Tomorrow I'm going to try not to TPK the party with an ambush scenario involving draconic sorcerers.
The scenario will hopefully unfold something like this: the PCs walk into an ambush, four 10th-level Draconic Sorcerers invisibly hidden in the trees around a path through the forest. One casts stinking cloud, another casts black tentacles, and the last two unleash a 10d6 acid breath weapon.
My question is this: Assuming the black tentacles' grapple check surpasses the CMD of each player, do they get a reflex save to dodge the breath weapon if they are nauseated and also grappled? Even if the grapple fails, do they get a save?
Grappeled creatures can still make a reflex save, although their dex is reduced by 4. Nauseated has no effects on saves.
Thank you very much!
For added background, are the draconic sorcerers out for blood or do they have other motivations? The OP seems to want to make a scenario to challenge, yet does not want to outright kill.
Would the sorcerers want information, or be placated by taking a McGuffin item from the PCs?
The PCs were given a choice of alliance between two viciously feuding groups: a faction of tribal centaurs and a faction of savage elves. I'm running a half-homebrewed version of the Kingmaker adventure path, and this is one of the key plot points. The PCs meant to extend their kingdom into the southern Narlmarches, and while exploring a hex they came across the result of a handful of these sorcerers ambushing a troop of centaurs. Total bloodbath, but one of each faction were still barely alive. They chose to side with the centaurs, and so the elves now view them as a mortal enemy. Out of game, one of the players wants his character killed off to make room for a new one, so I set up this scenario to accomplish that as well as make a show of force to the party. They should know that things are about to get real serious, and that death is now much more of a present danger, but I'd prefer not to obliterate them all in the process.
So I guess to answer your question, they're kind of out for blood, but mostly want to test the strength of their new enemies.
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Testing strength is good, but I'll say 99.9999999999999999999% of the time a TPK is not what ANYONE wants. It sucks for the party, it sucks for the GM (your campaign is pretty much toast if everyone dies at once, without some serious asspulling), it's just bad. I'd strive to avoid it whenever possible.
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To be honest, the information is lacking. You didn't mention what level are your PCs at the moment. 4x lv10 sorcerers are CR 13 encounter. Check the gamemastery tables and compare with their APL if it's within the limits of challenge. CR +4 ambush is for example pure TPK. TPKs are bad thing in general. Nobody likes them, they slow down your GM plans and plots, delete stories and quests, and include yet more of PCs who gather around at a random tavern to go on some mysterious unknown mission. My current GM went overboard for example with one encounter recently which ended in pure TPK. Not only for us, but he also lost interest in further campaign. So TPK or not to TPK? It's safer not to but depends on your group's playstyle.
Adam
The title was kind of misleading, I beg forgiveness as this is my first venture into the world of online forums. I don't really want to TPK, considering I know about half the group will lose interest and at least one of them will flip the table and cry.
The party consists of 9 8th-level PCs, and the general idea of this encounter is not to have the sorcerer enemies fight the PCs to the death, but more to kill the half-orc ranger that wants to die (conveniently placed 40 or so feet ahead of the party, scouting the trail) and show the rest of them that these elves mean business. Once the ranger dies the elves will retreat, so the prospect of a TPK is not really in the cards.
I was mostly wondering if throwing in the breath weapon directed at the rest of the party was a bad idea, or if they could stand to lose around half their HP in a surprise round.
***Keep in mind there will be two breath weapons for a total of 20d6 acid damage if I do throw this at the party, and that up until the stinking cloud is cast, the sorcerers will be hidden in the trees, having cast invisibility on themselves. Standing still, that's a +40 to stealth. The PCs will have a chance to roll a nat 20 on a perception check, of course, but whether any of them will is another matter.
With 9 8th level characters they would be able to hand this pretty easily. I am not saying nobody will die since ambushes can give the enemy a good jump, but I dont see a TPK coming.
PS: I am assuming average to good players. If your players are not serious players or they tend to make bad decisions you may need to adjust accordingly.
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It's a mix of tabletop veterans and complete noobs, with noobs being the majority. Usually the experienced players keep the new ones from doing anything too utterly stupid, but even they can't plan for everything.
There's a cleric and I think he just bought a scroll of resurrection, I just hope he doesn't try to rez the character that was supposed to die lol
Well then perhaps I should make the elves carry the ranger away rather than kill him right there, unless reducing his remains to a puddle of goo via acid is enough to forestall resurrection...
remember, people can CHOOSE to be resurrected or not. The rangers character may not WANT to leave the afterlife he's in. If you want, let the cleric's god look at him and say "Oh, you guys.... just this once, have it back." That way, they'll use the Rez scroll but not lose it. Even have the Ranger Player roleplay the "Thanks for the adventure, but I'm going to go hang out with my Dad that died when I was a kid..." It could be a cool moment for even the Veterans to "Ooh" and "Aah" about.
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If they dont spot the trap and are not paranoid they are pretty screwed. In cases of difficult or very diffucult encounter its a good idea to give different ways for players to succeed in a encounter and obviously have an scape route avilable, worst case scenario they can retreat thats also an options, not very heroic but its good way to show players they are not supermen
The general scenario is supposed to play out a certain way, namely that the PCs get to catch a glimpse of a cloud of noxious vapors engulfing the ranger before they get their own, then the black tentacles come up, and now it can go one of two ways:
1. All the PCs become grappled, fail to resist, take minor damage from that, possibly get hit with a breath weapon or two, and when the cloud disperses they find a puddle of acidic goo where the ranger used to be.
2. Someone escapes the grapple and doesn't immediately run for the hills, I roll low for how many rounds they remain nauseated after they leave the cloud, and IF the sorcerers are still around they die trying to be a hero.
I don't expect the players to try anything as foolish as attacking these enemies, since they have a minimum of two rounds of nausea after they escape the cloud, even if they escape the tentacles.
Either way it goes, they aren't meant to actually fight the enemies in this particular encounter. If they all fail to resist the grapple and get stuck in the cloud then ten rounds will have to pass before those spells end, plenty of time for the sorcerers to cast expeditious retreat, fly and invisibility on themselves and vanish without a trace.
You know, that's not a bad idea.
Another guy on the giant in the playground forums made the same point. I may end up just running the whole thing as a cinematic, at least in part, and follow Uwotm8's advice for the end of it.
That was my thought: what is your fall-back position if things do go South? Uwotm8's post would be a good idea! They get to have the experience, but not need to start over. (Your friend who wants to die-by-monster/encounter can be handled really any time later.)
Well if everything goes according to plan, the PCs will be tricked into believing they were somehow ambushed by a green dragon (I thought about making one of the sorcerers cast ghost sound mimicking the roar of one). If they fail the will save to disbelieve the ruse, all they will see is the stinking cloud, all they'll hear is the roar, and all they'll feel is the acid damage.
That's the best case scenario, but if things do go south and anyone doesn't become totally incapacitated by a surprise round, I suppose I can let a fight play out. Make it so one of the sorcerers gets caught and has to fight, and if they kill him they will get some nice items off his corpse. He won't be taken alive, and if that happens he won't give up any information and will constantly try to escape their custody. Eventually he'll succeed if they don't outright kill him first.
I should probably also mention that the player whose character is scheduled to die is coming back with his own draconic sorcerer, leveled up to 8 as the rest of the party is. He'll be introduced shortly after this encounter ends. This should give them a distinct advantage against these enemies in the future, even if it's just an "I know how sorcerers operate better than you do, I can help" from the new guy.
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The PCs will have a chance to roll a nat 20 on a perception check, of course, but whether any of them will is another matter.
Nat 20 isn't an auto-pass with skill checks.
Of note though - how do the sorcerors know exactly where the group is going to be? Were they scouting them before? Scrying? The group may have noticed the previous scouting and be prepared.
I don't expect the players to try anything as foolish as attacking these enemies, since they have a minimum of two rounds of nausea after they escape the cloud, even if they escape the tentacles.
Players will always do what you don't expect. Also, only those that fail their saves are nauseated by the cloud. Even without any special abilities or equipment to help them I would expect one or two of your PCs to be quickly out of the tentacles and not nauseated.
Ah I overlooked that they get a Fort save to negate nausea. Looks like I may have to have one of them cast fear as well.
As for how the sorcerers are aware of the PCs' approach, I was going to hook them into the encounter by having them investigate an ambushed border fort of theirs near the encounter site, and follow a trail left behind by the elves. As part of their tactics, the elves cast arcane eye with some regularity to scout around their positions. In this case, they've planned the ambush and would be monitoring the trail they left behind, as well as immediate surroundings
Here's the statblock, tell me if you think it looks right/needs anything.
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Dar’Eivese (Dragon of the Green Star)
Feral Elf Sorcerer 10
NE Medium Humanoid (elf)
Init: +10; Senses: low-light vision;
Perception +16
Defense
AC 23; Touch 17; Flat-Footed 19; (+3 armor, +4 Dex, +3 natural, +3 deflection)
HP: 70 (10d6+10)
Fort +4; Ref +7; Will +10
resist acid 10
Offense
Speed: 30’ (6 squares)
Melee: Claw; +9 atk, 1d6 plus 1d6 acid, x2
+3 keen wounding sickle; +12 atk, 1d6+3 plus 1 bleed, 19-20/x2
Ranged: Breath Weapon; 10d6 acid, 30-foot cone, Reflex DC 20 half
Special Attacks
Claws 8 rounds/day
Breath Weapon 1/day
Black Tentacles: grapple CMB +15 initial, +20 to maintain; 1d6+4, CMD 25
Spells Known/Prepared (CL 10)
5th (4/day, DC 20)— dominate person
4th (6/day, DC 19)— confusion, black tentacles, arcane eye
3rd (7/day, DC 18)— slow, haste, stinking cloud, fly
2nd (7/day, DC 17)— invisibility, spider climb, hideous laughter, mirror image
1st (8/day, DC 16)— expeditious retreat, mage armor, true strike, color spray, alarm
0 (at will, DC 15)— detect magic, daze, dancing lights, ghost sound, read magic, light, prestidigitation
Statistics
Str 10 (+0)
Dex 18 (+4)
Con 12(+1)
Int 17 (+3)
Wis 17 (+3)
Cha 20 (+5)
Base Atk: +5; CMB: +4; CMD: 18
Feats: Run, Improved Initiative, Combat Casting, Spell Penetration, Weapon Finesse, Skill Focus (Stealth), Noxious Strike*
Skills: Appraise +3, Bluff +18, Climb +14, Fly +17, Intimidate +5, Knowledge (arcana) +3, Perception +16, Spellcraft +4, Stealth +20, Use Magic Device +5
Combat Gear
Ring of protection +3, amulet of natural armor +1, bracers of armor +3, +3 keen wounding sickle
*Noxious Strike is a modified Noxious Bite feat that I made because I wanted these guys to do acid damage with their claw attacks.
The items are mostly for loot if the PCs manage to kill one, because I know for a fact that those AC buffing items still don't stand a chance against some of the DPS tanks the party has among them. The sickle I threw in in case it came down to melee, so they could cause some nasty hits before being one-shot killed by the scythe-wielding barbarian in the party lol
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They should have some wands, scrolls and potions, but if this is the part which you wish to avoid, I can understand that. It requires a lot of web shuffling to check the right gear for NPCs. The keen wounding +3 sickle does go over the WBL by far though and doesn't seem very appropriate item for them.
I don't really want to TPK, considering I know about half the group will lose interest and at least one of them will flip the table and cry.
I'd be inclined to TPK just to see someone flip the table over and cry...
Make the sorcerers cross blooded orc and draconic (fire) so they get +2 damage per die of spell damage. Have all four of the 10th level sorcerers cast fireball for 10d6+20 damage times 4, for about 220 to 110 total damage. That should kill off all the 9th level PCs in a 20' radius. GM wins again!
I think this is a bad idea.
If one of your players wants to play a different character just let it happen. Do not try to make it seem more real by altering probability in combat. There is so much potential for it to go wrong and really no upside. How is it more cinematic for it to happen on a contrived set up than to happen with no dice rolls?
I wouldn't be so quick to assume an ambush. Invisibility is only +20 to stealth. Most 8th level parties sport at least one character with more than +20 to perception. 4 stealth rolls all have to beat 9 perception checks. Ambushes start to require handwaving of the actual rules once the number of combatants goes over 10 on all sides, the math says the odds start to get very low.
Why is the ranger wanting to play a sorcerer a big secret? This seems odd to me.
Well, to update, the whole thing went off without a hitch, and I didn't have to fudge any rolls to make it do so. Only five players attended tonight, a record low for this particular game. People who passed their Fort saves failed against the grapple and vice versa, and the ranger actually took massive damage from one of the breath weapons that hit him and failed to save against instant death. The only thing that almost went awry was the druid's animal companion almost dying, but the spells ended before that happened anyhow.
So, bad idea or not, the whole thing went the best way it could have gone.
Sounds like the ranger was the only one to die, yeah (I assume you meant to say ranger).
Out of game, one of the players wants his character killed off to make room for a new one, so I set up this scenario to accomplish that
Why should the other players risk death for him? Just have his PC ride off into the sunset.
My player wanted to do it a certain way, and since I tend to be a rigid bastard with my games I make it a point to indulge my players on occasion, when they come to me with what I deem a reasonable request. He asked to be killed in a way that intermingled with the plot, so I indulged him. As I suspected, the other players were too busy trying to not freak out to attempt to help him (to the point where the druid almost lost his own animal companion for fear of losing his own life, literally ran out of the cloud once he got un-grappled and left his poor megaloceros to die lol), and the enemies had more than enough time to escape unseen before the other PCs could have a chance to attempt a fight with them.
It could have gone much worse for everyone, but I took the temperature around the table and found that those present last night wouldn't have had a problem rolling up a new character and continuing where their old one left off, and that includes the guy I thought would flip the table and cry lol
OK. But it's a little cheesy to play thru level 8 as a martial then switch to a full spellcaster, as then you get to skip over playing on "hard mode" as a spellcaster.