Titan Fighter And Bastard Swords

[stoolpigeon87]

So I know bastard swords are frequently confusing. I thought I understood them pretty well. They are 2-handed for all purposes except they can be held one-handed if you have EWP: Bastard Swords. And I know you can wield a Large Bastard Sword Two Handed if you have EWP Bastard Sword, albeit at a -2 penalty.

What happens if you combine this with Titan Fighter and her level 1 class feature.

"Giant Weapon Wielder (Ex)

At 1st level, a titan fighter can wield two-handed melee weapons intended for creatures one size category larger than himself, treating them as two-handed weapons. He takes an additional –2 penalty on attack rolls when using an over-sized two-handed weapon.

This ability replaces the fighter's 1st level bonus feat."

1) Can a player wield a Huge Bastard Sword if he has EWP?

2) If not, does this even interact at all with Bastard Sword? If I look too hard at it it seems to do actually give you MORE penalties to a character wielding an oversized Bastard Sword.

Addendum:

What about a player who is Fighter Titan Fighter 1/Barbarian Titan Mauler 2? Can he then use a Huge Bastard Sword?

[Sniggevert]

A Bastard Sword is a ONE-handed weapon for all intents and purposes, that has a special rule that allows you to wield it with greater ease in two hands. So, it would not work with the Giant Weapon Wielder ability.

[Dread Knight]

1) No it states for creatures one size category larger so if you're Medium it only covers Large weapons

2) Nope the Bastard Sword is a one-handed weapon and the Titan Fighter's class abilities only work with two-handed one size category larger weapons.

It wouldn't be a bad house rule to allow this but about the only way to be able to use something like a Huge Bastard Sword in the current Pathfinder(Paizo) rules would to be a Tiefling with Over Sized Limbs variant ability. You could also use Third Party or 3.5 Feats and Classes.

[Kchaka]

A bastard sword is like a bigger version of the longsword with something special. Unlike other one handed weapons you can use without proficiency with -4 penaly to attack, you can't even wield a bastard sword in one hand without weapon proficiency with it.

In 3.5, the Fullblade (2d8,19-20x2) was the two-handed version of the bastard sword. Likewise, you couldn't even wield it without weapon proficiency. Maybe this is what you are looking for.

[Nefreet]

As others have said, it's a one-handed weapon, so no dice.

[CWheezy]

Man, why are titan fighters so sad? It would be nice if they were more fun instead of being so limited

[A_psychic_rat]

well actually you can always wield 1 one handed weapon thats over sized for you, you just take the oversized weapon penalty, and it shifts up to being a two handed weapon.

so a medium creature with EWP bastard sword could always wield a large sized bastard sword its just forcibly 2 handed by rules as well taking a -2 to hit for being one size to big for the medium creature and the titan fighter doesnt change that.

what the titan fighter does do is decrease this oversized weapon penalty after a point.

[A_psychic_rat]

Quote:

Every weapon has a size category. This designation indicates the size of the creature for which the weapon was designed.

A weapon's size category isn't the same as its size as an object. Instead, a weapon's size category is keyed to the size of the intended wielder. In general, a light weapon is an object two size categories smaller than the wielder, a one-handed weapon is an object one size category smaller than the wielder, and a two-handed weapon is an object of the same size category as the wielder.

Inappropriately Sized Weapons: A creature can't make optimum use of a weapon that isn't properly sized for it. A cumulative –2 penalty applies on attack rolls for each size category of difference between the size of its intended wielder and the size of its actual wielder. If the creature isn't proficient with the weapon, a –4 nonproficiency penalty also applies.

The measure of how much effort it takes to use a weapon (whether the weapon is designated as a light, one-handed, or two-handed weapon for a particular wielder) is altered by one step for each size category of difference between the wielder's size and the size of the creature for which the weapon was designed. For example, a Small creature would wield a Medium one-handed weapon as a two-handed weapon. If a weapon's designation would be changed to something other than light, one-handed, or two-handed by this alteration, the creature can't wield the weapon at all.

Here is the relivent text to the situation

[Avoron]

Well, yeah, it decreases the penalties, but their point is that the "Giant Weapon Wielder" ability doesn't let you wield a bastard sword that's larger than Large, which you could wield anyway.

[blackbloodtroll]

Does not the Bastard Sword change shape, handedness, and has it's hardness and hit points, along with how it interacts with feats and abilities, depend on how many hands touch it, but sometimes not, and sometimes yes, which varies, depending on if it's correctly sized or not, and that too is subject to change?

[Durngrun Stonebreaker]

blackbloodtroll wrote:

Does not the Bastard Sword change shape, handedness, and has it's hardness and hit points, along with how it interacts with feats and abilities, depend on how many hands touch it, but sometimes not, and sometimes yes, which varies, depending on if it's correctly sized or not, and that too is subject to change?

Only in that crazy, mixed-up head of yours.

[blackbloodtroll]

Oh?

Is a Titan Fighter wielding a Large Bastard Sword as a Large One-handed Exotic Weapon, or as a Large Two-handed Martial Weapon?

[Nefreet]

*headsplosion*

[wraithstrike]

I will answer this when I wake up. I have a RAW answer, and an RAI answer, but I want to be sure I am correct before I post anything.

[Avoron]

Change shape? No.
Change handedness? Yes.
Change hardness and hitpoints? No.
Change how it reacts with feats and abilities? Yes.
It's all explained in this FAQ. (albeit in a somewhat confusing manner)

But, as it turns out, none of this matters.

If you choose to treat it as a Large One-Handed Exotic Weapon, it is unaffected by this ability, as it only lets you wield two-handed weapons sized for a creature one category larger.

If you choose to treat it as a Large Two-Handed Martial Weapon, it is slightly affected by this ability. It allows you to wield a two-handed weapon sized for someone one category larger in two hands, but at a -2 penalty.

So, congratulations. You can now use a Large Bastard Sword in two-hands, as a two-handed weapon.

Oh wait. You could do that anyway if you took Exotic Weapon Proficiency (bastard sword).

Back to the drawing board.

[blackbloodtroll]

So, it can change, to be treated as two different weapons, without even changing how many hands are touching it?

When does a two-handed fighter gain a his Weapon Training Bonus?

What if he wields a small Bastard Sword?

Is that a Light Exotic Weapon, or a Martial One-handed Weapon?

[Avoron]

Yes, if you have exotic weapon proficiency. Because bastard swords are poorly designed, but they can make sense if you treat it as a "switching grips" sort of thing.

In this particular case, you've been trained in its use, so you can use it with less effort than a normal person. Ordinarily, it's too big for you to use the full effort to wield it, but if you have the Titan Fighter's ability, you can use it in that manner. But it literally does nothing except give you a -2 penalty on your attack rolls.

If it's a Large bastard sword being wielded by a Medium wielder, it's a two-handed weapon for them either way, so a two-handed fighter will get their bonus.

If you don't have exotic weapon proficiency, you use a small bastard sword as a one-handed weapon. If you have exotic weapon proficiency, you can choose.

This is pretty much a mess. The only thing that could make it worse would be if someone started mentioning Vestigial Arms.

[Imbicatus]

blackbloodtroll wrote:

Oh?

Is a Titan Fighter wielding a Large Bastard Sword as a Large One-handed Exotic Weapon, or as a Large Two-handed Martial Weapon?

He can wield it as a large one handed exotic weapon with a -2 penalty, or a large two handed martial weapon with a -4 penalty.

[Redneckdevil]

blackbloodtroll wrote:

Oh?

Is a Titan Fighter wielding a Large Bastard Sword as a Large One-handed Exotic Weapon, or as a Large Two-handed Martial Weapon?

Either as a large 1 handed exotic weapon or just a two handed martial weapon without the penalaty of handling a large weapon.

its not really that complicated. Its a large 1 handed exotic weapon that people can weild 2 handed without the large pebalties. Want to weild it 1 handed? Treat it as a large 1 handed weapon amd all the feats and abilities that go along with 1 handed weapons if u have the exotic feat to weild it 1 handed. Have martial feat instead? Treat it as a regular 2 handed martial weapon and all feats and abilities of 2 handed weapons goes along with it.
thats it. Just need to know if u wanna weild it 1 handed or as a 2 hander and treat it as such after u determine how ur gonna weild it.

[fretgod99]

FAQ wrote:

If you are wielding it with two hands (whether or not you have the Exotic Weapon Proficiency to wield it with one hand), it is treated as a two-handed weapon; Power Attack gets the increased damage bonus, you can use Pushing Assault or Shield of Swings (which require a two-handed weapon), and so on.

So this should work with the Bastard Sword, because it's a weirdly-adjudicated weapon.

Though it is always a one-handed exotic weapon, it counts as a two-handed weapon for the purposes of feats and class features if wielded in two hands and you need it to be treated as a two-handed weapon.

[Avoron]

Like I said, it technically works, but all it lets you do is wield a Large Bastard Sword as a two-handed weapon. You can do that anyway.

This ability has the advantage that it doesn't require Exotic Weapon Proficiency. But other than that, your just doing the same thing you could normally do for an extra -2 penalty.

[wraithstrike]

blackbloodtroll wrote:

So, it can change, to be treated as two different weapons, without even changing how many hands are touching it?

When does a two-handed fighter gain a his Weapon Training Bonus?

What if he wields a small Bastard Sword?

Is that a Light Exotic Weapon, or a Martial One-handed Weapon?

Are you really having trouble understanding how it(bastard sword) works or is this some BBT sarcasm, which I do enjoy occasionally?

[wraithstrike]

fretgod99 wrote:

FAQ wrote:

If you are wielding it with two hands (whether or not you have the Exotic Weapon Proficiency to wield it with one hand), it is treated as a two-handed weapon; Power Attack gets the increased damage bonus, you can use Pushing Assault or Shield of Swings (which require a two-handed weapon), and so on.

So this should work with the Bastard Sword, because it's a weirdly-adjudicated weapon.

Though it is always a one-handed exotic weapon, it counts as a two-handed weapon for the purposes of feats and class features if wielded in two hands and you need it to be treated as a two-handed weapon.

Well this basically sums up what I was going to say. :)

[Dread Knight]

Even with the handedness issue with the Bastard Sword it can't be done since the ability specifically states one size category larger.

[blackbloodtroll]

Could one use Sly Draw to draw a small Bastard Sword, then use the same weapon to make an AoO with Furious Focus and Power Attack?

What about a medium Bastard Sword being used to combine Swashbuckler Weapon Training and Overhand Chop?

[Avoron]

Can you shift your grip on a weapon between drawing it and attacking with it? Yes. So, yes.

Can you shift your grip on a weapon in the middle of attacking with it? No. So, no.

[blackbloodtroll]

What action is it to "shift your grip"?

What RAW supports a "grip shift" if no hands leave, or are added to a weapon?

Can this "grip shift" be done at any time?

[graystone]

blackbloodtroll wrote:

What action is it to "shift your grip"?

What RAW supports a "grip shift" if no hands leave, or are added to a weapon?

Can this "grip shift" be done at any time?

It's in the rules right next to hands of effort...

[fretgod99]

wraithstrike wrote:

fretgod99 wrote:

FAQ wrote:

If you are wielding it with two hands (whether or not you have the Exotic Weapon Proficiency to wield it with one hand), it is treated as a two-handed weapon; Power Attack gets the increased damage bonus, you can use Pushing Assault or Shield of Swings (which require a two-handed weapon), and so on.

So this should work with the Bastard Sword, because it's a weirdly-adjudicated weapon.

Though it is always a one-handed exotic weapon, it counts as a two-handed weapon for the purposes of feats and class features if wielded in two hands and you need it to be treated as a two-handed weapon.

Well this basically sums up what I was going to say. :)

I do have my moments.

[fretgod99]

blackbloodtroll wrote:

Could one use Sly Draw to draw a small Bastard Sword, then use the same weapon to make an AoO with Furious Focus and Power Attack?

What about a medium Bastard Sword being used to combine Swashbuckler Weapon Training and Overhand Chop?

I think it's most sensible to assume that you cannot treat a BS as both one-handed and two-handed at the same time. Pick one or the other. You could change between rounds. Heck, you can probably change between attacks. But it isn't Schrodinger's cat; you don't get to be both at once.

[ElementalXX]

What if it has more than two hands?!!

What if its a juggler bard!?!!

*runs away*

[blackbloodtroll]

Why would I not treat them as both, at the same time?

I am failing to find RAW support for this not being the case.

[fretgod99]

blackbloodtroll wrote:

Why would I not treat them as both, at the same time?

I am failing to find RAW support for this not being the case.

Because it doesn't make sense to treat it as both at the same time? Or alternatively, let's pretend for a second they meant for you to be able to treat it differently simultaneously, which abilities is it that are actually causing you confusion as to how they woukd combine - are the results of any of them non-obvious?

Look, I know you despise all things Bastard Sword related, especially when it comes to any of the FAQs, but is this really an issue you think is necessary to pick at? Maybe they'll find a way to reword the weapon's entry when they release PF 2.0 or whatever, but until then they are stuck with legacy wording. How many times do you feel it is necessary to make known your feelings for the weapon? At this point, can we all just agree that it is what it is? And what it is is a weird corner case that works oddly based on a whole heap of unusual rules interactions.

[blackbloodtroll]

I can treat a weapon as a piercing and slashing weapon, simultaneously.

I can treat a weapon as a melee and ranged weapon, simultaneously.

Why does this case come with so many unwritten exceptions?

[wraithstrike]

blackbloodtroll wrote:

I can treat a weapon as a piercing and slashing weapon, simultaneously.

I can treat a weapon as a melee and ranged weapon, simultaneously.

Why does this case come with so many unwritten exceptions?

Is this a serious issue that you do not understand?

[fretgod99]

blackbloodtroll wrote:

I can treat a weapon as a piercing and slashing weapon, simultaneously.

I can treat a weapon as a melee and ranged weapon, simultaneously.

Why does this case come with so many unwritten exceptions?

Piercing and slashing aren't mutually exclusive. In fact, many weapons already do that by their nature. So I'm not sure why this is an issue.

Which weapons are you treating as melee and ranged, simultaneously? Mostly I'm curious. Because again, the two categories aren't necessarily exclusive of one another.

But with one-handed and two-handed weapons, for the reasons you'd want to treat the weapon as each, they are mutually exclusive. If you have an ability that does not work for two-handed weapons and an ability that does not work for one-handed weapons, you cannot utilize both at the same time. Those categories are mutually exclusive. The beauty of the BS and weapons of that ilk is that it can bounce back and forth between the two categories whenever the need arises. But the two categories (being treated as one or the other) are conceptually exclusive of one another.

As for your issue with exceptions, see my above post. What exactly are you trying to accomplish by constantly voicing your frustration with this weapon in particular? Note that I'm not saying you can't do so, I'm just wondering what your end goal is. If you had your druthers, how would the BS work and how would you write the entry so that it resolves each and all of the queries you bring up every time someone so much as mentions the weapon?

[jreyst]

blackbloodtroll wrote:

Why does this case come with so many unwritten exceptions?

Because it's Pathfinder/3.x derivative/a descendant of 40+ years of rules which in some cases were never re-written critically when passing from generation to generation.

[ElementalXX]

fretgod99 wrote:

Which weapons are you treating as melee and ranged, simultaneously? Mostly I'm curious. Because again, the two categories aren't necessarily exclusive of one another.

axe musket, pistol dagger and all the like. Actually their category is ranged weapons altought they are also melee weapons, werird yeah

[Kazaan]

Ok, let me explain this for people still confused.

A Longsword is a one-handed weapon, as an item. It doesn't matter if it's a medium Longsword, a tiny Longsword, or a Gargantuan Longsword, it is a one-handed weapon for anything concerning it as an item; HP and hardness, crafting, etc. Now, when a creature wields a Longsword of appropriate size, we're talking about "effort to wield", an informal term used to designate the relative size category. A Medium Longsword is a one-handed weapon and, consequently, a Medium creature treats it as a one-handed weapon. That's simple enough, right? A Tiny creature treats a Tiny Longsword as a one-handed weapon and a Gargantuan creature treats a Gargantuan Longsword as a one-handed weapon. Now, the effective effort to wield changes if you wield an inappropriately sized weapon. A Medium creature wielding a Large Longsword takes a -2 penalty and treats it as if it were a Medium Two-Handed weapon. So it now qualifies for feats and abilities that demand the use of a two-handed weapon (ie. Shield of Swings, Pushing Assault, Overhand Chop, etc) but no longer counts for any abilities that would require using a one-handed weapon (ie. Spell Combat).

Now that a simple example is out of the way, we get to the case at hand; the Bastard Sword. The Bastard Sword is, as an item, a one-handed weapon. That means that for HP, Hardness, crafting, enchanting, and things pertaining to "the item itself", you treat it as a one-handed weapon at all times. It doesn't matter if it is for a Medium, Tiny, or Gargantuan creature. So a Bladebound Magus could, within the rules, be a medium creature with a Large Bastard Sword, a Gargantuan one, a Tiny one, whatever. This is allowed, but it would undoubtedly create problems for the character in question so it's not a very good idea unless you are going for a more comical character (an unlucky bladebound magus who was "chosen" by a weapon too big/too small to actually wield). But when it comes to handling and rules elements pertaining to the wielding of the weapon, that changes based on certain rules elements. A Bastard Sword is a one-handed weapon, but when wielding it two-handed, instead of treating it as a one-handed weapon in two hands, you actually treat it as a two-handed weapon. So it counts for abilities calling for use of a 2-h weapon. In this way, it counts as both a 1-h and 2-h weapon. If you lack EWP for it, you may only wield it as a 2-h weapon and, when doing so, you use martial weapon proficiency to determine whether or not you take a proficiency penalty. Now, when considering an oversized bastard sword, you must shift now only the normal category based on its handiness as an item, but also the "virtual" category that is special to the BS (and other similar weapons). So for a Medium creature, a Large Sword goes from being a 1-h/2-h weapon to a 2-h/unwieldable. The 2-h "virtual" category makes the same shift that an actual 2-h weapon like a Greatsword would make. Just as a Large Longsword is still a 1-h weapon that is just "treated as" a 2-h weapon in the hands of a Medium character, a Large Bastard Sword is still a 1-h(virtual 2-h) weapon "treated as" a 2-h(virtual unwieldable) weapon where you must use the virtual category if you lack EWP. Thus, a Large Bastard Sword may be treated as a 2-h weapon and, thus, Titan Fighters can wield an oversized BS in the same way that a Titan Mauler can apply Jotungrip to a correct-size BS by considering it by its virtual effort category.

However, this same Titan Fighter couldn't wield a Huge Bastard Sword even with EWP because their class ability only applies to Large weapons (weapons one size up) and simply has no effect on anything larger.

[Avoron]

Nicely phrased.

[blackbloodtroll]

Damn One-Handed weapons that cannot be wielded in one hand.

[Kchaka]

The Titan Fighter would not be able to wield a Huge Bastard Sword, but he would be able to wield a Large Fullblade, the two-handed version of the bastard sword, if he has EWP with it. However, it hasn't beem reprinted on PF... YET, but it's could happen any day, so why wait 3 years for it? (rhetorical question, no need to answer.)

[Kazaan]

blackbloodtroll wrote:

Damn One-Handed weapons that cannot be wielded in one hand.

They can be... you just need exotic proficiency. If you don't have exotic proficiency, you treat it as if it were a (virtual) 2-h martial weapon and you can't wield a (virtual) 2-h weapon in one hand except by special abilities like Jotungrip. For "standard" 1-h weapons like a longsword, it doesn't get treated as a virtual 2-h weapon just for lacking proficiency so you can simply wield it non-proficiently as its normal category.

[blackbloodtroll]

Well, with this FAQ, one could reasonably wield a Bastard Sword, in one hand, without proficiency, as an improvised weapon.

[graystone]

blackbloodtroll wrote:

Well, with this FAQ, one could reasonably wield a Bastard Sword, in one hand, without proficiency, as an improvised weapon.

An empty hand monk can use one as a club.

[Kazaan]

blackbloodtroll wrote:

Well, with this FAQ, one could reasonably wield a Bastard Sword, in one hand, without proficiency, as an improvised weapon.

How is that reasonable? Could one wield a Greatsword as an improvised weapon in one hand? If the Bastard Sword is big enough that, without specialized techniques, it is treated as a 2-h weapon, why would it be "reasonable" to disregard that and just treat it as a 1-h weapon when you're swinging it around as if it were a greatclub? If you're going to use it as an improvised weapon to deal, say, bludgeoning damage, you'd treat it as a 2-h weapon and nothing in that FAQ conveys otherwise, neither explicitly nor implicitly. And, likewise, an Empty Hand Monk would treat it as a quarterstaff because it is, virtually, treated as if it were a 2-h weapon for one who lacks EWP for it. The Monk would only treat it as a club if he took EWP for it and even then, it's arguable that exotic technique required to wield it one-handed is predicated on the notion of wielding it "properly as a bastard sword" and not in whatever manner an EH Monk would use it.

[blackbloodtroll]

A Greatsword is not an One-handed Weapon.

[Kazaan]

blackbloodtroll wrote:

A Greatsword is not an One-handed Weapon.

Neither is a Bastard Sword, for a character lacking EWP(Bastard Sword).

[blackbloodtroll]

Oh, it isn't?

It is not listed, as an One-handed weapon?

It doesn't have the hit points of an One-handed weapon, without a feat?

It can't be a Blackblade, without a feat?

Does not a Monk of the Empty Hand treat it as a Club?

[Avoron]

When using an improvised weapon, you use the number of hands required by the weapon it is most similar to. It is most similar to a bastard sword. You cannot use a bastard sword in one hand unless you have Exotic Weapon Proficiency. So you cannot use an improvised bastard sword in one hand unless you have a Exotic Weapon Proficiency.

If you're trying to use the blunt end of the sword, then its up to your GM to determine what it most resembles. That's how improvised weapons work. I would rule that it's size and weight stop it from being used as a club. I don't know, maybe a greatclub.

It is listed as a one-handed weapon.

It has the hit points of a one-handed weapon, because the FAQ says so.

It can be a Blackblade, because that is independent of the wielder.

A monk of the empty hand treats it as a quarterstaff without the feat, because
"For class abilities, feats, and other rule elements that vary based on or specifically depend on wielding a one-handed weapon, a two-handed weapon, or a one-handed weapon with two hands, the bastard sword counts as however many hands you are using to wield it."