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If dexterity can steal strength's things should the opposite be true? A feat to apply strength to AC? Strength to reflex save?
There used to be a 3.5 feat that allowed Con applied to AC given certain conditions (I think dwarf and a few pre-req feats). I wouldn't mind a feat that allowed str to fort saves or cha to will saves be available to anyone with a 13 or higher in the given stat.
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We could base our number attacks off of dex and that would make sense, but would require more work to calculate. Everything is easier if we just give a bonus based on dex and envision multiple attacks. Just because it doesn't make sense to you doesn't make it untrue. The fact is you do not need much strength to kill someone, and someone who is agile is able to land a blow in just the right place much easier then someone who is strong and clumsy.
You are talking about multiple things there. Yes, you can land a blow in just the right place. That is called a critical hit in pathfinder. Making it easier to get crits is uaully the tactic dex based fighters take anyways. It's why most of the weapons that you would bother finessing have a good crit range and you can take improved crit. Improved crit represents your character putting in the effort to get good at hitting in just the right place.
If I get a knife in your back, I can twist it. You don't have that kind of control over a great axe. With a knife I can aim for more vital areas easier as it is light and small. Swinging a big axe you don't aim for small targets, you are just trying to hit the bastard. I think the problem lies with lack of imagination on your part.
I don't seem to be the one with a lack of imagination here. Assuming that a knife is better than an axe because you can twist it means you haven't consider the rouge snuck up and hit them in the neck with the axe. You do that right and the axe is just going to take off their head. Either way the person is dead, but the axe definately did more damage.
No, I am not talking about death attacks. I am talking about hitting windpipes, and groins. Using a clumsy great axe makes that much much harder to do.
Again, those are called a critical hit. You obviously are talking about death attack since you used the example of twisting a knife in someones back and that's about the most on the nose example of a death attack as possible.
I am guessing you don't watch much martial arts. Find an 80 year old that has studied and ask him whether or not he need strength to hurt you
Now you are talking about spending a lifetime of training to master the art of disabling people with minimal to no weapons. That's called a monk in this game. It's a totally different idea than sneaking up on someone and sticking a knife in their back. I think you may need to watch a few more martial arts movies yourself, as most of the heros from that tend to be ripped. They aren't built like body builders, but no one who actually fights as their living is. Go google "Bruce Leee Shirtless," or "Jackie Chan shirtless." Those are not the bodies of a low strength characters.
I've ran the numbers several times and posted them in this forum several times.
The only thing needed to make it truly balanced is adding a small benefit to STR to gain full movement on heavy/medium armor through a feat.
If that happens, the two builds will have their own strengths and weaknesses and that's balance.
People aren't providing you with numbers because it is easy to calculate for yourself.I guess my confusion stems from the fact that these numbers, despite being run often enough and in an obvious enough place that everybody has them but me, cannot be readily provided. Discourse has a concept known as the burden of proof, which means that it's the responsibility of a party making a claim to support that claim. Where is this support then? Where are the numbers.
Because a great deal of the balance of such a feat would stem not just from which is higher but the margin by which one is higher than the other, which in turn would allow one to decide on whether or not it's fair and reasonable for such to exist.
Funny how that "burden of proof" thing works, isn't it?
Also 20 point buy is the norm at this point, for the record.
Everyone but you seems to agree. If you want to prove that wrong, the burden of evidence is on you my friend.
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I would like to reiterate that one point of Dex wishers is that they confuse high Dex with high skill.
Dexterity represents coordination and agility in Pathfinder. Nowhere in the rules does it have anything to do with speed. Indeed, the only stats related to speed normally are Con for running endurance, and Str for being able to leap higher and farther.
Attacks per round? You could say Combat Reflexes can grant you more attacks...that's the closest you can come. But attacks are a result of skill, and supreme weapon skill is going to look like everyone is picturing awesome Dex to even if the character has a Dex of 10.
Also, you are severely, severely underestimating the power of a high Str weapon wielder with a large weapon, particularly those with inhuman strength levels. A common phrase is 'moves a greatsword like a willow wand.' That's not clumsy, that's POWER. They can be incredibly, brutally fast. They just won't be 'pretty'. Watch some martial artist displays of using a staff or naginata, and see just how fast and controlled those big weapons can be moved. Now picture that in the hands of the strongest guy in the world, who can fight like Jackie Chan.
Weapon finesse also has a poor argument in that it strikes at 'weak points.' Sorry, EVERYONE strikes at weak points. The problem is that the Finesse fighter can't get through anywhere else. The Str fighter can turn a miss on a weak point into a hit by brutally smashing through defenses and armor, where a weak person can't force the issue. It's sort of a Hardness argument...do you really expect someone with a 20 Dex to do +5 damage against a wall?
The inability to target anything but weak points and the fact you can't effectively parry against heavier weapons forces you into an agile fighting style. That's a LIMIT OF YOUR OPTIONS. You can't choose to go corps-a-corps with a bigger, stronger man, you can't tank, hack and pound. Your fighting style is more limited, not more open, because you fight with a finesse style. You're more limited in what you can do, but better at working inside those limitations.
The adage in the martial arts world that a skilled big man will beat an equally skilled (and presumably more dexterous) smaller man has endured for centuries. Remember that much of the fighting you see on cinema is meant to be flashy and enjoyable to watch, and so the Dex guys get to win. In real life, you don't want to be the very skilled and fast bantamweight going up an equally skilled heavyweight. You'll get crushed.
Also, armor endured for centuries because armor worked. The thing that killed armor was not the invention of the rapier...it was gunpowder, which obviated the strongest armor and could be used by anyone. Rapiers and swashbuckling combat did not take off until the invention of gunpowder made wearing steel virtually useless. Even shipboard combat preferred heavier swords then rapiers until the gunpowder age, because at least it was useful against people in armor. Rapiers, not so much.
The above facts are why people don't believe in Dex to damage. They'd be more likely to approve a Bab to Damage feat, because skill can translate directly to more damage. But just because you have better hand-eye coordination doesn't help you damage a brick better, and it blows suspension of disbelief for many people. Not to mention the fact that getting SMALLER means your ability to hit and do damage actually goes UP...which is passing strange.
It also means that housecats beat dogs. Which is also weird.
==Aelryinth
I'm cool with Imp. Weapon Finesse as long as there is a high-strength feat to grant full movement on heavy armor and the like.
Funny thing is that clerics got the feat in Inner Sea Gods to get armor training. Clerics. Only prerequisite was worshiping Gorum. No strength required.
It also means that housecats beat dogs. Which is also weird.
This sort of thing is already true.
Unless PF buffed up commoners enough to survive house cats...?
Just saying.
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Well, if we're totally throwing realism out the window, then a feat that gives a Str wielder the benefits of a high Dex would serve as proper counter-balance, and str and dex become interchangeable.
That solves all the problems, right?
==Aelryinth
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Dex as damage isn't core because it doesn't make sense.
Dex to damage makes sense as more accurate placement of the weapon.
What doesn't make sense is Str to attack! How does being strong but slow help you hit someone who's trying to dodge you?
The answer is that, because of the history of the system, AC is not only about being hard to hit but about penetrating armour. As soon as other systems began to appear, they realised the stupidity of this concept, and stopped armour making you harder to hit and instead made armour stop some or all of the damage you take after you'd already been hit.
Interestingly, in the old Stormbringer system each weapon had a minimum Str and Dex rating. If you lacked the Str, you attacked last. If you lacked the Dex, you did less damage. This seems to be the wrong way round, because we associate Str with damage and Dex with speed, but the more you think about it the more you realise that insufficient Dex means you can't control the weapon well enough to use it to damage the foe as optimally as the weapon allows, and being weak means the force, and therefore velocity of the weapon, will mean the attack will arrive more slowly.
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In real life history, at the end of the 19th century in England, and before the advent of prize-fighting/boxing, the equivalent sports were combat with smallswords (rapiers evolved) and combat with broadsword and buckler (which is where the word 'swashbuckler' arose; the 'swash' of the broadsword through the air and the 'buckle' of the shield intercepting the blow).
Smallsword combat then became banned, while broadsword/buckler continued. Why? Because the smallsword was far more dangerous, causing numerous fatalities, while the broadsword caused things like broken arms and ribs.
But how can this be? With a broadsword, the strength of the combatant was more important, but dexterity was more important for the smallsword. Strength is what causes damage, right?
Nope. In real life, the tiny cross-section of the point of the thrusting smallsword needed almost no strength in order to pierce right through a foe from one side to the other, wityh a great likelihood of damaging something crucial. You just needed to place the point accurately, and that means dexterity.
The slashing broadsword was easily stopped by bones, and although the bone might be broken, this wasn't fatal in most cases.
So, Dex to hit and Dex to damage make perfect sense with some weapons, and Str with others.
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Strength builds are already more effective than all tbe current dexterity builds, I don't see this feat changing that.
Human Level 4 Fighter
Stats
Str 18, Dex 14, Con 14, Int 10, Wis 10, Cha 81 Power Attack, Furious Focus, Weapon Focus Glaive, 2 Combat Reflexes 3 Combat Expertise 4 Weapon Specialization
Attack +10 (MW Glaive), Damage 1d10+14
AC 21 (MW Full Plate)One big advantage that two handed fighters will see is AoO as we can have reach weapons, and our AoO add 1 1/2 str bonus where as dex based will not gain that benefit.
You can't have Combat Expertise with a 10 Int, but that feat isn't really used in your build.
Trade the Str and the Dex, so Str 14 Dex 18, replace CE with EWP(elven curve blade), and your concession of free Finesse/Imp Finesse, and we get:
Attack +10(MW Elven Curve Blade), damage 1d10+12
AC20(MW Breastplate)So our Dex fighter loses 2 points of damage and 1 of AC, but gains 2 points of touch AC, 2 points of initiative, and a 30' movement rate instead of 20.
Honestly one could also drop Str to 13 and bump Wis to 12 to get +1 on Will saves too.
+4 DEX, +3 Power Attack, +2 Weapon Specialisation, I'm only d10+9 for the damage roll. Have you accidentally added the Strength bonus as well?
Plus a DEX build requires more feats than a STR, so they could easily shore up the initiative difference with Improved Initiative.|
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Maybe I missed someone saying it - but you can actually get TWF with dex to damage already, though it takes several feats and a dip into swashbuckler. (The 1st level of swashbuckler is awesome anyway.)
Swashbuckler finesse
Prof: Sawtoothed sabre
WF: Sawtoothed sabre
Slashing Grace: Sawtoothed sabre
TWF
Done. And while both Prof & WF with the sabre are required, I'm not sure if they qualify as feat taxes since they're both useful in their own right. But yes - it doesn't come online until level 3. (Swash 1 / Fighter 2)
The DPR is significantly superior to a two-handed fighter starting at level 5-6 when the static bonuses start giving the edge to the TWF, (Weapon training / Weapon Spec etc.) especially since this build can dump strength while the two-handed build still needs decent dex.
And that doesn't count all of the secondary benefits of a dex build. (initiative/reflex/AC etc)
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RPG Superstar 2011 Top 32
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+4 DEX, +3 Power Attack, +2 Weapon Specialisation, I'm only d10+9 for the damage roll. Have you accidentally added the Strength bonus as well?
Plus a DEX build requires more feats than a STR, so they could easily shore up the initiative difference with Improved Initiative.
Power attack with a 2 handed weapon at BAB 4 is -2/+6.
I'm not sure I have a dog in this fight I just wanted to build a Dex to damage guy real quick to see what the numbers were actually like.
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I think you may need to watch a few more martial arts movies yourself, as most of the heros from that tend to be ripped. They aren't built like body builders, but no one who actually fights as their living is. Go google "Bruce Leee Shirtless," or "Jackie Chan shirtless." Those are not the bodies of a low strength characters.Just because they tend to be ripped doesn't mean they need to be. People who dedicate themselves to martial arts tend to work out, but that doesn't mean they are any less effective when age starts to sap the strength. Like I said, ask an 80 year black belt whether or not he needs strength to take you out. Just because it is best demonstrated with monk like characters doesn't change the fact that dex can be used to inflict damage just like strength.
Yes - a martial artist still needs strength. Why do you think the UFC has weight classes?
Sure - that 80 year old black belt master can still take out Joe Schmo. But he wouldn't have a chance against his 30 year old black belt student, despite being more knowledgable in whatever martial art.
As they say - "A good big man will always beat a good little man." I've even heard that said of Bruce Lee by his contemperaries. Was he a badass? Yes. But he was a small badass. In a real fight - I doubt he'd have had much of a chance against a highly skilled/fit 240lb guy.
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+4 DEX, +3 Power Attack, +2 Weapon Specialisation, I'm only d10+9 for the damage roll. Have you accidentally added the Strength bonus as well?
Plus a DEX build requires more feats than a STR, so they could easily shore up the initiative difference with Improved Initiative.Power attack with a 2 handed weapon at BAB 4 is -2/+6.
I'm not sure I have a dog in this fight I just wanted to build a Dex to damage guy real quick to see what the numbers were actually like.
Ah, that's what I was missing, the builds are level 4.
You know i have no problem with Str to AC, actually it makes much more sense than charisma to ac
As long as it suffers a similar number of drawbacks as DEX to damage does I'd be ok with it.
Dexterity represents coordination and agility in Pathfinder. Nowhere in the rules does it have anything to do with speed. Indeed, the only stats related to speed normally are Con for running endurance, and Str for being able to leap higher and farther.Con would just affect how long you can run fast, and str would just be how far you can leap. Check out chases as this is the best indicator of speed.
http://www.d20pfsrd.com/gamemastering/other-rules/chases
Unless the chase involves climbing, dex is the biggest indicator on who can run faster.
The Str fighter can turn a miss on a weak point into a hit by brutally smashing through defenses and armor, where a weak person can't force the issue. It's sort of a Hardness argument...do you really expect someone with a 20 Dex to do +5 damage against a wall?No, I would expect any dex to damage feat would involve precision damage. I am not sure the rules regarding precision damage and hardness. I am also thinking about is martial arts and bricks. Dex or Wisdom is used to break those bricks, not strength. It is worth considering whether or not dex should beat hardness, but this is really clouding the issue.
The adage in the martial arts world that a skilled big man will beat an equally skilled (and presumably more dexterous) smaller man has endured for centuries.I don't know what your experience with martial arts is, but mine has taught me differently. With unskilled combatants you are absolutely correct, but skill tends to remove the size advantage.
Also, armor endured for centuries because armor worked. The thing that killed armor was not the invention of the rapier...it was gunpowder,This is an excellent point, but I have a different conclusion. The reason armor endured for centuries and armor worked was because for the average soldier armor was far superior. With 5 or 10 point buys, armored fighters should win everytime, but with 20, 25, or 30...
Con affects how far you can run in a round over multiple rounds.
Strength's leaping ability is a pure application of power...you need speed to gain height, height translates to more distance.Strength is the stat of power, so is the primary driver of speed. All other things equal...yeah, I'll agree Dex guy goes faster. All other things being equal, Strength guy will go faster, too. Look at Bolt, fastest guy in the world. He is STRONG. He has high strength to weight ratio. That's the driver of power and speed.
Breaking a brick has nothing to do with Dex or Wisdom. It has to do with skill. This is a common misconception of the 'dex-wisher' crowd. Dex does not make you hit harder.
Good big man beats good little man is an adage that has held true for thousands of years. Skilled little man beats unskilled big man, yep, I'll agree with that. Now Enlarge that little man and have him fight himself. Advantage to the bigger guy with equal skill, due to strength, reach, weight. Weight classes exist for a reason! You have to have excessive amounts of skill over your opponent to beat a trained person bigger then you in real life...which comes down to a level difference, not a stat difference.
Armor on guys with high dex who wear armor do better then guys without Dex who wear armor. Why? Because incidental and lucky hits kill you when you don't have armor on. Fighting Dex style limits combat options. IT isn't until you get to gunpowder, which totally ignored armor and destroyed its usefulness in any real fight, that Dex style fighting started to rise. Strong guys can wear armor. If you have armor that can withstand firearms, you wear it, it doesn't matter what your dex is. Automatic weapons don't care about your dex, either. Soldiers wear tac vests for reasons!
(And as an aside, swashbuckler stems from at least the 15th century, not the 19th. 'Swash' refers to a style of swagger used by professional mercenaries showing off as they strutted around, with their bucklers slung at their side. It may not be the source of the term, but it existed back then. Romantic popular appropriation of the term probably started in the 19th, however.).
Just look at UFC fighters...some of the best modern melee combatants in the world. Early on, nobody knew how to fight Brazilian jiu-jitsu, and a master of it was beating men fifty pounds heavier then he was. What happened? The big men learned Brazilian jiu-jitsu. You don't see guys in the rings taking on people 50 lbs heavier anymore...the skills passed on, and the bigger men will dominate the smaller men (by weight) if there's more then a 10-15 lb difference. Look how narrow some of the boxing weight classes are. That's because there's a distinct statistical advantage to being bigger then your opponent.
The best treatment of size I've seen in modern anime is Attack of the Titans. The giants literally wiped out most of the human race...their size was simply that much of an advantage. They slam through human troops, even very skilled human troops...only the best of the best can kill them, and its an excessive skill factor, not a dex factor that does it, and they are always strong for their size. The Titans are terrifying foes, even the shorter ones.
But that's injecting anime into the real world! Shame on me. :)
==Aelryinth
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Early on, nobody knew how to fight Brazilian jiu-jitsu, and a master of it was beating men fifty pounds heavier then he was.
I will interject here - that UFC is just about THE optimum environment for a grappler, and the reason that they were dominant early until the stand-up fighters learned counters.
1v1 (You simply can't take on more than one opponent with grappling if they have ANY skill.)
No weapons. (As reach & deadliness increase, grappling becomes less useful.) Even a brick wall to smash someone's head against would be handy vs a smaller grappler.
All of the really vicious moves aren't allowed. The standard 1v1 boxer vs wrestler is a matter of if the boxer can hurt the wrestler badly enough before the wrestler can close the distance, and the boxer can't do the moves that could hurt the wrester quickly. (eye gouging / knee capping / neck shots / groin etc) Also - if you watch them, to get those locks, the grapplers in UFC often leave their necks wide open to being elbowed/bitten or their eyes gouged. But for obvious reasons - that's not allowed.
Frankly - probably the most classic of the old UFC Brazilian jiu-jitsu fights was against a guy who knew American Kenpo. As a practictioner myself, I can tell you, American Kenpo is normally all about fighting 'dirty'. Heck - there's a sub-set which specializes in eye-gouging. So basically - for that fight he was gimped.
Its funny that everyone points to the advantages of dex, but nobody seems to realize how little those bonuses matter to a guy in full plate. Initiative? I'm wearing plate so my flat footed ac doesn't matter. Going first? Don't care, I have to wait for buffs anyway. High acrobatics? Doesn't matter because a high score doesn't help outside of combat and it certainly doesn't matter in combat due to maneuver scaling. What does that leave, reflex saves? Fine, buy lightning reflexes with those feats you didn't have to spend.
Its funny that everyone points to the advantages of dex, but nobody seems to realize how little those bonuses matter to a guy in full plate. Initiative? I'm wearing plate so my flat footed ac doesn't matter. Going first? Don't care, I have to wait for buffs anyway. High acrobatics? Doesn't matter because a high score doesn't help outside of combat and it certainly doesn't matter in combat due to maneuver scaling. What does that leave, reflex saves? Fine, buy lightning reflexes with those feats you didn't have to spend.
The barbarian, ranger, bloodrager, slayer, people who can't afford full plate yet, people who would rather wear mithral medium armor, are just a few examples of characters that could be strength based and would benefit greatly.
Just because you're strength based doesn't mean you can wear full plate. Or that you want to.
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Its funny that everyone points to the advantages of dex, but nobody seems to realize how little those bonuses matter to a guy in full plate. Initiative? I'm wearing plate so my flat footed ac doesn't matter. Going first? Don't care, I have to wait for buffs anyway. High acrobatics? Doesn't matter because a high score doesn't help outside of combat and it certainly doesn't matter in combat due to maneuver scaling. What does that leave, reflex saves? Fine, buy lightning reflexes with those feats you didn't have to spend.
Four things -
1 - Even with lightning reflexes, a strength build's refelx save will be nowhere near a dex build's.
2 - If the character is going fighter, he can easily get 5-6 points of dex to AC with mithril full plate combined with armor training.
3 - If he's not a fighter, he can use a mithril breastplate. He won't have higher AC (max AC at only 1 point higher than standard full plate) but he'll have far more mobility and speed. Not to mention having much higher touch AC.
4 - Even a strength build should have a min. of 12 to max out AC with full plate. A dex build can totally dump strength as the only thing they use from it is encumbrance. (multiple ways to solve pretty easily)
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2 - If the character is going fighter, he can easily get 5-6 points of dex to AC with mithril full plate combined with armor training.Not if he is dumping str.
Yes you can - just grab some Muleback Cords before buying the mithril full plate. Heck - even a halfling with a strength of 5 would be fine with those. (I wouldn't reccomend dumping it that much for fear of shadows etc - though with a high dex they wouldn't hit your touch AC as often.)
http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic-items/wondrous-items/wondrous-items/m-p/muleb ack-cords
Edit: For some reason - it keeps adding an extra space in 'muleback' in the link - make sure to erase it.
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2 - If the character is going fighter, he can easily get 5-6 points of dex to AC with mithril full plate combined with armor training.Not if he is dumping str and pnaing to use dex to damage (and not sucking at saves so no muleback cords)
Okay - be a halfling with a strength of 8. You can carry 20lbs. Small mithril full plate is 12.5lbs. You're fine.
Or just get ant haul somehow.
Really? Weak arguments guys. The point is that the advantages are far outstripped by the investment cost of dex builds AND the guy in heavier armor doesn't care about those benefits the way the dexterity character does. Unless your saying that they both have the same flat footed ac? Reflex saves are where the dexterity character really benefits, and they are paying a huge cost for it.
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Really? Weak arguments guys. The point is that the advantages are far outstripped by the investment cost of dex builds AND the guy in heavier armor doesn't care about those benefits the way the dexterity character does. Unless your saying that they both have the same flat footed ac? Reflex saves are where the dexterity character really benefits, and they are paying a huge cost for it.
2 things -
1. I don't think that the current dex to damage feats are too OP. Dervish dance is limited to a single weapon and keeps you from using a shield. The slashing grace/sawtoothed sabre combo is expensive, (Dip into swashbuckler plus multiple feats) only leading to being OP at higher levels. Since I very rarely play into the double digits, it doesn't really bother me too much.
2. Getting dex to damage for a single feat (either in addition to or especially instead of finesse) is quite certainly EXTREMELY OP.
We have different opinions on what constitutes overpowered in pathfinder. The ONLY way to out damage a two handed build is a class dip and at least three feats for dex to damage and then three more for two weapon fighting... And the funny thing is its still worse when you have to move. That sounds like the opposite of op to be honest.
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We have different opinions on what constitutes overpowered in pathfinder. The ONLY way to out damage a two handed build is a class dip and at least three feats for dex to damage and then three more for two weapon fighting... And the funny thing is its still worse when you have to move. That sounds like the opposite of op to be honest.
That's why I said that I DIDN'T think that it was very OP as it stands. (and the reason it's somewhat OP at higher levels has more to do with all of the secondary advantages you keep ignoring than raw DPR)
I'm not really ignoring them so much as looking at what those benefits actually are. Poor returns on early levels(the ones that actually see play) for advantages in the late game (the ones that don't) doesn't seem like a trade up to me.
It's never been just about the damage. Nobody's going to argue the dex guy is going to outdamage a 2h guy.
They will argue he will outdamage another 1h weapon guy. And have a better AC, be able to max out his armor/dex limit, be a MUCH better archer, have great initiative, superb Reflex saves...and bonuses to a whole handful of skills.
Flat footed AC isn't as muc problem for dex guy when he's got initiative to the moon, also. And his flat footed AC is going to be, what, 2, 3 pts behind? Tops? A high Touch AC is generally just far more useful then a high flat footed AC.
That's what you're comparing it to, not 'every fighter is a 2h guy'.
Introduce a couple of feats that give a Str guy the utility of the Dex guy, and everything evens out and everyone is happy. You can even penalize the Str guy for being in heavy armor, if you like.
Except that's not getting done.
==Aelryinth
very good point, Void. Although archer fighters and swashbucklers will love it.
==Aelryinth
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2. Getting dex to damage for a single feat (either in addition to or especially instead of finesse) is quite certainly EXTREMELY OP.How so? Make a character that is OP to demonstrate, and I will make a more effective Str build. Even if you give dex to attack and damage for free, Str builds are at least just as effective, if not more. The only stipulation I would post is one preventing dex builds from using dex and a half with a two handed weapon like elven curved blade.
Fine - I'll split the difference and have weapon finesse inherently give dex to damage. (though as others have stated - the exercise is a bit silly)
Level 5 human figher (don't want to deal with iterative). 15 point buy. (Please also make a fighter so that it's a comparison of str vs dex builds instead of a comparison of classes - I could have made it super easy with a monk)
Str: 9
Dex: 20(22)
Con: 14
Int: 10
Wis: 12
Cha: 7
Feats: Super Weapon Finesse!! / TWF / WF heavy shield / WS heavy shield / Double Slice / Shield Bash / Shield Focus
Traits: Shield-trained (heavy shields count as light weapons) / +1 Will save trait
Gear: +1 Mithril breastplate / Bashing heavy spiked shield x 2 / belt of dex +2
Int: +6
Ref:+7
Fort:+6
Will:+3
AC: 27
Movement: 30ft
Attack: +13/+13 for 2d6+11(x2 crit) damage each - average of 18.9 damage each
It seems to me that Dex fighting is more about getting a hit in the right place than hitting hard, suggesting that it might be modeled more by criticals than raw damage. Someone suggested precision damage, but I think the rules for that go the wrong way (in that they apply to every hit but aren't multiplied by crits).
One could start increasing the crit range, but simply adding the Dex bonus to that will just roflstomp all over Improved Critical.
How about adding the Dex bonus to the crit confirmation roll? It's nice and simple.
Try some numbers. Suppose, as a 6th level rogue, you crit on 18-20/x2 on a basic 1d6+5 damage (+2 rapier, 14 Str, Prayer) and have 20 Dex. Getting a crit is +8.5 damage. If you need 11 to hit, you'd normally crit on 3/40 hits for 3/40*8.5 = +0.6375 damage.
Adding your Dex bonus means you crit 25% more often, which adds 0.32 damage per attack. That's pathetic: 0.06 damage per point of dex bonus.
It works out as DexBonus x CritRange x (Multiplier-1) x AvgDamage / 400
5 x 3 x (2-1) x 8.5 / 400 = 0.31875
So, a mid-level 14 Dex barbarian doing 2d6+20 with a keen greatsword gains 2 x 4 x 1 x 27 / 400 = 0.54. Again, pretty negligible.
So not worth a feat. On the other hand, it's not going to break anything to give it free to everyone. And it's quite tasty for crit-fishers looking to disable.