this barbarian is: giving up the AC increase from Beast Totem, 1 point of DR/-, and is 3 levels behind on Greater/Tireless/Mighty Rage
I wouldn't go so far as to say that beast totem is required either (I didn't use it for AM SKILLMONKEY) but the majority of barbarians tend to default to Superstition, Beast Totem and Come and Get Me since they are notably stronger than many other rage powers. Dragon Totem is solid and Lesser Celestial Totem is exploitable as hell but other than that not much comes close (although Cornugon Smash+Combat Reflexes+Come and Get Me+Terrifying Howl is a fun combo). Speaking of Horizon Walker and barbarian, you could pick up the desert terrain dominance for fatigue immunity instead (although dipping one level in lame curse oracle would give you the same benefit and at the same level, would cost you a BAB though for dipping oracle so there is that) if you wanted.
Because dropping 3 levels and 5 Feats isn't worth it for the vast majority of characters?
Again "dropping" levels on martial characters really isn't a thing if you're going into a full BAB class that offers something every level, "shifting focus" is more appropriate. And "shifting focus" can be refluffed to not being shifted at all. Also, I'd say it's definitely worth it for brawlers and fighters since they have the feats for it, rogues because if you're going to play them you might as well have reliable sneak attack usage, slayers because the trade off between delaying abilities and getting reliable sneak attack usage is good enough, and swashbucklers and most monks (far strike, sohei, and zen archer excluded) because it makes them actually competent at being the mobile fighters that they should be.
|
Too many Pathfinder classes get increased uses out of levels to warrant dipping 3 levels unless those three levels really give you something. Spending those extra feats also cripples your feat progression.
Paladins lose out on smite damage, lay on hands dice and uses, and auras. Barbarians lose out on rage powers, rage rounds, and DR. Fighters miss out on armor/weapon training increases, feats, and whatever they trade bravery out for. Rogues lose out on sneak attack progression, advanced rogue talents, and don't have bonus feats to back them up either.
Again "dropping" levels on martial characters really isn't a thing if you're going into a full BAB class that offers something every level, "shifting focus" is more appropriate. And "shifting focus" can be refluffed to not being shifted at all. Also, I'd say it's definitely worth it for brawlers and fighters since they have the feats for it, rogues because if you're going to play them you might as well have reliable sneak attack usage, slayers because the trade off between delaying abilities and getting reliable sneak attack usage is good enough, and swashbucklers and most monks (far strike, sohei, and zen archer excluded) because it makes them actually competent at being the mobile fighters that they should be.
Brawler and Monk can, instead drop a mere two Feats on Pummeling Charge instead, so that benefit is gone.
Fighters are barely a class anyway, so point there.
Rogues don't really have the Feats for it. Rather than dropping 5 Feats (culminating at 15th at the earliest, since you don't qualify for Dimensional Agility until 9th at least), you'd be better served just being a Ninja and getting Greater Invisibility as a Swift for reliable Sneak Attack.
Again "dropping" levels on martial characters really isn't a thing if you're going into a full BAB class that offers something every level, "shifting focus" is more appropriate. And "shifting focus" can be refluffed to not being shifted at all. Also, I'd say it's definitely worth it for brawlers and fighters since they have the feats for it, rogues because if you're going to play them you might as well have reliable sneak attack usage, slayers because the trade off between delaying abilities and getting reliable sneak attack usage is good enough, and swashbucklers and most monks (far strike, sohei, and zen archer excluded) because it makes them actually competent at being the mobile fighters that they should be.Brawler and Monk can, instead drop a mere two Feats on Pummeling Charge instead, so that benefit is gone.
Fighters are barely a class anyway, so point there.
Rogues don't really have the Feats for it. Rather than dropping 5 Feats (culminating at 15th at the earliest, since you don't qualify for Dimensional Agility until 9th at least), you'd be better served just being a Ninja and getting Greater Invisibility as a Swift for reliable Sneak Attack.
Brawler and monk still have to deal with difficult terrain and if there isn't a clear charging lane can't get off a full attack. Dimensional Assault solves both issues and only costs two feats as well. However, the third feat is nice for letting a monk actually be mobile (running in straight lines =/= mobile).
As far as rogues go, they too only really need the first two feats, you could dimension door onto the opposite side of an enemy that an ally is attacking to set up flanking for yourself that way. Even just doing that makes flanking substantially easier.
Well if we're dropping an equal number of Feats, you pick up Dragon Style/Ferocity as well, and laugh at difficult terrain, plus enjoy 2x/1.5x Str to damage in addition.
Combine with Combat Style Master and you have the same 5 Feats, but all of them do more for you, an unlimited number of times per day.
1. I don't "dip". I make single class characters whenever possible.
2. Especially in the case of martial characters, I don't often want to give up their top/best class abilities.
3. I don't even know if I have the book that class is from. I generally don't use material I lack the source for.
4. Dimension door and Dimensional dervish are fun abilities, but not that useful for me.
Did this with an Android Gunslinger of mine. Horizon Walker for Dimensional feat chain. Worked pretty well actually.
Horizon Walker has always been a good prc but for some reason, most people avoids it like the plague. I have only seen a horizon walker npc so far, and I literally mean one, since I started playing.
I'd love to use it but I hate how the "Favored Terrain as Favored Enemy" aspect of Terrain Dominance works. How do you define "native?" Native as in this particular goblin has lived in these hills all his life or native as in what the bestiary says creature type X can be found? Each has stupid ramifications. It's just such a clunky mechanic. Kinda wish it had just been something simpler like maybe 1/2 or 1/3 favored terrain bonus against all enemies while you are in that terrain.
|
Horizon Walker has always been a good prc but for some reason, most people avoids it like the plague. I have only seen a horizon walker npc so far, and I literally mean one, since I started playing.I'd love to use it but I hate how the "Favored Terrain as Favored Enemy" aspect of Terrain Dominance works. How do you define "native?" Native as in this particular goblin has lived in these hills all his life or native as in what the bestiary says creature type X can be found? Each has stupid ramifications. It's just such a clunky mechanic. Kinda wish it had just been something simpler like maybe 1/2 or 1/3 favored terrain bonus against all enemies while you are in that terrain.
Bestiary entries are how I always ran it. I agree it's a clunky mechanic, but favored enemy is a clunky mechanic anyway.
One of the best things about Pathfinder was they cleaned up classes to the point of making it appealing to not multiclass. There were tons of great Horizon Walker builds in 3.5, but now there's almost always a reason to stick with your class in Pathfinder.
I don't know. Rogue 2/Ranger X/HW X is pretty ballin'. The Rogue Talent for Favored Terrain increases all previous terrains by 2, so by spending all your feats on extra Rogue Talent (well, maybe one on Power Attack) you are looking at some ridiculous plusses. Depending on how you run Terrain Dominance and on how focused in one area the campaign is, you can be looking something that will make the DM cry. There's just a lot of "ifs" there.
With Instant Enemy, it doesn't even matter what terrain your Dominance is in.
I'm not sure I follow you. I remember hearing the interpretation that Instant Enemy makes the target count as being native to the same terrains as the chosen favored enemy type. Another interpretation being that "creatures from X" was a valid favored enemy type for the spell... both seemed pretty iffy to me.
|
|
Select one of your favored enemy types. For the duration of the spell, you treat the target as if it were that type of favored enemy for all purposes.
Terrain Dominance grants you Favored Enemy against everything native to that terrain. You treat the target of the spell as that type of favored enemy.
Horizon Walker has always been a good prc but for some reason, most people avoids it like the plague. I have only seen a horizon walker npc so far, and I literally mean one, since I started playing.
The only horizon walker I've ever seen was my character in Skulls and Shackles. Bard 8 HZW 3. If we ever finish that campaign I think I'll take levels in Sublime Chord.
Only my NPCs use Prestige Classes, the players and GM haven't touched PrC since 3x, generally remaining single class. Also all our games are homebrewed, and there's less of a need to optimize in order to survive encounters. If we were playing standard APs, it might prove best to find every little combat advantage possible, but since we don't our games are built for our specific group, and perhaps somewhat less deadly that other games. I just don't need horizon walker, ever.
3. I don't even know if I have the book that class is from. I generally don't use material I lack the source for.
Actually, Horizon Walker is from the APG. So it's from the core line, and you probably have it.
Well if we're dropping an equal number of Feats, you pick up Dragon Style/Ferocity as well, and laugh at difficult terrain, plus enjoy 2x/1.5x Str to damage in addition.
Combine with Combat Style Master and you have the same 5 Feats, but all of them do more for you, an unlimited number of times per day.
only if you dip moms or have dragon tiger ox, bit still very very true.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Everybody should have Dragon Tiger Ox. =)
| 3 people marked this as a favorite. |
I like to dip 17 levels of cleric so that I can cast Miracle.
Because the Wizard in the party memorizes Dimension Door and I would rather raise my offense or defense at that level than try to keep up with full casters in the mobility department?
Everybody should have Dragon Tiger Ox. =)
not true at all...only if they play pathfinder ;p
|
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
Why not waste fighter levels on Horizon Walker?
Because I'm not the damn ranger.
I'm a fighter. All I want in my life is to take my greatsword and chop every single jackass wizard-who-did-it into dog chow. Or get my big-assed crossbow out and shoot some spellcaster through the neck as he's shouting those moronic prayers of his. Or beat a dragon to death with my bare hands.
I don't need to steal the ranger's playbook here, I just want to deal out the damage and take the hits like a champ.
So to those of you who say "But... but you can ethereal jaunt and Dimensional Savant!! ;_;" I say in response, "GNOME!! Fetch hither that jetpack you cobbled together from two barrels, my spare crossbows, and all those alchemist's fires we bought the other day."
>Crossbow
lel
Well, I know I would be asking my players how the hell is he getting Terran mastery over the astral plane if he has never been there and has no way to travel there.
Fun for theory but I couldn't see many of the people I play with as well letting that fly.
Guns cost precious feat slots, you know. >=(>Crossbow
lel
Unless you're a Gunslinger, guns are even more lel, since they're crossbows that blow up in your hands on occasion.
Use a bow, mate, not a crossbow or Alchemist's Fire, neither of which will do more than tickle the vast majority of things.
Here's another problem: If you take Astral Dominance to get Dimension Door, doesn't that ability work ONLY in the Astral Plane? The description of Terrain Mastery says that its abilities work in other terrains, but the description of Terrain Dominance does not say this for its abilities.
Well if we're dropping an equal number of Feats, you pick up Dragon Style/Ferocity as well, and laugh at difficult terrain, plus enjoy 2x/1.5x Str to damage in addition.
Combine with Combat Style Master and you have the same 5 Feats, but all of them do more for you, an unlimited number of times per day.
I wouldn't go as far as to say that they do more for you, they're certainly helpful but are harder to capitalize on. If you can't get a clear charging lane you're still missing out on full attacks, and even if you can get in a charge, you might not be able to charge the most significant threat. Teleporting to where you're actually needed and not being locked into unarmed (and therefore expensive to enchant) combat are significant boons in and of themselves. Another option is that you can capitalize on something like Cornugon Smash with a Cruel weapon (maybe add in Riving Strike too for fun) easier since it can let you spread the pain to multiple foes quickly so that your caster can enjoy a -4 (or -6) to several target's saves. That's a solid way to help shut down the opposition faster than full attacking individual critters, especially if you can get over to debuff the casters instead of the melee folk.
I really wanna go slayer 6/HW X but I'm still balancing around which feat order to take. Basically choosing shield style or twf style and how/should I cram arcane strike and/or a crafting feat in there.
I really wanna go slayer 6/HW X but I'm still balancing around which feat order to take. Basically choosing shield style or twf style and how/should I cram arcane strike and/or a crafting feat in there.
Shield style is mechanically stronger, especially since you can get the Shield Master feat 5 levels early by choosing that style. Technically speaking, two-shield fighting with spiked bashing heavy shields is the best way to go since you get to cancel out the -4 to-hit for using two one handed weapons and they both hit for 2d6 damage.