Kineticist Move Earth Unworked Stone

[Mahtobedis]

I am wondering why move earth does not allow the kinetics to use the ability in any area that is a town, indoors, or a large dwarves fortress.

If we assume that work stone is any stone which has been set carved or otherwise manipulated then any adventuring environment that is not a natural cave or wandering through nature severely hampers this ability.

I realize there are a lance issue to consider with making holes in dungeon walls, but wouldn't it be possible to let Move Earth produce a 5' cube of earth or stone in the absence any to manipulate?

[Dexion1619]

I have to agree.. I really hate that line "Unworked stone" its simply too broad of a term. I would love to see that line removed.

If it's unattended and stone/earth, I should be able to move it.

This is a situation I can totally see happening.

Geokinetic: Sorry guys, nothing I can do about the stone door.

Fighter: Isn't stone, like, kinda you're "thing"?

Geokinetic: Well, Yeah, but you see that door is CARVED stone, its not natural. I could lift it if someone hadn't gone and removed all that extra material from it.

Fighter: Wait... What? If it was bigger, and round, you could move it, but because someone chiseled it into a square you can't?!?! That doesn't make sense!

Geokinetic: <Sigh> Just start hitting it with you're axe, okay?

[mplindustries]

I feel like "worked stone" doesn't reference carved stone, but rather composites like concrete, cobblestone, bricks (not clay bricks, like, castle bricks).

[Dexion1619]

I agree that's what it should mean, which is why I think it's too broad of a term for the power. I would much rather have it stated that the power doesn't work on Joined Masonry or something to that effect, if it really needs a qualifier at all.

[Alex McGuire]

It stops geokinetics from destroying adventures. As irritating andnonsensical as it is, allowing geokinetics to effectively cast passwall at will would be broken.

[Shiroi]

Moreso than a teleport or go ethereal spell?

[Mahtobedis]

The issue is that kinetisist can get this ability at level 6 which is much ealier than the usual I ignore the walls abilities.

That's why I think it would be reasonable to allow the kinetisist to create blocks if stone in any form is present.

In avatar you often see earth benders moving around chunks of earth, but you don't usually see holes left in the ground afterwards. Its like they summon forth the earth from the ground. That is what I would really like to see for this ability.

That or a higher level version that lets me manipulate worked stone.

Or at least a clarification of what worked stone is.

[QuidEst]

Shiroi wrote:

Moreso than a teleport or go ethereal spell?

Yep. Teleportation and Go Ethereal are pretty bad at destroying fortified buildings, dismantling bridges, etc.

[Arcanic Drake]

QuidEst wrote:

Shiroi wrote:

Moreso than a teleport or go ethereal spell?

Yep. Teleportation and Go Ethereal are pretty bad at destroying fortified buildings, dismantling bridges, etc.

"Casts featherfall, touches boulder, and casts teleport. Teleport target is 500 feet above structure. Teleport back to ground away from structure to see handy-work."

[Dexion1619]

QuidEst wrote:

Yep. Teleportation and Go Ethereal are pretty bad at destroying fortified buildings, dismantling bridges, etc.

Oh, those we can still do! In fact, taking down bridges and fortifications are the two things the current version of Move Earth are still really, really good at. Earth Glide plus Move Earth makes you the best Combat Engineer in history.

Usually, undermining a bridge with nothing but hand tools would take days. With Move earth? Minutes. Castle wall might take a bit longer. "Took me a whole 15 minutes to take down that tower, must have been a hell of an engineer who built it!"

It really is a cool ability, it's just not that useful on a standard adventure without being really creative.

[Mahtobedis]

The not being useful on standard adventures makes it difficult for me to want to take the ability.

I defiantly don't think that it should be able to move worked stone at the level it can be taken. But I really wish that at high levels the kineticist had a way to use this ability (scaling at levels or an additional wild talent) to move worked stone too.

[Shiroi]

I've been looking into each element moving 1 5' cube per level, or even per x lvls, of their element. This opens up utility through creative manipulation of your element without offering massive amounts of material per round. As far as passwall or dismantling buildings goes... that's what earth does. It makes and destroys buildings. Reinforce your walls with iron if you don't wish an earth elemental or an earth elementalist to go through them. It's no different than having to place wards on a castle to prevent teleporting to the top or dimension dooring past the bars of the prison. Or using Arcane Lock instead of a mortal lock when you want them to find a key instead of letting the rogue pick it. This is one of many, many ways that a normal party messes with things already, and it's really just how geo should try to handle a situation. Examples include toph, or gaara. Can you picture either of them using a door if they weren't being polite? They can bust walls like they don't exist. That's what earth kineticists do. So encourage the use of the elements in creative ways... and think ahead of them when needed.

[AlanDG2]

I think I just explained this elsewhere. It is like this, your "Move Earth" power is really forming a connection with the elemental plane of earth. Unworked stone is "living" on that plane, just like a green tree is living or a cow is living, but worked stone is not living, just like a seasoned wooden chair is not living and a leather armor suit is not living. Clear?

[Milo v3]

AlanDG2 wrote:

I think I just explained this elsewhere. It is like this, your "Move Earth" power is really forming a connection with the elemental plane of earth. Unworked stone is "living" on that plane, just like a green tree is living or a cow is living, but worked stone is not living, just like a seasoned wooden chair is not living and a leather armor suit is not living. Clear?

Doesn't make the power any less super limited.

[Mahtobedis]

It doesn't make it any less limited. My issue with the power is that it oscillates between good for it's level and too weak for it's level depending on the setting.

There have been some cool creative ideas that some people have mentioned in this thread. But I still think the ability needs tweaking.

Another thing to consider is what do consider earth. Is clay earth? Is gravel? Is sand? There are a lot of earthy substances but I'm seeing a great deal of variation potential when it comes to these sudo dirt materials.

[AlanDG2]

It does not make it less limited, I agree, it simply provides a reason for the limitation in internal logic.

[Shiroi]

I can understand the logic. I'd still like to know why my Druid friend brought a bonded earth elemental to the party and he can walk through the wall, but I can't move it when thats all I do. Yes it's very setting specific as to how functional it is (I can't build a hut or dig a tunnel out of desert sand or in the ocean, and a swamp would be hard too if there isn't a Hydro in the party) but when it works it should actually work. This is sorta my whole character design, so it's really not like I haven't put some major effort into doing exactly and only this.