So Occult Adventures open playstest is in full gear and Wayne Reynolds is already uploading his iconic sketches to his facebook. And as far as it's come I really love it.
But I also love the Psionics material Dreamscarred Press gave us. I have the full color hard cover Ultimate Psionics book and I plan to implement it as soon as I resume GMing my Pathfinder group.
So I really don't want to exclude either. But then the two systems are very different for something that in concept is so similar. So my question to you is, how would you explain the difference between psionics and psychic magic in your setting and to your players?
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Psychic magic is the same as regular magic but with a new name because reasons (since that's exactly what it is). Psionics is psionics.
Well, that was easy.
Side note, I found "So Occult Adventures open playtest is in full gear" to be funny considering the playtests is for all intents and purposes over now.
I don't understand how they are similar in the first place.
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Psychic magic is the same as regular magic but with a new name because reasons (since that's exactly what it is). Psionics is psionics.
Well, that was easy.
And kind of cynical. Certainly not helpful.
Side note, I found "So Occult Adventures open playtest is in full gear" to be funny considering the playtests is for all intents and purposes over now.
I must have missed a lot.
Not really "cynical" just a note that I don't see any functional difference between Psychic Magic and Arcane magic except how many times the Psychic says "Woo wooooooo!" when he casts a spell.
They're still spells. 90% of them are existing Arcane or Divine spells. They're cast the same way as all other spells in the game.
If it looks like a duck, walks like a duck, and quacks like a duck, it's a duck, no matter how many times you call it a rabbit.
And yeah, you did. Today's the last day of the playtest, and pretty much everything's been hashed out already. There won't be a round 2, sadly.
I agree mechanically it's pretty much the same thing, that's probably why they still call it magic, but when you have a group of players in front of you and you introduce occult adventures and ultimate psionics at the same time I'd expect there will be the question of "Why is this Psychic so different from that Psychic (Warrior)"
Psychic and Psionic outside of game mechanics are pretty much synonymous. That' what I mean with similar.
So say they're the same thing?
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If I were using rules supplements, I'd described psychic magic as "psionics interpreted through the lens of arcane users." Psychic magic is supposed to be mysterious and difficult to describe; in a setting with psionics, this could be because regions with little-to-no trained psionic users are trying to explain psionic phenomena via the Vancian-style magic they do understand. In that way, psychic magic could be a bridge between the arcane and the psionic, and retains its quirkiness because of how, in trying to encompass both, it becomes neither.
Well here is another variation to the OP: Is this more about Dreamscarred Press vs Paizo, than psionics vs psychic?
To me, no reconciliation is needed. They are not the same thing at all. Psionics are a touch of sci-fi in your fantasy, just like Robert E. Howard throwing aliens into his Conan world.
Psychic spells, meanwhile, are a touch of Victorian mysticism in your fantasy. Frankly, they might have had more traction calling them Occult Spells or Mystic Spells or something like that.
Totally different power sources.
As for why this psychic is different from that psychic, I don't know about you, but people in my game world don't call themselves by their class names. Even if you did have that, though, you'll handle it in the same way you would handle having a Brawler from the ACG and a Brawler archetype fighter. Or a Swashbuckler and a Swashbuckler rogue. Or two Divine Hunters (paladin and hunter). Or a Shaman and a druid shaman. Etc.
So Occult Adventures open playstest is in full gear and Wayne Reynolds is already uploading his iconic sketches to his facebook. And as far as it's come I really love it.
But I also love the Psionics material Dreamscarred Press gave us. I have the full color hard cover Ultimate Psionics book and I plan to implement it as soon as I resume GMing my Pathfinder group.
So I really don't want to exclude either. But then the two systems are very different for something that in concept is so similar. So my question to you is, how would you explain the difference between psionics and psychic magic in your setting and to your players?
I'm not familiar with the occult rules yet but it is mostly just adding in new traditions of magic which can overlap in thematic effect.
Its already a feature of the world. Want a mind mage concept character? Go with a wizard enchanter specialist build. Or a sorcerer who focuses on mind spells. Or a psion. In 3.5 you had those options plus the beguiler.
Same thing occurred with the APG adding in witchcraft and alchemy to arcane magical traditions and oracles to divine magical traditions. DSP adds in the multiple psionic magic traditions, and Radiant House added in pact magic. The world can easily be filled with a wide variety of magical traditions.
Keep psionics as a distinct magical power source similar to the categories of arcane and divine and then go with the fluff given from Occult Adventures for the classes from there.
If I were using rules supplements, I'd described psychic magic as "psionics interpreted through the lens of arcane users." Psychic magic is supposed to be mysterious and difficult to describe; in a setting with psionics, this could be because regions with little-to-no trained psionic users are trying to explain psionic phenomena via the Vancian-style magic they do understand. In that way, psychic magic could be a bridge between the arcane and the psionic, and retains its quirkiness because of how, in trying to encompass both, it becomes neither.
I think this is an intereting way to think about it. Yeah it makes sense that psychic magic is somewhere between magic and psionics.
Your post got me thinking of something along the lines of psychic magic being a less refined, impure form of psionics, that uses psionic knack to influence arcane energies, rather than unleashing pure mind powers.
I think that would make sense and fit with psychic spellcasters that don't cast as "consciously" as a wizard or a psion would. Not through study but through instinct, or a form of natural talent that they don't understand themselves. Keeping with the mystical touch.
As for why this psychic is different from that psychic, I don't know about you, but people in my game world don't call themselves by their class names. Even if you did have that, though, you'll handle it in the same way you would handle having a Brawler from the ACG and a Brawler archetype fighter. Or a Swashbuckler and a Swashbuckler rogue. Or two Divine Hunters (paladin and hunter). Or a Shaman and a druid shaman. Etc.
Yeah I also always say that for example a rogue or barbarian would be unlikely to refer to themselves as such. So your class is your set of abilities not the name of whatever vocation you choose and as such more crunch than fluff. But with the different types of magic there is always a very strong connection to the fluff, a divine spellcaster knows (or at least can know) they cast spells from a divine source, and a wizard does understand the difference between arcane and divine magic.
Well here is another variation to the OP: Is this more about Dreamscarred Press vs Paizo, than psionics vs psychic?
Not sure what you mean.
In my campaign, Psychic Magic will be the result of magic experimentation to duplicate and combat psionic effects because of the psionic race that once conquered most of the realm. Because the psionic race was only defeated and not wiped out, there are still practitioners
of psychic magic in the world, ready to rise to the forefront should another attempt at conquest be made.
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Psychic = spiritual. It relates to the essence of things. So outsiders should play a strong part of it as should some fey and some undead.
Psionic = mental. This relate to the mind, or the intelligence guiding a something. This focuses on living, thinking beings. Humanoids and abberations are prevelant here.
There can be overlap, just as you can combine the arcane with the divine. YMMV, but this works for me and will be a part of my campaigns.
I agree mechanically it's pretty much the same thing, that's probably why they still call it magic, but when you have a group of players in front of you and you introduce occult adventures and ultimate psionics at the same time I'd expect there will be the question of "Why is this Psychic so different from that Psychic (Warrior)"
Psychic and Psionic outside of game mechanics are pretty much synonymous. That' what I mean with similar.
You say: "do you want to play a spell-slot casteror a spell-point caster?"
I did a lot of work on the original DSP material, and I also took a look at the Occult Adventures stuff, and I am sure you can run them alongside one another without clashes or confusion.
I prefer the psionics system, but I'd play some of the OA classes because they are pretty good and interesting.
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Psychic = spiritual. It relates to the essence of things. So outsiders should play a strong part of it as should some fey and some undead.
Psionic = mental. This relate to the mind, or the intelligence guiding a something. This focuses on living, thinking beings. Humanoids and abberations are prevelant here.
There can be overlap, just as you can combine the arcane with the divine. YMMV, but this works for me and will be a part of my campaigns.
Probably the best distinction and reconciliation.
Soul magic vs. mind magic.
I regard all as different paradigms tapping the same source. They are all "magic" but how they access it is down to the character's understanding and beliefs.
I wouldn't reconcile. Their different systems and it's up to my players do decide their path to TRUE ULTIMATE POWER.
They could do it any way they want, besides it's not like the enemy can tell the difference too well.
Personally I categorize most magics as being "Of the ___"
With the blank being either Mind, Body, Soul, or [Miscellaneous Outside Source].
i.e. Psionics are magic of the mind, Sorcery (or any other stuff that comes from within you physically) is the magic of the body, most of the new occult stuff is magic of the soul, and things like wizardry and cleric magic are the magics of miscellaneous outside sources (sources like 'study' and 'gods').
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The occult stuff makes me want to re-watch Yu Yu Hakusho.
I agree with the soul magic/mind magic comparison. Psionics are sci-fi mental powers, psychic magic is Helena Blavatsky sprit powers.
From the wikipedia article, the term "psionic" comes from:
John W. Campbell, an editor of a science fiction magazine, became enthused about fringe science, and according to the The Routledge Companion to Science Fiction, he went on to define psionics as "Engineering applied to the mind". His encouragement of psionics led author Murray Leinster and others to write stories such as The Psionic Mousetrap.
... there will be the question of "Why is this Psychic so different from that Psychic (Warrior)"
Well, you could always rebrand them as Psionic Warriors. Sounds quite nice.
... there will be the question of "Why is this Psychic so different from that Psychic (Warrior)"Well, you could always rebrand them as Psionic Warriors. Sounds quite nice.
A rose by any other name would smell as sweet. Names really do not matter.
I always tell my fellow players that nobody walks around with a Class nametag.
An Arcane Duelist, Slayer, Ranger, Oracle, Cleric, and Barbarian all walk into a bar. They look the same.
What do they all have in common? A Breastplate. Maybe one of them has a nice jacket or another has nicely styled hair or another obviously bathes more often, but how's the barkeep supposed to know one of them can tell stories cool enough to make everyone else better at fighting while another channels the power of their deity through their body?
But can a barkeep see the difference between a cleric, a druid, a wizard and a psychic? A ranger, a fighter, a barbarian and a paladin?
Cleric, Druid, Wizard, and a Psychic well no.
The Cleric would be in a Breastplate.
Druid would have wooden or leather armor and maybe look natury.
Wizard would no have any armor.
Psychic would be in anything from light to heavy armor.
Beyond that he would have very little to go on guessing how they use their powers. That Cleric could easily be a Warpriest, Cleric, Inquisitor, Oracle, Fighter, Ranger, or even Barbarian.
That Druid could be probably be labeled a Druid. Anything similar can wear metal.
The Wizard could be a Psychic, Monk, Witch, Sorceror, Arcanist, or even Ecclesiethurge Cleric.
Mr. Psychic literally looks like nothing and could look like any class.
That second party the Ranger and Barbarian would look identical in terms of weapon and armor type. The personal clothes underneath would look as different as you want, but wouldn't give any indication that one can cast spells and the other rages.
Depends on the Paladin. If he's decked out in Holy symbols then all he could be mistaken for is Warpriests and some Clerics. If he isn't decked in Holy symbols how's he going to look any different from anyone else in full plate?
Once again, characters don't wear nametags and unless you intentionally make it really obvious then nobody is going to guess your class based on looks alone.
My vitalist carries a lot of crystals. She probably looks "psionic", or at least psionic-items oriented, if the power is common enough in the world (in my Golarion it pretty much is) to be recognized as a theme.
You can more or less guess a character source of power from their weaponry, tools and magical items. And be even more precise after witnessing them in combat.
But going back to the topic, I don't really see a conflict in having more subsystems in the game - a little more work for the player, a lot more for the DM, but if both side are ok with it, why not?
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Not really "cynical" just a note that I don't see any functional difference between Psychic Magic and Arcane magic except how many times the Psychic says "Woo wooooooo!" when he casts a spell.
Uh...he says it zero times. Because users of psychic magic don't use somatic or verbal components. At all. Ever. That's a fairly large difference, to be honest. Bigger than the Arcane/Divine difference anyway. Psychic Magic is, in a sense, entirely mental and internal...and that's pretty different, as flavors of magic go.
They're still spells. 90% of them are existing Arcane or Divine spells. They're cast the same way as all other spells in the game.
That's only true of the playtest. They've said there'll be a bunch of psychic spells in the book...but the playtest was for the classes, not the spells.
If it looks like a duck, walks like a duck, and quacks like a duck, it's a duck, no matter how many times you call it a rabbit.
True. But nobody ever claimed it was anything other than another style of magic, as distinct as Arcane and Divine, but not much more so.
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The occult stuff makes me want to re-watch Yu Yu Hakusho.
Kuwabara was a soulknife. Yusuke was a wilder. Just saying...
In a world where both systems existed, I would try to tease them apart on what they meant to people conceptually in game in society or how one might influence the other. In my examples below, I will assume psionics is the "naturally occurring" mental ability that came first.
From an ingame perspective, psychic magic might have been developed as a response to the (threat of?) psionics. It it was about ditching the external trappings of magic in order to compete with the "componentless" nature of psionics. A way for those not naturally gifted in the mind to strike back at the naturally psionic, or to at least strike as covertly.
Or perhaps psychic magic is a kind of mysticism that breaches the boundaries between magic and psionics. A movement developed to attempt to capture the best of both worlds.
You could just as easily rule that psychic magic came first as a sort of "proto-psionic" study where the field was dominated more by mysticism than the sci-fi trappings of psionics (if psionics is associated with such trappings in your game.) In this way, you could have an "evolution" of metaphysical practices like the following:
magic->psychic magic -> psionics
Psychic Magic is the product of a Psionic being not realizing their own potential.
Psychic Magic is what happens when a Psionic character tries to use their power to manipulate magic rather than just using raw psionic power.
With the exception of the Psychic, the descriptions of all the Occult Classes make it clear that they are channeling outside forces. Psionic classes on the other hand are all about personal power and forcing your own will upon the outside world.
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Psionic classes on the other hand are all about personal power and forcing your own will upon the outside world.
Ironically Aleister Crowley used almost the same words to describe magic in real life: that magic is an act of will which you force onto the world. All the chanting and props are just used to focus the will.
Ironically Aleister Crowley used almost the same words to describe magic in real life: that magic is an act of will which you force onto the world. All the chanting and props are just used to focus the will.
There are plenty of excellent RPG's where magic functions that way. Pathfinder is not one of them.
I don't really see the problem with having both Psionics and Psychic magic in a campaign. They are different, so what if the names are similar. We play a game where no one says a word that Wizards and Sorcerer's both use the same spell list the only real difference being how they obtain their spells and how many and how often.
These two power systems are very different from each other. Might some of the effect be similar sure but then if you open that can of worms you need to bring in arcane and divine magic as well since they will also overlap. In other words Wizards, Psions, and Kineticists will all have ways to levitate. They will just be doing it a little differently.
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Ironically Aleister Crowley used almost the same words to describe magic in real life: that magic is an act of will which you force onto the world. All the chanting and props are just used to focus the will.There are plenty of excellent RPG's where magic functions that way. Pathfinder is not one of them.
Sort of. One could argue that Spellcasters aren't "true" magic users, which is why those Outsiders and other creatures with tons of SLAs and Supernatural abilities look down on them. =)
After all, to them using magic is as easy as breathing. Those puny mortals wagging their fingers and chanting to achieve the same effect are so...cute. =)
different tools for different campaigns. Use where appropriate
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Reconcile? Why?
Ironically Aleister Crowley used almost the same words to describe magic in real life: that magic is an act of will which you force onto the world. All the chanting and props are just used to focus the will.There are plenty of excellent RPG's where magic functions that way. Pathfinder is not one of them.Sort of. One could argue that Spellcasters aren't "true" magic users, which is why those Outsiders and other creatures with tons of SLAs and Supernatural abilities look down on them. =)
After all, to them using magic is as easy as breathing. Those puny mortals wagging their fingers and chanting to achieve the same effect are so...cute. =)
Could be. You could argue the Dreamscarred psionic system is Crowliesque magick, but that's as close as you can get.
So I decided to unearth this thread because with the occult bestiary and the upcoming things listed for Bestiary 5 I feel like Psychic Magic and Psionics while I do find they are very different in flavor, manage to step on each others toes a lot.
With the Caller in Darkness being announced as a psychic creature, when it was originally (and is also in DSP's psionic bestiary) a psionic one. Same goes for the Psychic Duergar variant.
Gray Aliens which i would think firmly in the psionic category also coming as psychic creatures.
So I'm thinking if I don't want to pass on either in my setting, I would think the two should be closely linked to make sense. Originally I was going to go by saying Psychic Magic is simply accessing magic through thought and emotion (which it basically is) while psionics is a nonmagical power of the mind ultimately not connected to the other. Both of which require some form of inherent inclination.
Now that the lines are being somewhat blurred I will either have to cut out the overlaps (such as monsters that exist in both themes) or have an explanation. So I was thinking of going something similar to what Hark said
Psychic Magic is the product of a Psionic being not realizing their own potential.
Psychic Magic is what happens when a Psionic character tries to use their power to manipulate magic rather than just using raw psionic power.
Essentially while psionics is pure mind-power, psychic magic would be using latent psionic power to manipulatie magic energy. And this indirect use of psionics and magic has led to some possibilites that neither "pure" form can provide. (such as the various class abilities of the occult classes)
That way I can say for example psychic duergar are related to psionic duergar but have lost the instinctual ability to direclty manifest psionics but rather have taken to using magic.
To this end i'm wondering whether it would make sense/still be balanced to give the occult classes the Wild Talent feat as a bonus feat.
Psychic magic differs from other magic the same way Arcane and Divine differ. The structure is the same but the energy to fuel the spells comes from different sources.