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If you allow Dreamscarred Press material then they have already solved this issue wholesale.
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As long as you make sure that you won't be able to get 1.5 times your DEX bonus to damage then i don't think that such a feat would be OP.
As Bob Bob Bob said the dervish dance feat works only with scimitars because both IRL and in Golarion, dervishes use scimitars (IRL two scimitars in Golarion one).
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As long as you make sure that you won't be able to get 1.5 times your DEX bonus to damage then i don't think that such a feat would be OP.
As Bob Bob Bob said the dervish dance feat works only with scimitars because both IRL and in Golarion, dervishes use scimitars (IRL two scimitars in Golarion one).
Just a note - a dervish dance in real life is based off of a specific religious ceremony in Turkey - and it involves no weapons of any kind - the only 'real world' examples of dervishes using scimitars in both hands is from the inspired minds of writers I'm afraid.
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If dexterity can steal strength's things should the opposite be true? A feat to apply strength to AC? Strength to reflex save?
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The overarching theme of the existing dex to damage options is this- hard to use, especially for TWF. I do not think this is unintentional.
For the feats, they specifically restricted it to 1 handed weapons in each case. That means it would usually be impractical to use 2 of this weapon since the TWF penalties would be -4/-4. Dervish Dance specifically goes out of its way to try to forbid using your offhand.
Agile weapons are also harsher on TWF. Since it increases your weapon's enhancement cost, it is impractical for a style that has to pay twice over for its weapons. It is fine enough for swashbucklers (who are highly encouraged to use a 1handed/1weapon style), but that was never really its intention.
So overall, the reason why there is not yet an easy dex to damage feat is this: They don't want to/aren't sick enough of the complaining yet. It has been a design decision that dex builds would be worse since it is also used for so many other things. It is just the trade off you make.
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@VegasHoneyBadger
Please be less aggresive.
You are wrong, dervish dance does allow you to use DEX for attack rolls, remember that scimitars aren't "finnessable" weapons. So if you somehow get access to dervish dance while igoring prerequisites you will still be able to use DEX for attack roll and damage roll. Slashing grace on the other hand does neither allow you to use DEX for attack roll nor use the weapon finnesse for the weapon* you have selected for your feat.
*remember that there are only a couple finessable one handed slashing melee weapons that you can use with weapon finesse and iirc none of them are in the CRB.
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If dexterity can steal strength's things should the opposite be true? A feat to apply strength to AC? Strength to reflex save?
I think this person hit it on the head why they havent and may not create that. Agility already has alot of purposes and this would put the nail on using strength for many builds.
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This is a fantasy game and most people want to role play out character ideas. A dex based fighter is a pretty common idea. When we start building these characters and find ourselves feat starved and ineffective it spoils the experience. I understand that there are many uses for dex and not many for strength, but that doesn't change the fact that dex based fighters are not effective. Even with this feat TWF dex fighters will find themselves outshined by the strength based two handed fighters. That is fact, and that should be remedied.If dexterity can steal strength's things should the opposite be true? A feat to apply strength to AC? Strength to reflex save?I think this person hit it on the head why they havent and may not create that. Agility already has alot of purposes and this would put the nail on using strength for many builds.
Ahh ok, i think i see the point of view now. Ill admit that im of the opposite opionion on dex fighters being ineffective because i dont base it tic for tat with the dmg output of something else.
tbh i think even with hit and dmg added by dex against strictly a str based 2handed fighter it wont compete tic for tat and that added a new feat wont help it. I think basically taking off the extra 1/2 str 2handers get to dmg will basically even out the dmg output than adding a feat to give agility to dmg would. Because then it wouldnt add agility dmg to ALL weapons, only the ones finessable which woukd mean the base dmg woukd still be lower than a str based 1hander fighter gets on all melee weapons (meaning options for dmg outputs because str based will still have a higher weapon selection).But i will bow out as i see im a different mindset in creating characters. I dont create characters to compete against other classes, i just create characters that do what i set it up for with the knowledge that sometimes going outside the box doesnt mean that i will be on equal footing or higher than something already established and im ok with that. Not saying the other ways or reaeons for creating characters are badwrongfun, not at all. Just bowing out because i have a different view being discussed :-)
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A lot of this really has to do with the problems of Point buy and how it harms non-casters.
Physical fitness, when achieved in a way we would expect for the typical Fighter, Ranger, Slayer, Brawler, and Monk would actually achieve a high level of force, agility, endurance, toughness, and finesse. In other words Str, Dex, and Con would go up together in the majority of cases.
Accuracy and damage would be based both on how much force is applied and how well you can hit the target area.
A good example of this we can view in everyday life is in MMA, boxing, Kickboxing, and to a lesser extent Ball Sports.
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The short answer is that Strength's primary usage is to hit things and deal damage, while Dexterity has a host of other uses. If you can consistently and easily allow Dex-to-damage, there is precious little reason to ever use Strength.
Newsflash. It already happened.
You can already get Agile on your weapon and do the same, the only difference is that it would take a little longer to do it.
And frankly, spending TWO feats is not "easily allow" imo.
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The short answer is that Strength's primary usage is to hit things and deal damage, while Dexterity has a host of other uses. If you can consistently and easily allow Dex-to-damage, there is precious little reason to ever use Strength.Newsflash. It already happened.
You can already get Agile on your weapon and do the same, the only difference is that it would take a little longer to do it.
And frankly, spending TWO feats is not "easily allow" imo.
How strange that Dex to damage comes with a feat tax or gold cost. Could it be that these are used as a disincentive and balancing factor for what would be a clearly advantageous style without them? That's prolly crazy talk!
Since we're bandying "facts" about, the fact is that there would be no reason NOT to go Dex to damage without these additional costs. When something is so good that there is never any reason to select something else, it's a good sign it's broken. Without the additional costs involved, Dex to damage would be broken.
(Yes, I know full well that virtually every martial character takes Power Attack; if not for the existence of all the casters that overpower any martial class before too many levels meaning the martials need every little thing they can get their hands on, Power Attack would most certainly be broken. Some folks consider it broken now even with casters and their phenomenal cosmic power taken into account.)
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Excellent. If it's already happened it should be very easy to provide clear, concise numbers. Preferably in a civil fashion.
The numbers have already been run.
In terms of damage 2-Handed fighting ends up winning out on damage quite handily.
The deciding factors were
-2 to hit on the entire full attack.
It's harder to pump Dex like a mad man due to less spells giving Dex bonuses.
DR hurts styles reliant on many small attacks more than a 2 hander.
What these two feats actually buy you isn't better damage or even equal damage. They buy you higher AC (Not always though because Light or no armor), higher reflex, and higher initiative.
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The solution is already in 5th edition, where 'finesse' is a weapon quality possessed by some weapons which allow the user to apply either their Str OR Dex mod to both attack AND damage, without costing any feat at all.
To level the playing field even more, there is no '1.5 x Str mod' to damage when using a weapon in two hands.
And Dex still adds to AC, Init, etc.
So, all the things that the PF devs are apparently scared of.
So, does character creation have every player abandon Str in favour of Dex? Let's have a look.
.....nnnnnnnnnnnno!
Str still has access to weapons that do more damage, and if you wear heavy armour you are not only denied your Dex bonus to AC, you also don't suffer from any Dex penalty to AC!
The effect of all this has not been the abandonment of Str, but rather choosing between Str or Dex. The only thing that annoys me is that, as a consequence, each character has either 8 Str or 8 Dex, but this is because of point buy, which I despise in either system.
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Most real world arguments for dex to damage are actually for BAB to damage since they involve skill.
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Which is a lot of rules that aren't present in Pathfinder, so unless you want to add them all... not necessarily helpful. And "either 8 Str or 8 Dex" (which would really be 7 and likely 5 in Pathfinder" is kind of a problem on its own.
However, the rules that are in PF make you spend two feats just to be less good than the two handed fighter who spends one, and even then only with one type of weapon. Unless you want to spend an ever increasing gp cost for Agile.
PF has been out for years now. In all that time I've been trying to make a Dex based, rapier-wielding swashbuckler who doesn't suck compared to a Str based one. When the ACG came out with it's Swashbuckler class, I'm still waiting! I have to wait for a feat from a book which isn't even published yet!
But in 5th ed, I've made a Dex based swashbuckler straight out of the book at level one.
I've been playing D&D d20 since 3rd ed arrived, through 3.5 and PF, and there is nothing to worry about if you make us spend two feats just to be worse than the Str based fighter who just needs Power Attack.
And 'Str or Dex 8' being a problem is not caused by Dex based fighters, or which edition you play; it's the fault of point-buy.
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I guess my confusion stems from the fact that these numbers, despite being run often enough and in an obvious enough place that everybody has them but me, cannot be readily provided. Discourse has a concept known as the burden of proof, which means that it's the responsibility of a party making a claim to support that claim. Where is this support then? Where are the numbers.
Because a great deal of the balance of such a feat would stem not just from which is higher but the margin by which one is higher than the other, which in turn would allow one to decide on whether or not it's fair and reasonable for such to exist.
If that's seriously the problem I will make statblocks for a 2 handed Slayer and a 2 weapon slayer using a "Improved Dervish Dance" later.
We'll get someone to run those through a DPR calculator vs CR=Level+1 standard AC and 0, 5, and 10 DR.
By using the Slayer I am giving that 2 weapon fighting build a fighting chance to close the DPR vs a 2 handed fighter.
If we can show that DPR vs expected enemies is a significant amount lower, will you drop the case?
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In my experience, which is having Weapon Finesse allow Dex to damage, and Dex to hit becoming an automatic feature of appropritate weapons, no it is not at all OP.
I've allowed Dex to damage with a single feat since 3.5, and have yet to see any problem whatsoever. It's not even taken very often, mostly by rogues.
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Easily obtaining dex to damage would invalidate strength as an ability score.
Paizo may one day cave to this host of complaints, but I hope they never do. I hate Slashing Grace and Dervish Dance and the Agile enhancement.
Dex builds should be worse at dealing damage.
Now, how much worse is the real question. Dex builds, and TWF builds should not be so far behind strength builds in damage. But if you make dex builds deal as much damage as strength, then you've left strength with nothing to do. Sure, it applies to climb and swim checks. Those are real important.* Oh, and carrying capacity, except bags of holding, ant haul, and a myriad of other things can negate this problem. I do agree dex build should probably get a little more benefit, but I don't think dex to damage is what they need. Combining two weapon fighting feats into one, would be a good start.
So no, I'm sorry. I can't agree with your position because you're too concerned with getting what you want, instead of looking at the whole picture.
*Outside of some specific campaigns these are almost completely unused by level 3. And by taking 10 you can usually get over whatever challenge there is, even if you don't have ranks or a bonus by simply using some equipment.
Fighter would be a better use than Slayer here. Slayer's primary advantage with Two-Weapon Fighting is that they don't need Dex, which would kind of run contrary to the point, and the presence of Sneak Attack could skew things. Intentionally skewing things-- in either direction-- is a terrible way to prove a point.
The big question is how exactly the numbers-- DPR as well as the various others governed by those stats-- pan out to the number of feats expended to acquire them (and by extension the opportunity cost therein).
Forgot about the sneak attack die, that would give the advantage to 2 weapon fighting.
No, Fighter wont work because Fighters have class features contrary to 2 weapon fighting.
Let us go with Ranger. I want the comparison not to be reliant on very specific weapon choices.
Easily obtaining dex to damage would invalidate strength as an ability score.
Paizo may one day cave to this host of complaints, but I hope they never do. I hate Slashing Grace and Dervish Dance and the Agile enhancement.
Dex builds should be worse at dealing damage.
Now, how much worse is the real question. Dex builds, and TWF builds should not be so far behind strength builds in damage. But if you make dex builds deal as much damage as strength, then you've left strength with nothing to do. Sure, it applies to climb and swim checks. Those are real important.* Oh, and carrying capacity, except bags of holding, ant haul, and a myriad of other things can negate this problem. I do agree dex build should probably get a little more benefit, but I don't think dex to damage is what they need. Combining two weapon fighting feats into one, would be a good start.
So no, I'm sorry. I can't agree with your position because you're too concerned with getting what you want, instead of looking at the whole picture.
*Outside of some specific campaigns these are almost completely unused by level 3. And by taking 10 you can usually get over whatever challenge there is, even if you don't have ranks or a bonus by simply using some equipment.
In terms of damage 2-Handed fighting ends up winning out on damage quite handily.
The deciding factors were
-2 to hit on the entire full attack.
It's harder to pump Dex like a mad man due to less spells giving Dex bonuses.
DR hurts styles reliant on many small attacks more than a 2 hander.
What these two feats actually buy you isn't better damage or even equal damage. They buy you higher AC (Not always though because Light or no armor), higher reflex, and higher initiative.
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If dexterity can steal strength's things should the opposite be true? A feat to apply strength to AC? Strength to reflex save?
Absolutely. A Feat allowing one to replace Dex to AC with Strength is a sensible one. Standing your ground and pitting your strength to deflect blows with your blade or shield is thematic.
Anyways, the most powerful of Dex to Damage builds are already available within the game via Dervish Dance or Slashing Grace. So really people just don't want others to have their more flavorful weapons for whatever reason at this point.
From an optimizing standpoint, Dex to Damage has already reached it's peak through those mediums. Allowing a generic "Add Dex to Damage with any one handed weapon" won't do any more than Dervish Dance or Slashing Grace does for say...a Magus or Swashbuckler other than let them pick a more flavorful weapon.
To reiterate,
A more generic Dex to Damage option would not break the game in any way moreso than Dervish Dance or Slashing Grace would(which it doesn't as we've seen since the release of such options).
I've yet to see anyone complain about Slashing Grace being too powerful.
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Most real world arguments for dex to damage are actually for BAB to damage since they involve skill.
The sanest person in this thread.
Most real world arguments for dex to damage are actually for BAB to damage since they involve skill.The sanest person in this thread.
Oh, that's why giant beetles have such high HP! They are actually highly trained and skilled in the art of beetle martial arts!
And why BAB effects other finesse-related abilities, like dodging and jumping!
BAB is not skill. BAB is an abstract notion for 'martial prowess' that is related, but not a catch-all, for skill.
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There should be no such thing as Dex to damage, not even the limited feats that exist.
Str then becomes a dump stat for, well, any class, if they take the feat, and Dex becomes super-powered: Defense, to hit, and damage.
Weapon Finesse is fine. Dex to hit actually makes sense; but to do major damage should require Strength. Dumping Strength should be impossible without creating a character who's worthless in melee.
Which is why DEX-to-damage builds are the most powerful, OP melee builds out there!
Oh wait...
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Most real world arguments.
And honestly there should be BAB to dodge as well. A highly trained martial artist should be harder to hit than an untrained one.
Most real world arguments for dex to damage are actually for BAB to damage since they involve skill.The sanest person in this thread.Oh, that's why giant beetles have such high HP! They are actually highly trained and skilled in the art of beetle martial arts!
And why BAB effects other finesse-related abilities, like dodging and jumping!
BAB is not skill. BAB is an abstract notion for 'martial prowess' that is related, but not a catch-all, for skill.
> Implying I'm talking about any kind of skill
Of course I'm talking about martial skill ("prowess").
There should be a bab-like stat that boosts AC.
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Anyways, the most powerful of Dex to Damage builds are already available within the game via Dervish Dance or Slashing Grace. So really people just don't want others to have their more flavorful weapons for whatever reason at this point.
From an optimizing standpoint, Dex to Damage has already reached it's peak through those mediums. Allowing a generic "Add Dex to Damage with any one handed weapon" won't do any more than Dervish Dance or Slashing Grace does for say...a Magus or Swashbuckler other than let them pick a more flavorful weapon.
To reiterate,
A more generic Dex to Damage option would not break the game in any way moreso than Dervish Dance or Slashing Grace would(which it doesn't as we've seen since the release of such options).
I've yet to see anyone complain about Slashing Grace being too powerful.
Have to second this. When to Dex-to-Damage can already be done with Sawtooth Sabres, Rapiers, and Scimitars, why is the dagger a deal-breaker?
Plus, in my experience, there's close to zero real difference between a feat that grants bonuses with a single type of melee weapon vs a feat that grants those bonuses to any melee weapon used. If a PC only gets dex-to-damage with one type of weapon, they will use that weapon 99% of the time. Even with access to all weapons, other weapon-specific feats and the nature of WBL/cost of magic weapons gives a strong incentive to stick with one weapon.
Most real world arguments.
And honestly there should be BAB to dodge as well. A highly trained martial artist should be harder to hit than an untrained one.
Spycraft did this about a decade ago. And FantasyCraft after it, of course.
However, the major issue with this model is that HP and/or Armor cannot remain the same if you have this - ACs would be so high that actually HITTING an opponent would be very hard, and they'd have so much HP fights would last forever. In spy/FantasyCraft, Armor provides DR, thus not everyone wears it, and Wounds & Vitality are the rule of law.
Then again, SpyCraft and FantasyCraft take the stance of creating a "movie": your AC is your ability to not be hit at all, your Vitality (HP normally) are your endurance and ability to shrug off glancing blows or barely dodge hits. You Wounds are your "real" Health, and thus losing any of them is a bad thing.
The logic is that a character is going to lose Vitality as time goes on, and by the end of the "movie" you're going to be running on Wounds purely. This is why John McClain is nearly impossible to touch at the beginning of a movie, yet can still get hit with a critical that really wrecks him, and by the end of the movie he's so beaten up he can barely utter the last "Yippie-Ki-Yay" before offing the villain.
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A soft port you could take is "Competence Bonus to AC equal to 1/2 your BAB, rounded up", with maybe the Rogue receiving a bonus equal to 1/2 its Rogue Levels specifically, since the class is SUPPOSED to be the acrobat of the group.
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Are you really blinded to the fact that this feat would be completely OPed? I mean would you be killed by someone using their agility or by someone using their strength? I mean if you were getting stabbed by a scrawny person, wouldn't you take barely any damage, compared too a strong guy, whom would probably kill you with that blow? I mean, isn't that the point of strength? Weapon finesse makes some sense, as you wouldn't need much strength to carry a knife, but it would to carry a 5 foot sword now, wouldn't it?
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WAIT SO DERVISH DANCE IS A PAZIO FEAT???
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In your game you're the boss. But I don't think Str makes any more sense than Dex for determining damage, since hit points aren't a measure of physical toughness.
Can you give me one reason in a game where I had Dex to damage as well as to-hit, that if I made a character I should have a Str above 7 and not then just get a Bag Of Holding as soon as I can afford it?
Back to realism, hp damage is wounding people. Would you rather in real life be hit (unarmed, with a weapon, whatever) by someone strong, or someone agile? Can you really say that they're equally important, or anything? Heck, why not Cha to damage if we're getting absurd?
Because two handers based on strength still do more damage than builds with dex to damage. It's not even a contest. Strength builds get two or more extra feats to increase their damage potential, and aren't required to spend their point buy on an additional secondary stat (strength) in order to get a power attack equivalent, or spend a +1 on their light weapons for agile to ignore the strength requirement (Piranha strike).
The AC bonus that dex builds get for having high dex is basically negligible until they can get Celestial Armor, since Full Plate is as good as any mithral light armor with maxed dex bonus, and far cheaper besides. +3 Mithral Full Plate can almost keep up with Celestial Armor, only 1 AC behind. The only real advantage they are getting is better touch AC.
So the dex to damage guys are spending either 2 feats and 7 point buy (the difference between a 7 str and a 13 str for power attack is 7 points), or 1 feat and at least 6000gp per weapon to get better reflex saves, initiative, and bonuses to dex based skills. As we've seen, the AC difference is neglible, except for touch AC, and they are doing less damage because they can't get 1.5x damage and power attack by using two hands, and they are two feats behind the strength based attacker.
As to your real life situation, most people that are strong or agile are both, not one or the other. Competitive weight lifters are probably the only thing I can think of that might be both slow and strong, but that distinction is basically an unrealistic abstraction for game balance (present in many games). As soon as you bring a weapon into the equation, it no longer matters if the person is strong or fast, a light cut to the right place will end a life no matter the strength behind it (major arteries primarily: the femoral, brachial, or carotid will all kill you within a few minutes and a shallow gut wound that opens up intestines will kill with infection in only a few hours to days).
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Are you really blinded to the fact that this feat would be completely OPed? I mean would you be killed by someone using their agility or by someone using their strength? I mean if you were getting stabbed by a scrawny person, wouldn't you take barely any damage, compared too a strong guy, whom would probably kill you with that blow? I mean, isn't that the point of strength? Weapon finesse makes some sense, as you wouldn't need much strength to carry a knife, but it would to carry a 5 foot sword now, wouldn't it?
One, it's not OP, read my previous post for the breakdown as to why.
Second, you obviously have no experience with melee weapons if you think being stabbed by anyone at all isn't easily fatal. A 5 year old with a knife, especially with a bit of momentum, could easily kill an adult. A 3 inch blade could easily pierce an important internal artery, or one of the major arteries near the skin, resulting in a quick death.
Dervish Dance, Slashing Grace, the Agile Enchantment, The Aldori Swordlord Prestige Class. All of these are Paizo created. All of these grant Dex to Damage. The sky still has not fallen.