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I could see crit threshold being an option if you took all the other dex to damage options out, put prerequisites like dexterity 19 and weapon finesse, it overlapped with improved crit, and it only applied to light weapons or weapons with the finesse property.
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I think the classes that most benefit from Improved Weapon Finesse is not the Fighter, but the Dex-primary classes that don't like to wear heavy armor such as Bard, Rogue, and Monk.
If these three classes tried going Str as a primary stat, their defenses are generally compromised greatly, with exceptions for certain archetypes such as Arcane Duelist.
If the str-based above classes want to up their defenses by wearing heavier armor, well, the Bard can't cast spells, the Rogue loses many class features, and the Monk... well, the Monk loses pretty much everything.
If given Improved Weapon Finesse, these three classes can become entirely Dex-dependent in combat with nothing to lose. I think these three classes will become substantially stronger with Improved Weapon Finesse. I think this thread's discussion should revolve around these classes and not the Fighter or Barbarian because the Fighter / Barbarian power levels will not fluctuate that much when Improved Weapon Finesse is introduced.
But these classes already have access to DEX-to-damage in the form of Dervish Dance, Fencing Grace, Slashing Grace and the Agile weapon enhancement. Hell, the Dawnflower Dervish Bard gets Dervish Dance at level 1 for free.
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So they plyatests have proved dex enihandeers are not broken, so then if improved weapon finesse is really "op" then...
-Difference between Improved Weapon Finesse and Fencing Grace/slashing grace/Dervish dance:
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Weapon Focus
:...............
I guess one extra feat will destroy demiplanes all the time on every game, yeah....
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One of the major problems here is that people are failing at using the English language:
Dexterity is not speed - it's motor control. Dexterity is about your ability to bend and twist; it's a measure of how flexible you are, and how finely you can move the parts of your body. If anything, STRENGTH is a measure of speed, as it is impossible to have great speed and not great strength (running speed = great leg strength; speed of melee attacks = great arm strength).
Admittedly, the game DOES muddle the difference between full-body dexterity and MANUAL dexterity, but this has been the case since OD&D, and it's for the sake of keeping things simple, instead of having 12+ ability scores.
Anyway, this why Dexterity is used for ranged attacks: your ability to aim is based largely on fine motor skills (meanwhile, your ability to draw a bow is ALL about strength - which is why the Strength scores for Composite Bows are a good representation of real bows, especially recurve bows). It's also why Dex is used for things like Acrobatics (balance and motor control), Initiative (how quick your unconscious reflexes are), and AC (ability to duck and weave).
Melee weapons usable with Weapon Finesse are as they are because they are balanced such that they can be manipulated easily just with your lower arm. Weapons like Longswords cannot be manipulated with your lower arms alone because they aren't balanced correctly; the same is true with battleaxes and battlehammers. At the same time, it takes special training to use any weapon in this way - swords like rapiers are used in a radically different way than your typical short- or broadsword, and using shortswords in this manner is equally as odd, since shortswords are thrusting weapons; while anyone who knows how to use swords in general will be able to fight with a rapier, they'll probably end up using it like a sabre, rather than properly using it as a finesse thrusting weapon, thus justifying the need for Weapon Finesse on top of general proficiency.
Watch a fencing match using rapiers, and then one using sabres. The rapier fighters manipulate the sword primarily with their wrists, while sabre fighters must swing with their full arms.
Then look at Kendo matches, and, if you can, see the arms of Kendo masters. Shinai fly at lighting speeds, and the arms of a Kendoka are like iron rods - they are EXTREMELY strong, and their speed comes from being that strong. Accuracy plays a part, too, but that is more representative of the BAB than it is of Dex doing much to hit.
However, the amount of damage with any weapon, balanced or otherwise, is is still based on two things: first, how hard the hit occurs, which is a measure of strength; second, how sharp the weapon is and/or (especially in the case of bludgeoning weapons) how heavy it is.
Thus, Dexterity to attack make sense: Dexterity, being a measure of fine muscle control, would allow someone to make fine adjustments to attack and hit weak points. Dex to damage, however, is a lot more abstract, since how hard you penetrate an opponent's flesh is a measure of force, which is almost always strength (and, as has been shown before, even speed is generated by Strength, so "DEX=SPEED" isn't valid in the least).
I'm not saying Dex to Damage isn't possible, but both for game balance purposes (easy dex-to-damage everywhere means Strength would become a dead stat for everything but those classes which already benefit completely from 2HF like the Barbarian) and for simulation purposes, getting dex to damage is darn hard to pull off, and so kinda justifies the need for either extensive specialization with a weapon (Slashing Grace) or just straight-out magic (Agile).
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Dexterity is a meta construct that takes something complex and makes it simple so that it can easily translate into the rpg. Realism has no place here.
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Also, there is, for some reason, the idea of Size = Strength =/= Speed.
As has been said before, Bruce Lee and Shaolin monks are unbelievably strong: Lee famously did two-finger push-ups, which is no more a testament to dexterity than hauling an SUV with your teeth is.
He was also one of the most ungodly quick humans to ever live, specifically BECAUSE of his massive strength, and his attacks were devastating because of this.
Lee also happened to be extremely flexible, and THIS is where Dex comes into play. Lee could bend and twist in ways that would actually hurt most people. This made him extremely hard to hit, since he could effortlessly avoid lots of attacks.
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I think the major issue is that people look at fighters like Brock Lesner and think "THAT is what Strength looks like" without realizing that Strength doesn't strictly come from size, and it is far more often the case that TONED muscles over LARGE muscles resulting in incredible outputs of force.
Now, large AND toned muscles will give rise to great feats of strength. But large doesn't even mean "big by default," either. Again, look at Bruce Lee when he flexed his muscles - he was able to increase his frame by almost HALF, which is nearly unheard of for a human. He had extremely large muscles, but again were TONED, so that they only grew very large when he flexed them.
In the case of guys like Brock Lesner, again, they're not actually that strong. They're physically stronger than most people, but compare Lesner to an average Shaolin monk, and you'll see that he isn't that much more powerful. The reason is that Lesner's muscle mass doesn't increase that much when he flexes; by comparison, a Shaolin monk will flex their muscles to very large sizes, and this ability to expand and contract at high rates of speed generate an enormous amount of force, or what most people call "strength".
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Dexterity, on the other hand, is more akin to gymnasts, who are typically lithe and toned themselves, and, as a result, stronger than most people, but their muscles are more about flexibility and motor control than about outputs of strength.
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So they plyatests have proved dex enihandeers are not broken, so then if improved weapon finesse is really "op" then...
-Difference between Improved Weapon Finesse and Fencing Grace/slashing grace/Dervish dance:
................
Weapon Focus
:...............I guess one extra feat will destroy demiplanes all the time on every game, yeah....
Even without Weapon Focus DEX builds require more feats than Strength builds. All a Strength build needs is Power Attack.
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Dexterity is a meta construct that takes something complex and makes it simple so that it can easily translate into the rpg. Realism has no place here.
Realism has to be used to an extent, otherwise stats are useless. And, as I said, Dexterity has already been simplified while still retaining a level of realism to properly simulate what it's supposed to represent.
If you wanted to get 100% realism, then you would have Lower Arm Strength, Upper Body Strength, Leg Strength, Flexible Dexterity, Manual Dexterity, Reflexive Dexterity, Constitutional Health, Constitutional Toughness, Mathematical-Mechanical Intelligence, Cognitive Intelligence, Applicable Wisdom, Insightful Wisdom, Physical Charisma, Charming Charisma, Forceful Charisma.
So, that's 15 different stats, and that's not even really simulating reality properly - it could be broken down a bit more beyond that.
However, that's just nuts. 15 stats? REALLY? Every stat is condensed, rather than being compartmentalized, and even Dex is.
The point of the game, however, is to simulate reality to a degree. This typically falls on the "Movie Physics" end of things, but even those physics have a rhyme and reason to them drawn from reality.
RPGs taking liberties with the fine-points reality in terms of stats is one thing, but what's being argued here is just ignoring the basis for any of these stats existing, frankly.
Even without Weapon Focus DEX builds require more feats than Strength builds. All a Strength build needs is Power Attack.So they plyatests have proved dex enihandeers are not broken, so then if improved weapon finesse is really "op" then...
-Difference between Improved Weapon Finesse and Fencing Grace/slashing grace/Dervish dance:
................
Weapon Focus
:...............I guess one extra feat will destroy demiplanes all the time on every game, yeah....
Which, again, is pretty accurate to real life - being stronger and faster than your opponent is a central aspect of most martial arts because it's a very simple-yet-effective strategy.
While there are styles of melee fighting which make excellent use of dexterity over strength - Jujitsu being probably the most prominent with its emphasis on kinetic-energy-redirection - they are the exception, not the rule.
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Dexterity is a meta construct that takes something complex and makes it simple so that it can easily translate into the rpg. Realism has no place here.Realism has to be used to an extent, otherwise stats are useless. And, as I said, Dexterity has already been simplified while still retaining a level of realism to properly simulate what it's supposed to represent.
If you wanted to get 100% realism, then you would have Lower Arm Strength, Upper Body Strength, Leg Strength, Flexible Dexterity, Manual Dexterity, Reflexive Dexterity, Constitutional Health, Constitutional Toughness, Mathematical-Mechanical Intelligence, Cognitive Intelligence, Applicable Wisdom, Insightful Wisdom, Physical Charisma, Charming Charisma, Forceful Charisma.
So, that's 15 different stats, and that's not even really simulating reality properly - it could be broken down a bit more beyond that.
However, that's just nuts. 15 stats? REALLY? Every stat is condensed, rather than being compartmentalized, and even Dex is.
The point of the game, however, is to simulate reality to a degree. This typically falls on the "Movie Physics" end of things, but even those physics have a rhyme and reason to them drawn from reality.
RPGs taking liberties with the fine-points reality in terms of stats is one thing, but what's being argued here is just ignoring the basis for any of these stats existing, frankly.
The point of the game is simulate fantasy, which sometimes is based in real life, but also to make things balanced because its a game. In real life no human can beat an elephant barehanded, much less a t-rex.
Pathfinder fails when trying to introduce "realism" by making an option deliberately weaker because "thats how real life works". The best archetypes are actually the ones which break from realism (quigong monk for example) and have made the game little more balanced for gimped classes such as fighters
I will concede that it would be nice for there to be a way to do Two-Weapon-Fighting with just Strength.
Miyamoto Musashi is probably the premier example of this in real life: wielding 2 single-handed swords, especially bokuto, using just his tremendous strength.
There aren't any sources that come to mind that speak of his dexterity, but he WAS almost (or OVER) 6 feet tall in Feudal Japan, and was built like a mountain.
Although I feel like, if there were a feat (or, worse yet, a TRAIT) which allowed players to use Strength in place of Dex when meeting the prerequisites for Two-Weapon Fighting or feats which require TWF as a prerequisite, that Dex-based fighters would just be killed off entirely.
While that would actually make a lot more sense, and make TWF a lot easier to use, it would also obsolete the main trick that Dex warriors have.
I will concede that it would be nice for there to be a way to do Two-Weapon-Fighting with just Strength.
Miyamoto Musashi is probably the premier example of this in real life: wielding 2 single-handed swords, especially bokuto, using just his tremendous strength.
There aren't any sources that come to mind that speak of his dexterity, but he WAS almost (or OVER) 6 feet tall in Feudal Japan, and was built like a mountain.
Although I feel like, if there were a feat (or, worse yet, a TRAIT) which allowed players to use Strength in place of Dex when meeting the prerequisites for Two-Weapon Fighting or feats which require TWF as a prerequisite, that Dex-based fighters would just be killed off entirely.
While that would actually make a lot more sense, and make TWF a lot easier to use, it would also obsolete the main trick that Dex warriors have.
Rangers (and other classes that can get ranger combat styles) can ignore Dex when taking TWF feats.
I'm referring more to something that's separate from classes.
I know that there are CLASS abilities which negate the need for Dex, but it might also be nice for there to be a universal thing that lets you exchange Dex in TWF for Str.
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Excellent. If it's already happened it should be very easy to provide clear, concise numbers. Preferably in a civil fashion.The numbers have already been run.
In terms of damage 2-Handed fighting ends up winning out on damage quite handily.
The deciding factors were
-2 to hit on the entire full attack.
It's harder to pump Dex like a mad man due to less spells giving Dex bonuses.
DR hurts styles reliant on many small attacks more than a 2 hander.What these two feats actually buy you isn't better damage or even equal damage. They buy you higher AC (Not always though because Light or no armor), higher reflex, and higher initiative.
You are using a too narrow selection of checking points.
- What is the effect of a higher AC (with appropriate armor)?- Higher initiative?
- lower carrying capacity that can be overcome with magic items or spells and the opportunity cost of those magic items and spells?
- Better reflex saving throw?
- Piranha strike?
- Number of dex based skills and str based skills and their usefulness?
Testing only against DPS isn't a reliable way to evaluate this change effect.
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Most real world arguments.
And honestly there should be BAB to dodge as well. A highly trained martial artist should be harder to hit than an untrained one.
Combat Expertise
Benefit: You can choose to take a –1 penalty on melee attack rolls and combat maneuver checks to gain a +1 dodge bonus to your Armor Class. When your base attack bonus reaches +4, and every +4 thereafter, the penalty increases by –1 and the dodge bonus increases by +1. You can only choose to use this feat when you declare that you are making an attack or a full-attack action with a melee weapon. The effects of this feat last until your next turn.
Note that power attack work the same way. You trade part of your expertise (or you can call it martial prowess) to get more AC or more damage.
The "problem", eventually, it the prerequisite of 13 intelligence or strength. Making it 13 intelligence of X BAB (same for power attack but with strength and BAB) would show that what matter is the fighting skill of the character.
Piranha Strike do exactly that:
Piranha Strike (Combat)
You make a combination of quick strikes, sacrificing accuracy for multiple, minor wounds that prove exceptionally deadly.
Prerequisites: Weapon Finesse, base attack bonus +1.
Benefit: When wielding a light weapon, you can choose to take a -1 penalty on all melee attack rolls and combat maneuver checks to gain a +2 bonus on all melee damage rolls. This bonus to damage is halved (-50%) if you are making an attack with an off-hand weapon or secondary natural weapon. When your base attack bonus reaches +4, and for every 4 points thereafter, the penalty increases by -1 and the bonus on damage rolls increases by +2. You must choose to use this feat before the attack roll, and its effects last until your next turn. The bonus damage does not apply to touch attacks or effects that do not deal hit point damage. This feat cannot be used in conjunction with the Power Attack feat.
Section 15: Copyright Notice - Pathfinder Companion: Sargava, the Lost Colony
It is that it is limited to light weapons, but it isn't that what someone wanted? A rogue would with this feat would be able to do more damage with a dagger than with a greatsword.
I have made some feats that allow melee guys with high Dex to get some benefits. Without taking away there str to damage.
Like improved finesse. Prereq:dex15 weapon finesse and dodge. Benefit. +1to AC and Dam.
Greater finesse. Prereq: dex 20, improved finesse. Benefit: +1 to AC and dam(stacks with improved finesse)
Superior finesse. Prereq: dex 25... You can most likely guess the rest.
giving a nimble and skilled melee guy options that a not so nimble miss with out invalidating str.
I dont like dex to damage, since hitting hard is almost never what the Quick and nimble figther is known for. But i welcome things that can bring dex figthers in to the figth, so to say.
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We must be playing different video games then. In the games I play the big strong characters are tanks, and the quick dextrous characters are the ones that do heaps of damage.
He he if it is in a video game. Then it must be true;)
Edit: sorry for the snark. But i think the essence is that we look for inspiration in different places.|
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Ways it fails:
1) Realism: If there's any question as to whether the big strong person or the smaller quick person is better in a fight, just ask why boxing, wrestling, and MMA have weight classes: If an equally skilled Featherweight and Heavyweight fought in any of those disciplines, the Heavyweight wins every time. so to make it fair they have weight classes.
This is a terrible reason to not allow something in a game like Pathfinder. We're already so divorced from realism with even the class abilities of a Monk, let alone the things higher tier classes are capable of. Not too mention there are plenty of reasons why higher dexterity could help you deal more damage, such as a more dexterous being able to better capitalise on weak points in the opponent's armour, and finding better angles to slide their blade in to maximise internal damage.
2) Balance: Dex is good for a lot of other things than damage. Str is pretty much only good for damage, or (without WF, hit chances). Well, and how much you can carry. If you don't need Str for damage, you can dump it without penalty, or at least without penalty once you can afford a Bag of Holding. I don't like seeing any stat dumpable without penalty, and one of the few big nerfs to spellcasters I'd support would be not to let them use their casting stat for so much, as in concentration checks should always be Wisdom, I'd say. Bonus spells should always be Intelligence. Save DC should always be Charisma. (Wisdom for the discipline to concentrate, Intelligence to know more spells, Charisma for raw power of personality).
DEX to damage feats already exist, yet in every Fighter, Barbarian, Paladin, etc. guide I find they recommend Strength as the primary stat. Do you know why? It's because the balance favour Strength builds. They get extra damage for going two-handed, they get Power Attack and all the feats that come after it, (yes, I'm aware a DEX build can use Power Attack, but then you aren't dumping Strength, which is apparently your issue with DEX-to-damage) They don't have to spend 3 feats to get their attack and to-hit bonus, letting them offset their lower initiative with Improved Initiative, their lower touch AC with Dodge, bump up their Will or Reflex save with Iron Will or Lightning Reflexes, or just grab feats like Cleave earlier than any dexterity build can.
Everyone should be MAD. No matter what the class, you make it with that change so Strength is easily dumpable...
Yet no one is MAD except dexterity builds that don't have access to DEX-to-damage (and Monks, Monks are super MAD).
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Every Strength character is capable of dumping Intelligence and Charisma and only really needs 10-12 in dexterity and Wisdom.* With full plate they'll have better AC than most dex characters, and with the feats they don't have to spend on Weapon Finesse, Weapon Focus, and Slashing Grace they can grab improved Initiative and Iron Will.
Full casters are more or less capable of dumping everything except their casting stat and dexterity if they really need to.
Other penalties to dumping strength besides damage
- Costs you multiple feats if you still want to be capable in combat
- Your weapon selection is much narrower
- You no longer have access to Power Attack
- You can't waltz around in medium/heavy armour with multiple backup weapons, even a chain shirt nearly puts a Strength 8 character out of light encumbrance
- A ledge over running water is a death trap
- You're completely useless during the inevitable everyone-loses-their-gear-temporarily scenario
Plus DEX-to-damage isn't even taking away the main penalty for dumping strength, because even after getting the feat you still have less damage than if you just went with a strength build.
*Obviously, this isn't true for hybrid spellcasting/martial classes like Paladins, Warpriests, etc. But hey, they get spells for it. I'll take spells over higher touch AC and initiative.
1) Realism: If there's any question as to whether the big strong person or the smaller quick person is better in a fight, just ask why boxing, wrestling, and MMA have weight classes:Because they do not fight wit pointy sticks that can kill you without needing much force?
When you only have ~4 hit points and you use high damage weaponry, the fight tends to favour the one with better initiative.
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1) Realism: If there's any question as to whether the big strong person or the smaller quick person is better in a fight, just ask why boxing, wrestling, and MMA have weight classes:Because they do not fight wit pointy sticks that can kill you without needing much force?
True - but they don't wear armor either.
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You know i have no problem with Str to AC, actually it makes much more sense than charisma to ac
I actually get that. I sort of equated it with being supernaturally lucky.
Wisdom - You listen to the secrets of the aether and understand them.
Charisma - The aether listens to your whims and understands you.
Wisdom to AC - You "hear" what everything is telling you and see the blow incoming in time to dodge out of the way.
Cha to AC - Suddenly everything is just slightly out of place to the aggressor; the target isn't where he thought it was, or something shifted his balance ever so slightly, knocking his trajectory off course.
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You can have full plate to make up for lost Dex AC bonuses, but then there goes another feat into Improved Initiative, and Full Plate with more Dex is better. Reflex saves aren't super-important, but Str adds to no save. And then there are skills like Stealth when it's nice to be dexterous.
Ah, but you will have at least 2 open feats more than than the Dex fighter, you can grab Improved Initiative and Lightning Reflexes if you want to. Yes, there are Dex-based skills, there needs to be some penalty to dumping dexterity you can't ignore with a feat.
Somewhat true (with arcane full casters), but running out of spells happens with multiple encounters, and if you want something other than the crossbow then...even a bow you'll need 10 Str not to take a penalty.
I don't see why a Wizard would be wasting time getting proficiency with a bow... But if you're arguing that dumping Strength should limit your weapon options, Dex fighters already have a much more limited array of weapon options than strength fighters.
Divine casters should be melee fighting some, as they're not so squishy, and should need some Str to do damage there.
Again, trying to be both a caster and a martial character should make you more MAD than being just a caster or just a martial character.
Oh, and for what it's worth even the arcane ones had better not dump Con if they want a chance to stay alive if something catches up to them.
No one really wants to dump CON, but a caster sitting in the back is much more capable of doing so than a martial character in the front lines.
*cough*Mithril*cough*. As for backup weapons, you buy a bag of holding as soon as you can afford it.
It's still a penalty for dumping Strength that, combined with the feat tax of being a Dex fighter (which I notice you didn't address), makes Dex fighters weaker than Strength fighters at early levels.
Not by nearly enough. "Slightly more skilled Featherweight KO's Heavyweight!" A headline you'll never see. Or if you do, the Heavyweight will turn out to be no better than a club fighter, and the Featherweight good enough to contend for the championship (be it boxing or MMA).
a) If I gave a damn about realism I wouldn't be playing Pathfinder.
b) Why does a Dex fighter have to be inherently weaker than a Strength fighter? (Well, even more than they already are) Martial characters are already underpowered in this game as it is.Most people who say improved weapon finesse isn't over powered use "they still don't do as much damage as strength based builds" as their argument. I don't agree with that argument. If you have a dex based build, and improved weapon finesse is an option, it is a must have. You'd be a fool not to take it. Ever. And that, my friends, is over powered.
Applying your logic, these feats are also overpowered:
Two-Weapon FightingImproved Two-Weapon Fighting
Quick Draw
Point Blank Shot
Precise Shot
Power Attack
Weapon Finesse
Arcane Strike
Exotic Weapon Proficiency
Rapid Reload
Weapon Expertise
We must be playing different video games then. In the games I play the big strong characters are tanks, and the quick dextrous characters are the ones that do heaps of damage.We are playing different video games because in mine the big strong people are slow with super damaging attacks and the quick dextrous characters are super fast but deal utter @#$% for damage. The medium sized ones are balanced (and usually ripped like a bodybuilder still).
and it turns out that those small quick dextrous characters that do weak damage per swing, tend to over the course of time, out damage the big strong fighters when it comes to average damage per second. it just happens to not be noticeable unless you run something like recount.
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It kind of makes me chuckle to see people argue over a feat like this consistently in the face of all the things characters can do. I can deal damage with dexterity and I can summon an army of undead basically come online at the same level, which one are you really afraid of?
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It kind of makes me chuckle to see people argue over a feat like this consistently in the face of all the things characters can do. I can deal damage with dexterity and I can summon an army of undead basically come online at the same level, which one are you really afraid of?
You can summon an army of undead at level 1? (Admittedly the TWF version doesn't come online until 3 - I don't see a lot of army summoning then either.)
Besides - this thread is about a potential feat which would do both to-hit & damage with a single feat - not those feats which currently exist. (Which I don't have too much issue with from a balance perspective.)
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RPG Superstar 2011 Top 32
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Ok, lets dump some strength. Time for a Halfling fighter:(15 PB)
Str 5 Dex 20 Con 12 Int 10 Wis 12 Cha 10(Could drop Int to 7 and Cha to 9 to really minmax if you want, and bump Con to 14 and Wis to 13)
First level take WF, IWF
So first level we have:Using shortsword, studded leather armor:
+7 to hit, d4+5 damage, AC19(touch 16, ff 14), +5 intiative
F +3, R +5, W +1
You could give him a shield to bump AC to 21, but that would drop him to medium load
Leveling up to 4, he takes 2. Piranha Strike, 3. Weapon Focus 4.Weapon Spec
Now +1 shortsword, +1 mithral chain shirt, MW light wooden shield:
+12 to hit, d4+8 damage(+10, d4+12 with PS), AC22(touch 16, ff 16)
F +5 R +6 W +2
At 7 the equipment possibilities start getting broad, and the feats branch out a bit
Let's take 5 Dodge, 6 Agile Maneuvers 7 Iron will
+1 shortsword, +1 mithral breastplate, +2 Dex belt, +1 darkwood heavy shield, +2 cloak of resistance (all well within WBL for 7)
+16/+11 to hit, d4+9 damage(+14/+9, d4+13 with PS), AC 28(touch 18, ff 20)
F +8 R+10 W+7
Obviously this character isn't winning any DPR competition, but he has a very good AC, especially touch AC, and he's doing consistent damage but not spectacular. He's losing a little WBL managing his equipment weights with special materials but after 1st level can pretty consistently keep a light load.
Again this is just a proof-of-concept build, I'm watching this thread to see arguments for both sides.
Edit: 4th level will save was off
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A challenger has appeared!
Str: 9
Dex: 20(22)
Con: 14
Int: 10
Wis: 12
Cha: 7Feats: Super Weapon Finesse!! / TWF / WF heavy shield / WS heavy shield / Double Slice / Shield Bash / Shield Focus
Traits: Shield-trained (heavy shields count as light weapons) / +1 Will save trait
Gear: +1 Mithril breastplate / Bashing heavy spiked shield x 2 / belt of dex +2
Int: +6
Ref:+7
Fort:+6
Will:+3AC: 27
Movement: 30ft
Attack: +13/+13 for 2d6+11(x2 crit) damage each - average of 18.9 damage each
STR 18(20)
DEX 14CON 14
INT 10
WIS 12
CHA 7
Feats Super Weapon Specialisation!!*, Power Attack, Cleave, Great Cleave, Dodge, Improved Initiative, Lightning Reflexes
*Just like Super Weapon Finesse, Super Weapon Specialisation is 2 feats rolled into 1: Weapon Focus (Glaive) and Weapon Expertise (Glaive)
Traits: Defender of the Society, Generic +1 will trait
Gear: +1 Full Plate, Shocking Greatsword, Belt of Strength +2
Initiative: +6
Reflex: +5
Fortitude: +6
Will: +2 (+3 against fear)
AC: 24 (22 when cleaving)
Movement: 20 ft (30 ft in 2 levels)
Attack: +10 for 1d10+d6+17, average of 26 damage to everyone in 10 ft reach as a standard action.
Really? I thought everyone agreed that an hypothetical improved weapon finesse will need weapon finesse as prerequisite.
Besides - this thread is about a potential feat which would do both to-hit & damage with a single feat - not those feats which currently exist. (Which I don't have too much issue with from a balance perspective.)
I was also under the assumption that such a feat would require Weapon Finesse rather than being a straight up better version of it with no prerequisites. Such a feat would be too powerful and make Weapon Finesse obsolete.
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I was also under the assumption that such a feat would require Weapon Finesse rather than being a straight up better version of it with no prerequisites. Such a feat would be too powerful and make Weapon Finesse obsolete.
On the previous page people were mentioning not requiring a feat at all for dex to hit & damage - when I asked which method they were requesting they didn't answer - so I split the difference.
If you want - remove the shield focus on my build to drop the AC to 26.