@Dead Phoenix - Unless I've missed something Signature Deed (Twin Shot Knockdown) would allow you to knock opponents prone without spending any grit. Either way it isn't critical for the DPR calculations and could be swapped out to cover anything else which seems more important, useful, or amusing.
Yes, you are correct about knocking creatures prone for free(at least ones that can be knocked prone), but other then that giving you a -4 on all attack rolls on them afterward which may or may not be an issue for your later attacks, your damage included the Up Close and Deadly dice(unless I was just reading it wrong). Every time you use Up Close and Deadly it costs 1 grit with out Signature Deed on it, so the additional 4d6 damage you had listed would only get used a handful of times per day before you had to be completely dependent on building grit back up by criting or killing enemies(which is only giving you 1 grit at a time).
That set up is probably really good for supporting a bunch of melee allies, but you won't be doing the kind of damage people are complaining about with the pistolero, but you are still a gunslinger who cannot misfire so you should be still doing decent numbers.
I had some free time so I took my musket master build and found a few mistakes but none that would affect DPR.
What I did this time around was to make it go against normal AC. I assumed that the misfire mechanic was still in play, but also part of flavor so I gave it a +2 reliable musket. In this case reliable removes all misfire chances. Yes, I am aware that this is not how it works by RAW or RAI.
I did however keep dex to damage.
normal
11 38.61 hasted 61.13
12 hasted
13 hasted
14 hasted
15 hasted
rapid shot
11 48.26 hasted 69.71
12 hasted
13 hasted
14 hasted
15 hasted
RS+deadly aim
11 42.24 hasted 65.81
13 hasted
14 hasted
15 hasted
Compare to my crossbow build which kept the touch AC mechanic, but dropped the dex to damage.
The damage had dropped off by a lot, and is quiet poor IMHO for an 11 level build.
If this build is to compete it will require some class ability it will need bonuses to hit, and to damage. Guns are basically no better than crossbows without some special rules to prop them up it seems.
A two weapon build would do more damage but then you get into requiring two guns and "free action shenanigans".
Conclusion: allow dex to damage, and give the gunslinger a way to overcome the misfire chance before level 7( I prefer 5). In addition give it a bonus to attack and damage.
A simple +3 at level 11(with haste in play) pushed it to 99.45. If haste is not in play 69.42.
I think for Jodakai he might like this DPR. The question now becomes for those that don't care for ranged attacks, how much less damage is ok for someone who can almost full attack every round vs someone who is more limited. <-----Now this should be its own topic in my opinion.
Why did I do this experiment?
I don't like the misfire as a balancing mechanic.
PS: On the crossbow build I think I sunk almost every feat into DPR. If I could take weapon spec(fighter only feat) which is not legal and the other feats in this feat tree it would help some, but I would have the same situation as the crossbow build.
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I think nobody likes misfires as a balancing mechanic, even the ones who really like gunslingers have admitted this. Its way to random mechanically and by fluff is way too close to selective realism.
Wraith, your recomendations have already been actually applied by Cyrad. He made a pretty good document for some quickfixes for gunslinger. I really like it because it doesnt change that much but it fixes some annoying mechanics.
Firearms rules are pretty badly designed... They got a major advantage that makes no sense (It's easier to dodge bullets than it's to find armor that can stop them) and to compensate, got so many awful disadvantages that they became the worst weapon in the game (it takes a whole class devoted to using firearms to make them useful).
Firearms are so horrible that it doesn't even make sense that peoplw would stick withong enough for gunslingers to exist.
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Firearms are so horrible that it doesn't even make sense that peoplw would stick withong enough for gunslingers to exist.
The main problem is firearms should be simple weapons, not exotic. Pathfinder Devs wanted exotic to represent the training required to maintain the weapon and scarceness in Golarion, not the difficulty in handling.
Targeting touch AC isn't a bad mechanic and makes sense. People started using guns because they could puncture armor and required little training to be effective. Rather than clunking down the game with gn reducing armor to AC or something like past systems, Paizo simply made it target touch within the first range increment, and had far shorter range increments than bows to represent the inaccuracy of early firearms.
From my experience, the only mechanical flaw in firearms is the ability to negate misfires completely and that you cannot add Dex to damage unless you're a gunslinger (but this is an over reaching issue in pathfinder that covers the crossbow as well). But negating misfires makes firearms, in the hands of a firearm using build such as a pistolero, ridiculously overpowered.
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The thing is to create something and make them in a that nobody wants to use (to prevent them beign used in golarion) and then create a class completely devoted to firearms is totally counterproductive. The whole point of the gunslinger is to try to cope with the whole annoying mechanics of firearms, thats really not a good way to design a class. The gunslinger is the only class designed around an specific kind of weapon, is like creating a class named "archer" or "swordman" ,in this regard it depends compltely on the options in weapons presented.
Targeting touch AC is a fine mechanic, wizards use it, but it has been poorly handled in my opinion. The problem is that the impact of misfires is difficult to understand. If you get +2 to damage is easy to understand, if you get -1 to hit its easy to understand, misfires are not, its very difficult to reflect them unless you have a really good understanding of dpr, math and mechanics. This tends to get gunslinger misunderstood and often banned from games, when the real problem, in my opinion, are double firearms .
On the contrary: I loved the randomness of misfires. My DM didn't, so he gifted me with a reliable rifle with a zero chance of misfires. But I liked them. Not as a balancing mechanic, but as a fluff thing. ;)
I like the flavor also. That is why in my last example I made reliable eliminate misfires.
I think nobody likes misfires as a balancing mechanic, even the ones who really like gunslingers have admitted this. Its way to random mechanically and by fluff is way too close to selective realism.
Wraith, your recomendations have already been actually applied by Cyrad. He made a pretty good document for some quickfixes for gunslinger. I really like it because it doesnt change that much but it fixes some annoying mechanics.
Thanks. I wilk look at his suggestions.
Mmm, I think I hit a nerve. Sorry, wraithstrike. Look, at the very least I think you and Judokai agree on more than you disagree on for this topic. And I think you agree on where the major issues lie.
I mean, for my part I had also been saying from the start that combining Dex to damage with attacking touch AC was the issue. For my part I feel sufficiently vindicated that the numbers tend to agree. I'll bow out of the actual conversation now and just watch at the sidelines.
Also, I don't actually wanna see two dudes kissing. Figure of speech, I swear!
I think the biggest problem with the firearm rules is the reloading. Downgrading time works as full-round->Move->Free when it should be Full-Round->Move->Swift.
That would fix a lot of the issues right there :)
After the first round of attacks, you would only ever be able to make a single attack per round, making it so the only difference between a swift and move action for reloading is the ability to move in the same round. Unless you completely changed the way guns did damage, they would become the worse weapon in the game(even more so then they are now) and you would also make crossbow nearly as worthless(at least they don't need to worry about misfires). And then you'd maybe even get people arguing this should apply to bows as well... So if your plan is to make range combat worthless, this would indeed fix all of your issues with it.
Mmm, I think I hit a nerve. Sorry, wraithstrike. Look, at the very least I think you and Judokai agree on more than you disagree on for this topic. And I think you agree on where the major issues lie.
Agreeing partially is not the same as agreeing, and you have not hit a nerve. Do I need to post where HE said the gunslinger was a problem and I said it was not?
You are also not reading his post. He really dislikes being able to attack any other target after the first one from range, which is what ranged combatants do. I can deal with the touch AC + dex, but I dont like misfire.
I would prefer the gunslinger be able to do consistent damage without the misfire as a mechanic for balance. Even if we drop misfire and keep the gunslinger at say 120 DPR he will still not like it.
@Jodakai Would you like 120 DPR if the misfire mechanic is gone?
Oh for the love of...
wraithstrike: Agreeing partially is a form of agreement. And that was what I was referring to. It is almost like you are arguing for the sake of argument now. It may behoove you to find places where you can agree on rather than focusing on the negative.
I did read his post. I didn't get the same thing out of it as you did. To me it sounded like he was saying that regardless of how much damage a Barbarian (example) can do when full attacking that in play the ranged attacker comes out more powerful if he can down a foe and move on to another. Even if he only barely downs the first foe and just simply scratches the second foe. The Barbarian could do 1 BILLION damage but the everything past their HP+1 goes to waste.
I don't think he has a problem with that per se, I think he was just pointing out that when comparing numbers on DPR meters that often people forget to take gameplay into consideration.
And I agree with him on that point. I think you do too.
I don't think his point is "OMGZ Ranged ppl are broken, where iz mah nerf stick?!" Of course, if that is what he meant then I will allow him to correct me and retract my agreement. ;)
When you said we agree I took it as "complete agreement", and you have been on these boards long enough to know that one must be careful how things are worded. If you only mean partial agreement then yes that is fine.
I agree with him that being able to use all of your potential DPR more often favors a ranged character. I even admitted to this.
He however also stated that as a reason as to why a gunslinger is broken to which I do not agree. So yeah we agree on some things. Now I think we all agree on this much. :)
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I would agree with swift action reload only AND ONLY IF the gunslinger got some scaling damage on the guns, for example get someting like pummeling style for guns, minus the critical thing. That would keep his damage on part with other ranged attackers, they have done something similar with the elementalist. It would probably make some people happy, the ones who believe reloading that fast is breaking verosimiltude.
Edit: This is almost impossible tought, paizo has stated numerous time they refuse to redo the gun stats and rules even tought its been pointed that this should have been done a long time ago, even before gunslingers existed. Hopefully it may be adressed if Unchained 2 happens
If you want to fire more than once per round you need to pack multiple pistols. I wouldn't be adverse to upping the damage a little bit though (Give gunslingers a bonus to damage based on level?). However, same as I don't complain that a greatsword does more damage than a dagger, I wouldn't have a problem with a black powder weapon firing slower than a bow.
Alright, so my, lets say, level 11 gunslinger would have to fire 4(i'm assuming rapid shot still works) guns, drop three of them on the ground, and reload the last one. on his next turn he then what? fire his next 4 guns? pick up all his guns and reloads then over the next 2 turn so maybe he can full attack again on round 4? Also, all these guns are doing crap damage because paying to upgrade at least 4 weapons, plus paying for the already expensive guns and bullets, is absolutely ridiculous. If you want to make them comparable to the damage other weapons can pull off they will need WAY more then just +level and dex to damage.
Its to bad they didn't give guns an armor piercing value like they originally had in JJ's Unspoken Futures... then the only issue(HA! In my dreams maybe.) would be double barreled dual wielding BS(easily fixed).
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Though I understand and appreciated the design team's decision to have guns target touch AC, it is definitely odd a bullet bypasses Dragon Scale, Adamantium, and Mithril as easily as Leather Armor. Having a house rule that says guns target touch AC unless the opponent is wearing +3 armor, Adamantium, Mithril, or exceptional scales such as Dragons makes sense to me and won't hurt a gunslinger as much as some of the more drastic changes proposed here.
You could then add a free deed / replacement for Deadeye that lets gunslingers target touch against enemies in these armors.
I actually complain about the dagger doing less damage than a greatsword. I believe players shouldnt be penalized for wanting to play an specific trope.It isn't as if there is a major difference between the two, a +3 holy bane dagger wielded by a smiting paladin using power attack in two hands for 1d4 + 40 + 4d6 does on average about 93% of the damage a similar greatsword similarly wielded for 2d6 + 40 + 4d6 does; and the dagger is easier to throw, lighter, and can do slashing OR piercing damage. Sure at lower levels there might be a difference between the dagger and the greatsword but comparisons were only valid at level 15+. /sarc
Can't two hand a dagger.
Ooooh, now I see the sarcasm slashie...
Regarding getting rid of free action reloads, the Dead Shot deed gives Gunslingers a way to combine multiple attacks into a single bullet. Unfortunately Dead Shot seems kind of pathetic compared to just making multiple attacks, especially since it costs a grit point. If reloading an early firearm (or barrel thereof) were changed to always cost at least a swift action but Dead Shot were improved to the point where it was worthwhile that might be a pretty sound solution to a lot of Gunslinger complaints and worries.
My "improvements" might include making Dead Shot a deed you can perform whenever you have at least 1 grit point left. I'd also give you the normal bonus damage for each attack roll which hits in addition to the base damage. If folks felt that allowing multiple attacks to be made at full BAB was too powerful I guess that applying a flat or progressive attack penalty for additional attacks wouldn't be too complicated since a similar mechanic already exists for critical hits.
This would give us a situation where the Gunslinger can make as many attacks as his or her BAB would normally allow. I got the impression that's sort of what Paizo's 3 free action per round FAQ was aiming for. This might be a way to achieve something similar without affecting bows. I'd still hope to see "double shots" limited to a standard action to help limit Quick Draw and multiple limb antics. All that together would probably tone things down significantly but leave the Gunslinger capable of producing a decent amount of very consistent DPR.
I think the build I posted earlier was doing around 40 damage per shot. At 15th level the DPR would be around 120. At 16th it would be around 160. I think that getting really hefty damage out of a single shot with a comparatively slow rate of fire seems very thematically appropriate for early firearms.
@Dead Phoenix - The build I posted had Signature Deed (Up Close and Deadly) at 7th level. I guess maybe you're saying that you can only take Signature Deed once. I didn't notice that before, but replacing Signature Deed (Twin Shot Knockdown) with some other feat wouldn't reduce the DPR a bit, and you could always spend a point of grit to knock the foe prone if it was a sound tactical decision. Maybe you'd reuse the feat for Extra Grit.
Why not just use Clustered Shots like everyone else?
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@devilkiller-Deadshot is a terrible deed. Actually the problem is that 70% of the deeds are pretty underwhelming and almost all grit feats are useless. Sure gunslingers get some really good ones but most of them plainly suck and doesnt synergize at all. There are some you may never ever use considering how small grit pools are you will only use deeds which are worth it. Deadshot? right it reads "use only when you have a single bullet", and even so vital strike stomps it.
I would really like the focus was more on the deeds and less on touch AC + dex to damage, but this is not how it works as of now. You have 2 options level 5 gunslinger or lvl 11 gunslinger
(for signature deed), else you are wasting resources.
@kaisc006. There are a lot of people who have been trying to fix the class. The problem is that for this you have to redi the whole firearms mechanics which is plainly complicated. Most fixes include quite some large documentation. Best "quickfixes" are to give +5 to hit or -5 to armor instead of plain touch and eliminate/tone down misfires
@ElementalXX - Maybe it wasn't clear, but I was suggesting making changes to Dead Shot so that it wouldn't be so terrible and might serve as a surrogate for free action reloading. If using your +5/-5 suggestion I'd probably go with the -5 to armor since that wouldn't paradoxically make it easier to hit stuff which has high touch AC. Honestly I think ignoring up to 10 points of combined armor and natural armor might still blunt the DPR pretty well. If you wanted to get really fancy I guess the gun could bypass an amount equal to its maximum base damage so that big guns would be better at blasting through armor. That's a little more complex though and wouldn't help out with other touch attacks (though if folks are only worried about guns maybe that's a bonus)
@Lune - If free action reloads were ruled out it might be difficult to make multiple attacks (though obviously you could just whip out a bunch of pistols Blackbeard style)
Devilkiller: I understand and don't have an issue with it. Also, if you have a gun with multiple rounds loaded ahead of time you can still full attack with that gun.