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I require, when I GM, the players fill in their starting gold, starting XP and starting Prestige/Fame before I fill out the bottom of the chronicle sheet. Recently, I had a player not be capable of doing this, wither because he didn't have his paperwork with him, or because he didn't know.
I am considering, after that experience implementing an audit of the last chronicle sheet for each character at the beginning of play and requiring anyone who hasn't completed it to either complete it, or play a pregen.
Is this audit a fair and balanced way to make sure characters are up to date before play? Does it go to far? Not far enough?
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Is this audit a fair and balanced way to make sure characters are up to date before play? Does it go to far? Not far enough?
It's completely within your rights (and theoretically your responsibility) as a GM. I think it would be considerate, though, to warn all the players ahead of time so they're not scrambling to get their house in order.
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I've started asking players for their most recent chronicle sheet before the game begins. It was a bit rough at first (I've supervised multiple levels of chronicle sheets that needed finishing now) but my players now expect it and it's helping me to catch some previously-invisible issues.
I'd recommend it.
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Its a way to get an idea of where everyone is at and help out ones who maybe don't understand yet. I think there's something in the guide saying you're supposed to audit every time, though I usually don't think to do it.
Players should never have an issue with audits, it should just be a quick glance to see yep you filled out your sheets. Something you can do while people are setting up. If there is an issue, I usually ask the player if we can fix it after that game so we don't cut in to other players' time.
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Actually that is not asking much at all and a very reasonable request since everyone should be able to grab it out of their folder, etc.. and fill that out in a matter of a minute or two.
You should get with the other gms at your flgs and make an announcement to the players so it is a regular thing that will start happening.
Unfortunately it has become t he norm that players dont bring their chronicle sheets with them.
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Unfortunately it has become the norm that players don't bring their chronicle sheets with them.
Note that the guide addresses this particular issue:
Keep good records of your character and make sure to bring all of your Chronicle sheets to every event or session of Pathfinder Society Organized Play. If you forget your Chronicle sheets, you will be unable to play your character, though you may be able to play a pregenerated character or start another character within Society rules.
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Why do you feel the need to do it? Do you not trust your lodge players?
Tired of seeing this. Following the rules (which require exactly what this GM has been doing, not signing until the sheet is filled out by the player) does not mean you don't trust your players. Yes, many GMs handwave this portion. Yes, I'm one of them.
But when a GM decides to actually follow the rules, I'm not going to get my undies in a bunch because of it. Either I've got my stuff together, or I play a pregen.
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Unfortunately it has become the norm that players don't bring their chronicle sheets with them.Note that the guide addresses this particular issue:
Keep good records of your character and make sure to bring all of your Chronicle sheets to every event or session of Pathfinder Society Organized Play. If you forget your Chronicle sheets, you will be unable to play your character, though you may be able to play a pregenerated character or start another character within Society rules.[/quiet] [/QUOTE
Yes. The guide addresses many items under the gm section.
Just very few do it. Therefore many players dont bring chronicle sheets, resource books,etc..
The gms who actually go by the rules are frowned upon by those players.
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I used to just toss out chronicle sheets and make the players do all the work.
More recently I've swapped to handing out the sheets and making the players fill in name/starting value stuff.
I've found it takes just a pinch longer (I still pre event/number the sheets) but it makes sure that people's records are up to date.
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I'd recommend giving some notice. We're generally an honor system campaign, which means that it sometimes takes looking through some things to double check every bonus.
I'd just like to emphasize this. If this hasn't been part of the local culture you should give people advance warning. Yes, they SHOULD have their paperwork up to date but many won't and will likely be peeved at being turned away from games they were allowed into the week before. Yes, they should NOT be upset but, human nature being what it is, they WILL be.
Heck, many will probably honestly not realize they're breaking the rules.
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Unfortunately it has become the norm that players don't bring their chronicle sheets with them.Note that the guide addresses this particular issue:
Keep good records of your character and make sure to bring all of your Chronicle sheets to every event or session of Pathfinder Society Organized Play. If you forget your Chronicle sheets, you will be unable to play your character, though you may be able to play a pregenerated character or start another character within Society rules.[/quiet] [/QUOTE
Yes. The guide addresses many items under the gm section.
Just very few do it. Therefore many players dont bring chronicle sheets, resource books,etc..
The gms who actually go by the rules are frowned upon by those players.
Ive heard of not bringing resource books, but not bringing Chronicle sheets? Thats just crazy. Id prefer to be frowned upon by players then start breaking my gming morals by just waving it through.
Venture-Lieutenant, Netherlands—Leiden
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There's never any time to do audits, but occasionally it wouldn't be a bad thing. Good players that I respect and trust still sometimes make mistakes, and as a result something ends up OP beyond belief.
I think it's entirely normal to expect people to be up to date with their previous chronicle sheets.
RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16
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Last year, at a convention, I was running a table of 11th-level PCs through "Siege of the Diamond City". As we were waiting for the event to start, I asked to see the PCs' Chronicle sheets. One player explained, "I never keep those. Am I supposed to?"
Yep, you are. And that table over there is where you can pick up a lovely 7th-level pre-gen.
He actually started crying. If any single GM from his previous 30 games would have asked to see his Chronicles, we could have avoided that scene.
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@Chris: Ouch, that would have been painful, and embarrassing :-/
Whilst we largely run on the Honour system down here in the Southern Hemisphere, I agree, sometimes, it is important to sit down with people, and go over things, so that some things don't just slip between the cracks...
For example, I recently sat down a very keen new player, who had been playing a *lot* of pregens in games across multiple games days (since he had never built a character before), but had never actually filled out any of his chronicles (and didn't even have them in the correct order).
Needless to say, it took about half an hour to sort through everything (and fill out the chronicles), but when we were done, he had a 3rd level character, that as soon as it hit 4th level, would immediately advance most of the way to 6th!
The following week, he showed up with a wizard of his own design that he was quite proud of :-)
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Venture-Lieutenant, Netherlands—Leiden
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@Chris: that's pretty nasty. And shame on everyone else for not telling him sooner.
Did you explain to him that if the other GMs registered sessions on the website, he'd be able to reconstruct his chronicle sheets? It's a lot of work, but then he could at least salvage his character.
Is it required for a GM to register sessions on the website, or 'just a good idea'?
I just checked and none of my sessions are registered with the character I played.
One veteran player told me that "It really only counts for the GMs star rating."
As far as digital copies go a Venture Lieutenant stated that
"Those are a funny thing. Sessions on Paizo's account doesn't give you certs, and it's not an official record of your Pathfinder Society history. If you want digital copies of your certs, you'll have to scan and upload each individual one. It's quite a project at first, but if you do it and maintain your digital record, it's not so bad.
As a note, digital certs are not an official record of your history with the Pathfinder Society. This was clarified by Mr. Brock Autumn 2013 with Patrick Harris was inquiring about digital copies of certs. For in-person game days, you must bring paper copies of your certs. If you do not have the paper copies, your character is not legal. Digital certs are only acceptable for virtual table tops and other online games."
Is this audit a fair and balanced way to make sure characters are up to date before play? Does it go to far? Not far enough?
You are doing the right thing.
IMHO there needs to be a better system implemented for storing information online. A player ought to be able to walk into a session without a single piece of paper other than their character sheet. An official Paizo system could be set up in the cloud for storing all of this information. It would have to be authorized by Piazo and could only be modified by the GM of a given session. It would contain all of the information for a character's activities in a given scenario or module. This would allow a GM to audit characters well before a session began and a player would not have to show up and start crying because they did not have the certs. Let's put it this way: How many of you have very important (sensitive) information securely stored online? Paizo even has a secure store so they are not new to the subject of safely storing information and I would trust them to house my character information. Why in the digital age can storing character information not be done via the web? Pathfinder needs to go paperless as far as is humanly possible. Everyone else is. Telling a new player that they have to maintain paper copies is a turn-off and I like to encourage new players.
That is an IT solution that isn't likely to happen. One of the tradeoffs for the convenience of PFS is, you need to keep records. GMs need to stress this with new players so it becomes part of their culture and they don't learn bad habits.
I completely understand. It has been my experience (outside of PFS) that keeping records online is a more reliable system than maintaining paper copies.
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Last year, at a convention, I was running a table of 11th-level PCs through "Siege of the Diamond City". As we were waiting for the event to start, I asked to see the PCs' Chronicle sheets. One player explained, "I never keep those. Am I supposed to?"
Yep, you are. And that table over there is where you can pick up a lovely 7th-level pre-gen.
He actually started crying. If any single GM from his previous 30 games would have asked to see his Chronicles, we could have avoided that scene.
In our area, before the big conventions, we started offering voluntary character audits to help players get their paperwork together and double-checked. It helps to make sure this doesn't happen, and it mitigates the problem of generally not having enough time to do regular audits at normal game days. We also use this time to go through and give the players advice, answer questions, etc., so it gives the players a direct benefit as well.
Interesting note: about 2/3 of the mistakes we find are not in the player's favor.
Is it required for a GM to register sessions on the website, or 'just a good idea'?
I just checked and none of my sessions are registered with the character I played.
One veteran player told me that "It really only counts for the GMs star rating."
As far as digital copies go a Venture Lieutenant stated that
"Those are a funny thing. Sessions on Paizo's account doesn't give you certs, and it's not an official record of your Pathfinder Society history. If you want digital copies of your certs, you'll have to scan and upload each individual one. It's quite a project at first, but if you do it and maintain your digital record, it's not so bad.
As a note, digital certs are not an official record of your history with the Pathfinder Society. This was clarified by Mr. Brock Autumn 2013 with Patrick Harris was inquiring about digital copies of certs. For in-person game days, you must bring paper copies of your certs. If you do not have the paper copies, your character is not legal. Digital certs are only acceptable for virtual table tops and other online games."
Just to clarify for my own understanding... Digital Chronicle Sheets awarded for completing a PFS sanctioned game online are not recognized as legitimate if you take them and your character to a tabletop game? Or are you simply stating those Chronicle Sheets must then be handwritten onto a physical Chronicle Sheet and taken with for a tabletop game?
As I do most of my PFS gaming here on the Paizo forums, I would love to know the exact rules regarding Chronicle Sheets, since I do not believe any of that is really covered in the PFS Guide...
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Is it required for a GM to register sessions on the website, or 'just a good idea'?
I just checked and none of my sessions are registered with the character I played.
One veteran player told me that "It really only counts for the GMs star rating."
As far as digital copies go a Venture Lieutenant stated that
"Those are a funny thing. Sessions on Paizo's account doesn't give you certs, and it's not an official record of your Pathfinder Society history. If you want digital copies of your certs, you'll have to scan and upload each individual one. It's quite a project at first, but if you do it and maintain your digital record, it's not so bad.
As a note, digital certs are not an official record of your history with the Pathfinder Society. This was clarified by Mr. Brock Autumn 2013 with Patrick Harris was inquiring about digital copies of certs. For in-person game days, you must bring paper copies of your certs. If you do not have the paper copies, your character is not legal. Digital certs are only acceptable for virtual table tops and other online games."
Just to clarify for my own understanding... Digital Chronicle Sheets awarded for completing a PFS sanctioned game online are not recognized as legitimate if you take them and your character to a tabletop game? Or are you simply stating those Chronicle Sheets must then be handwritten onto a physical Chronicle Sheet and taken with for a tabletop game?
As I do most of my PFS gaming here on the Paizo forums, I would love to know the exact rules regarding Chronicle Sheets, since I do not believe any of that is really covered in the PFS Guide...
Digital chronicle sheets are fine, you just need to print the PDF out that your GM sends you after the game and fill it out and keep it with the rest of your character's chronicles.
Digital chronicle sheets are fine, you just need to print the PDF out that your GM sends you after the game and fill it out and keep it with the rest of your character's chronicles.Is it required for a GM to register sessions on the website, or 'just a good idea'?
I just checked and none of my sessions are registered with the character I played.
One veteran player told me that "It really only counts for the GMs star rating."
As far as digital copies go a Venture Lieutenant stated that
"Those are a funny thing. Sessions on Paizo's account doesn't give you certs, and it's not an official record of your Pathfinder Society history. If you want digital copies of your certs, you'll have to scan and upload each individual one. It's quite a project at first, but if you do it and maintain your digital record, it's not so bad.
As a note, digital certs are not an official record of your history with the Pathfinder Society. This was clarified by Mr. Brock Autumn 2013 with Patrick Harris was inquiring about digital copies of certs. For in-person game days, you must bring paper copies of your certs. If you do not have the paper copies, your character is not legal. Digital certs are only acceptable for virtual table tops and other online games."
Just to clarify for my own understanding... Digital Chronicle Sheets awarded for completing a PFS sanctioned game online are not recognized as legitimate if you take them and your character to a tabletop game? Or are you simply stating those Chronicle Sheets must then be handwritten onto a physical Chronicle Sheet and taken with for a tabletop game?
As I do most of my PFS gaming here on the Paizo forums, I would love to know the exact rules regarding Chronicle Sheets, since I do not believe any of that is really covered in the PFS Guide...
Gotcha! Thanks for the clarification on that!
In our area, before the big conventions, we started offering voluntary character audits to help players get their paperwork together and double-checked. It helps to make sure this doesn't happen, and it mitigates the problem of generally not having enough time to do regular audits at normal game days. We also use this time to go through and give the players advice, answer questions, etc., so it gives the players a direct benefit as well.
That was really nice of you to take the time to do that. Confrontations at events are not good things to have and your method minimizes the chances of that.
While auditing even if something does not work out in the player's favor at least they will learn from their mistakes. I believe that most mistakes come from either carelessness or a misinterpretation of the rules or not even knowing the rules.
IMHO the "Guide to Pathfinder Society Organized Play" should be renamed to reflect its importance. It is very easy to have great Pathfinder character that adheres to all of the rules in the books but is not PFS legal as per the Guide or "Additional Resources".
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@Chris: Ouch, that would have been painful, and embarrassing :-/
Whilst we largely run on the Honour system down here in the Southern Hemisphere, I agree, sometimes, it is important to sit down with people, and go over things, so that some things don't just slip between the cracks...
You must do strange things over east then... because over here in the west its basicallly 'No Chronicle Sheets = Here have a pregen' with no exceptions.
Hell there has been times where it becomes 'No Book at the table for your Swasbuckler? = here have a pregen'
Chris: I think I was at a table at Paizocon just past and 2 of the people on my table didnt have Chronicle sheets on them as 'it was too much to carry with them on the plane from home'. I found it bizarre as I was in America for a 35 day holiday from Aus and I managed to bring 4 characters worth of Chronicle sheets in paper form. I use a display book with plastic sleeves for all of my chronicle sheets as Its a great way to store them chronologically. I don't remember being asked though on any other table for them though, I actually on the table offered the file to the gm without him asking and got a strange look.
What gets me is the people who store their chronicle sheets loose with a bulldog clip or just loose between pages in a A4 book of paper. It looks so horrible and must be incredibly hard to find which chronicle sheet goes with which character.
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That's what I've found, too.
Interesting note: about 2/3 of the mistakes we find are not in the player's favor.
In my admittedly limited experience, I usually find things in the player's favor like missing favored class bonuses, missing racial bonuses to skills, not picking traits, having thousands of gold pieces unspent, not knowing about bonus spell slots from high ability scores, etc.
But then, I tend to run low level tables for newer players.
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@Chris: Ouch, that would have been painful, and embarrassing :-/
Whilst we largely run on the Honour system down here in the Southern Hemisphere, I agree, sometimes, it is important to sit down with people, and go over things, so that some things don't just slip between the cracks...
You must do strange things over east then... because over here in the west its basicallly 'No Chronicle Sheets = Here have a pregen' with no exceptions.
Hell there has been times where it becomes 'No Book at the table for your Swasbuckler? = here have a pregen'
Actually, he *did* have all the chronicles with him... they just hadn't been filled out - that's why I sat him down to do so.
Also, he had previously only used pregens (including the game he played that I ran) - it was only after I sorted out his chronicles that he built his own character.
Generally speaking, we don't audit characters on a regular basis - but then again, I can't really recall anyone who turned up to a game without a character binder obviously full of chronicles (which would raise a red flag with me).
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That's what I've found, too.
Interesting note: about 2/3 of the mistakes we find are not in the player's favor.
In my admittedly limited experience, I usually find things in the player's favor like missing favored class bonuses, missing racial bonuses to skills, not picking traits, having thousands of gold pieces unspent, not knowing about bonus spell slots from high ability scores, etc.
But then, I tend to run low level tables for newer players.
Let me clarify my wording:
The mistakes we find most often are ones that hurt the player (i.e., the mistake was not in the player's favor).
Correcting the mistakes helps the player (i.e., is in the player's favor).
Players are more often harmed by their own mistakes than helped by them.
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Just to clarify for my own understanding... Digital Chronicle Sheets awarded for completing a PFS sanctioned game online are not recognized as legitimate if you take them and your character to a tabletop game? Or are you simply stating those Chronicle Sheets must then be handwritten onto a physical Chronicle Sheet and taken with for a tabletop game?
As I do most of my PFS gaming here on the Paizo forums, I would love to know the exact rules regarding Chronicle Sheets, since I do not believe any of that is really covered in the PFS Guide...
Chronicle sheets you receive in electronic form for an online game are absolutely as legal as any other chronicle sheet.
It's just that if you want to play at a face-to-face game, you have to have a paper copy. So, print them out. That's all there is to it.
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Chronicle sheets you receive in electronic form for an online game are absolutely as legal as any other chronicle sheet.
It's just that if you want to play at a face-to-face game, you have to have a paper copy. So, print them out. That's all there is to it.
One thing I've often wondered about is whether all GMs would accept all of them. Some of the ones that I've received aren't really signed, the GM has just typed in their name or initials.
Its pretty much only a hypothetical concern, at least locally. The chance of a local GM rejecting such a chronicle sheet is essentially 0 (as I think it should be. Rejecting such a sheet is tantamount to accusing the player of cheating).
Has anybody ever had a problem with this?
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RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16
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Pauljathome, For a while a couple years back, it was customary for on-line GMs to digitally insert their signatures, and then also add notes to the Chronicle sheet, in ways that blurred the line between the actual from-Paizo sheet and the additions / changes the GM made. As a table GM, I saw several of those Chronicles at a couple of conventions. I talked to the players about them, and everything was cool.
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I've actually never had anybody ask to look at my chronicle sheets except for PbP games at myth-weavers, where as a local community rule all players have to have their chronicle sheets up-to-date and available before starting in a game.
I am pretty anal about keeping them organized. They are mostly online, as that's where I do most of my gaming. When I get physical sheets, I always scan them and add them to my archive. Before going to a place where I'll play in person, I'll print out the ones I don't already have hardcopies of.
I've never had problems with people objecting to online chronicle sheets. I do remember a thread a year or so ago where at least one GM expressed that he would refuse to honor any chronicle sheets that were obviously printed out rather than signed in person. However, campaign organizers stepped in and told the GM that wasn't his choice to make, that these sheets are in fact just as legitimate as any live sheet.
(Truthfully, if you wanted to forge chronicle sheets, it would be trivial to do so. I presume that very few people actually do this because the reward is in the playing, not in just being high level all of a sudden.)
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I've never audited a character, and only ever had a character of mine audited once. I don't know any GMs that do it, except for that one who apparently only did it as a way to preemptively know if characters have clear spindals slotted in Wayfinders so he can "cheat" when it comes to NPC caster mind-control tactics. And now he's on my "nope" list to game with.
Personally, if someone wants to cheat at PFS, then they have bigger problems in their life than I can fix by making sure they REALLY spent the 2gp for that dagger their character has hidden in their boot.
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Something that needs to be stressed is the GM's role in helping a new player fill out his/her chronicle sheet and teaching them what it is and why it is important from the very beginning.
My first time playing I just got flipped a chronicle sheet when the Big Bad went down and was left to stare at it.
Fortunately, I knew from reading through the Guide to Organized Play that these things were somewhat important, so I was able to ask a Venture Officer if he could go over it with us to make sure we had everything in order.
GMs, please take 5 minutes at the end of your game and help out the newbies! Teach them what a chronicle sheet is. Teach them what an Inventory Tracking Sheet is. Yes, this stuff is written in the guide, but some people absorb information much better in person.
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I've recently been auditing almost every table. I used to only audit new players - mainly as a way to help them get comfortable but I really started focusing on doing them after an unfortunate incident where I needed to check for a particular chronicle in the middle of a 5-9 scenario (due to something the player did) and found two copies of the same chronicle on the same character (one play and one GM).
The most common error I see with new players are with point-buy. Probably 60% of them have statistics too high ("I have 20 points, so I'll put 8 in Strength, 4 in Dex, 6 in Con, and 2 in Int for a total of 18/14/16/12/10/10") and the other 40% have too low (either applying racial modifiers before point buy or using 15-point buy).
For experienced players I only occasionally find an error. But I like to look over the sheets and chronicles to throw in some character-specific role-playing I glean from them. Like specific occurrences related to an Oracle's curse or an opportunity for a cavalier to really let the edicts of their order shine.