I thought one ton was 1000lbs.
2000 lb per Ton. You might be thinking Kilo's?
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2000 lb per Ton. You might be thinking Kilo's?
Sometimes I really hate imperial measurements.
Bump
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So, right now, the Aether Kineticist can move 100 lbs per level. That's 1 ton,
I guess you are missing a "at 20th level" somewhere around here. Because at 20th level it would be 2000lbs and that's really a ton.
Would be interesting how many kineticists you would need to carry the ship they are on and how fast they could make it go. But right now I don't have the time to look up ship weights and so on. And I'm not sure if there is anything stated about how careful the force a kineticist used is to the stuff he lifts. Ships tend to be rather fragile when it comes to lifting them.
I suggested in a previous thread, that the kineticist should use his Constitution as effective Strength to move objects and carrying capacity.
For immaterial (or almost) elements, we could use a fixed volume instead of pounds, like a cubic foot.
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Pretty much every ability your discussing is a copy of a wizard spell (telekinesis, floating disk, and mage hand for Aether, Control winds for air, move earth for earth, control water for water, and I couldn't really find anything for fire that involved moving or lifting objects). All of these things, team wizard/sorcerer can already do.
Also stop getting your physics in my Pathfinder!
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the Hydro can manage a whopping 128 cubes (someone check my math)
40 squares wide x 40 squares long x 8 squares tall is 12800 cubes
or(200ft x 200ft x 40ft)*(1 cube / 125ft^3) = 12800 cubes
200ft x 200ft x 40ft x 62 lb/ft^3 for water at 32F x 1ton/2000lb = 49600 tons
49600 tons is 99200000 pounds. Let's multiply that by 4.448 to get Newtons because it's easier. That's 441.2 MN of force. Divide by 9.81 to get 44974 kg of mass. You can move the water to another location in range, that's 1200 feet. Let's be nice and say you move it 1000 feet (304.8 meters) in the air. Potential energy is Mass*Height*GravityConstant, or 44974 kg*304.8m*9.81m/s^2 = 134477760 kgm^2/s^2 = 134 megajoules (MJ) of energy. If you could convert that to electricity with even a 33% energy efficiency, you could power 1 American home for a full year. With a single standard action.
Flood caves, crush houses, transport large amounts of aquatic creatures. With just a few standard actions and some pain, you too can wipe out pretty much anything you wanted.
Pretty much every ability your discussing is a copy of a wizard spell (telekinesis, floating disk, and mage hand for Aether, Control winds for air, move earth for earth, control water for water, and I couldn't really find anything for fire that involved moving or lifting objects). All of these things, team wizard/sorcerer can already do.
Actually Water Manipulation is different than Control Water is that you can instead move an equivalent amount of water to another place in range. Which is kind of a big deal :P
Hydrokineticist: Do you even lift, bro?
I'm picturing a pirate campaign with a hydrokineticist now... ugh. So much wreck. Ship wreck. *Wink wink nudge nudge*
Honestly, I think that if a hydro can move that much water, a tele and a geo should be able to lift much more than they do. I think the reason why telekineticists can't lift as much in comparison is because they can move a wider variety of things. Therefore, being more versatile.
Pyros are pretty much boned all around.
Aeros aren't strong, but they have the potential for insane range and speed. So I'm cool with them not conjuring tornadoes to carry away cities.
Also, note, the different kineticists aren't meant to be equal in every aspect. They are meant to excel in different areas. Why would I want to play reskinned versions of the telekineticist, like if they could all lift 2000 lbs and all have just reskinned abilities?
But, I feel geos should have good defense and offense, but be slow.
Hydro should have a balance of defense and speed. But have less offenses.
Pyros should be offense and uh...?
Aeros should be range and speed, but have weaker defenses.
Imo
To achieve the feats shown in several fictions (SW, Avatar, Carrie, Fairy Tail...) the carrying capacity must be greatly increased. Pillars of stone, cars, blocks of ice, people, it all has been lifted in those references.
I believe a focused kineticist should be far better than a wizard at lifting his chosen element, . 5 lb./2 levels is very lame, and 100 lbs./ level still won't do.
Moving lot of matter could be tiring, and even limiting like when under medium/heavy load, but should be something at the identity of this class.
All I'm saying is that there should be some kind of rule that keeps hyrdokineticists from wrecking everything. A speed per round limitation that is less than potentially 2400ft at level 20, and/or a maximum number of rounds per day or maximum amount of rounds at a time or something. Because otherwise I'm going to carry 12800 cubes of water from the lake/ocean/sea to my next adventuring spot. Have my cleric friend keep me from being fatigued. When I get there, I'm going to use those 12800 cubes (still 102 cubes at level 4) and drop them on my foe. Or drop them on/in his lair. GM intervention shouldn't be required to keep a player from using a single 4th level ability to break the game.
there's a perfectly good rule that prevents that: you aren't going to have all of your adventures at sea or in a river or lake. More than any other option, you're going to be underground in some ancient ruins. Not a lot of water there.
And you can only effect an area of water that is (at 20th level) 200'x200'x40' (per control water). Not sure how you're moving 2400' a round, since you're taking a standard action every round to maintain control of all that water (per water manipulator).
And that's not even talking about anything or anyone who's gonna be pissed for having you drag that much water over their land/fields/cities.
Surely another system to carry element is required, and it should be able to move massive amounts of it. To prevent abuse, it should be tiring and slow to move that much stuff. But consider that pretty much every full caster can break the game at that level, causing cataclysms that can destroy a city.
there's a perfectly good rule that prevents that: you aren't going to have all of your adventures at sea or in a river or lake.
Yes, but some adventures will. You can't have a class that works fine for one adventure path and is completely broken in another.
And you can only effect an area of water that is (at 20th level) 200'x200'x40' (per control water).
Perhaps you missed my post where even at 4th level you can carry 102 5ft cubes of water? That's still a crapton of water.
Not sure how you're moving 2400' a round, since you're taking a standard action every round to maintain control of all that water (per water manipulator).
That's why I said "potentially". The range limit of control water at level 20 is 1200 feet. If you pick up water at one side of the circle and move it to the other, that's 2400 feet. For rounds after that you are limited by how far you can move using your move action. But being able to go 30 ft per round, 5 ft/s (3.4 mph, pretty much walking speed) carrying hundreds of tons of anything is pretty absurd. Even faster if your base speed is faster or you are on the shoulders of a running monk or something.
And that's not even talking about anything or anyone who's gonna be pissed for having you drag that much water over their land/fields/cities.
You say "drag", but the ability says "move". Now, "move" may imply "drag", but "move" can also be any number of other modes of travel. Like lifting over and around things. Up to interpretation there. Could use some clarification, maybe.
Surely another system to carry element is required, and it should be able to move massive amounts of it. To prevent abuse, it should be tiring and slow to move that much stuff. But consider that pretty much every full caster can break the game at that level, causing cataclysms that can destroy a city.
You don't even need to be level 20. At level 10 you get 1600 cubes of water. That's more than enough to do pretty much anything short of destroy an entire city in one action. At level 4, you still get 102 cubes, almost 400 tons. 400 tons will easily destroy a house. Or fill a dungeon with water and watch everyone try to get out before they drown. The potential for the ability as it stands is /huge/ for a single ability that you can do limitless amounts of times.
The minimum level is 6, not 4 like I've been saying. That's 345 cubes and 1340 tons. My bad on that. Still though.
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The volume moved seems about right, but it's only for water currently.
102 cubes: About the volume of a small modern house;
1600 cubes: About the volume of a 6-story building;
12800 cubes: Somewhere around the volume of a 20-story building;
I do agree that it shouldn't be allowed to move freely that amount of element. When you reach that scale it should only push or pull in a barely coordinated movement that requires a great deal of concentration. Imagine how much water is moved to open a way in a river or to stopping a tsunami. Those should be doable by the class, but lifting a 20-story building and taking it around with you shouldn't. The issue, as I see, is about the measure of control that should be given, something that weakens as the volume grows.
Brilliant thread, entertainment factor above 7 tons worth of canned herring.
Thank you for your post, OP.
All of the above assumes that you don't get a caster who waits until you get close to his lands then casts control water to get rid of an equal amount. It's an interesting option, and certainly could disrupt a nautical campaign, but my guess is that no one will really even try to use it in such a way (I could certainly be wrong, however).
Let's look at other spells and effects that are in the same spell level, that people can currently cast:
Control winds: One of my all-time favorite druid spells, Control winds lets you change the winds in an area 40'/level radius, 40' high. at 18th level, you can cause tornados, which are under your control.
Cloudkill: take constitution damage, unless you are immune to poison. Kill people outright if they're low enough level.
Spikestones: cover an area with spikes that deal damage with no save for every 5' you move, that also has a chance of slowing you. and the area is 1 20' cube/caster level.
I don't need to move water across an area slowly, making myself a target: I can just make deathclouds or fields of spikes when I show up that will have a much greater effect.
It's an interesting option, and certainly could disrupt a nautical campaign, but my guess is that no one will really even try to use it in such a way (I could certainly be wrong, however).
I think you /heavily/ underestimate the desire of players to try and make use of every utility of every ability.
Let's look at other spells and effects that are in the same spell level, that people can currently cast:
...
I don't need to move water across an area slowly, making myself a target: I can just make deathclouds or fields of spikes when I show up that will have a much greater effect.
Every single thing you mentioned is limited by uses per day. Water Manipulation is limitless. Cloudkill might deal some damage to a room or kill a bunch of goblins, but Water Manip will destroy a house at level 6, and far more at higher levels. Spikestones is laughable power-wise in comparison to 345 cubes of water. Control Winds is pretty good, but no one can get that until level 9, and can't cause the same level of destruction as a 6th level hydrokineticist until level 15.
And what about moving slowly? 30 feet a round instead of 60 feet isn't really "slow". And like I said, all you need is a mount or a strong party member to carry you around and you can go as fast as them since there is currently no limitation to how fast you can move the water aside from the long range of the spell.
I really think you underestimate the destructive power of 2680000 pounds of water, especially for a level 6 character. Level 6 characters don't even have access to 4th level spells. And this is essentially a cantrip. It would be completely absurd to think that Water Manipulation doesn't need some sort of balance.
I think you /heavily/ underestimate the desire of players to try and make use of every utility of every ability.
I think that a lot of people theorycraft things like this, but it doesn't see a ton of actual table play in my experience (and to be fair I play a lot of pathfinder with fairly creative people).
Every single thing you mentioned is limited by uses per day. Water Manipulation is limitless. Cloudkill might deal some damage to a room or kill a bunch of goblins, but Water Manip will destroy a house at level 6, and far more at higher levels. Spikestones is laughable power-wise in comparison to 345 cubes of water. Control Winds is pretty good, but no one can get that until level 9, and can't cause the same level of destruction as a 6th level hydrokineticist until level 15.
oh, it's true, they're limited. But I'm also not hampered by being exhausted while trying to pull water miles away from it's starting location (situation dependant, of course). Again, I'm also not making myself a huge target by activating a spell-like every round to move water across people's territories, fields, land, mountains, cities, and what have you. I'm just the guy walking down the street.
And what about moving slowly? 30 feet a round instead of 60 feet isn't really "slow". And like I said, all you need is a mount or a strong party member to carry you around and you can go as fast as them since there is currently no limitation to how fast you can move the water aside from the long range of the spell.
Having someone carry you isn't as feasible as you think, since with their gear even a strong person is going to become at least medium encumbered while carrying you, dropping them to at least 40' a round (assuming a double move).
I really think you underestimate the destructive power of 2680000 pounds of water, especially for a level 6 character. Level 6 characters don't even have access to 4th level spells. And this is essentially a cantrip. It would be completely absurd to think that Water Manipulation doesn't need some sort of balance.
That's not even dealing with the fact that you're basically creating a lake every time you cast this spell. It's a standard to move the water, and a standard to keep the water in the place you moved it by concentrating, so you can't do both, and the water flows normally when you're not concentrating on it.
I honestly think that you're overvaluing this ability. It's cool that you can move water in addition to the effects of raise/lowering the water (from control water) but I don't think that this ability has the tsunami effect that you're hoping for. And again, people doing what you're suggesting would attact a HUGE amount of attention.
I think you /heavily/ underestimate the desire of players to try and make use of every utility of every ability.I think that a lot of people theorycraft things like this, but it doesn't see a ton of actual table play in my experience (and to be fair I play a lot of pathfinder with fairly creative people).
You obviously don’t play with the people in my city then :P
Every single thing you mentioned is limited by uses per day.
oh, it's true, they're limited. But I'm also not hampered by being exhausted while trying to pull water miles away from it's starting location (situation dependant, of course).
There are a million and one ways to overcome the need to sleep
And what about moving slowly? 30 feet a round instead of 60 feet isn't really "slow". And like I said, all you need is a mount or a strong party member to carry you around and you can go as fast as them since there is currently no limitation to how fast you can move the water aside from the long range of the spell.
Having someone carry you isn't as feasible as you think, since with their gear even a strong person is going to become at least medium encumbered while carrying you, dropping them to at least 40' a round (assuming a double move).
A gnome with a handy haversack and a small sized chain shirt weigh a total of 40+5+12=57 pounds. A 16 strength medium creature can carry 76 pounds as a light load. The monk players I’ve always played with have 18+ strength and of course huge base move speeds. For medium sized kineticists, Ant Haul lasts a hella long time for the monk and basically takes care of the problem.
That's not even dealing with the fact that you're basically creating a lake every time you cast this spell. It's a standard to move the water, and a standard to keep the water in the place you moved it by concentrating, so you can't do both, and the water flows normally when you're not concentrating on it.
I think this is where the crux of our disagreement is. By my interpretation of the rules, you can float the water in the air, and then on your turn cease concentrating and then pick up the mass of water immediately and continue to move it without it dropping enough to fall to the ground. If that’s not the intent of the ability, that needs to be made clear. Even if my interpretation is incorrect, the entire Skull and Shackles adventure, as well as significant sections of other adventures and modules, can make super use of the ability without traversing long distances. This one 6th level ability essentially wins all ship to ship combat, as well as any combat or dungeon or adventure location that takes places within a few hundred feet of some water.
From the rules for falling: "A character cannot cast a spell while falling, unless the fall is greater than 500 feet or the spell is an immediate action, such as feather fall."
A sixth level character can hold the water 640 feet in the air. So even if it drops the allowed 500 feet, you can still use a standard action to grab it and lift it back up, if the GM rules that it falls at all.
When you cease concentrating, the water flows normally,
Your quote talks about characters, not objects. I can't find a maximum distance fallen in a round for objects. It also has to fall, as per the spell description, meaning that every round you're recasting it.
as far as S&S goes, you can characters can already cast control water (which creates a whirlpool).
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When you cease concentrating, the water flows normally,
Your quote talks about characters, not objects. I can't find a maximum distance fallen in a round for objects. It also has to fall, as per the spell description, meaning that every round you're recasting it.
as far as S&S goes, you can characters can already cast control water (which creates a whirlpool).
An average object will fall about 550-600 feet in 6 seconds, depending on the objects wind resistance.
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I can definitely see element-specific lift capacity being stronger than telekinetic "lift anything" capacity. That makes perfect sense to me balance-wise.
I'm fine with a Hydro being able to create a 50,000 ton tidal wave. I like that an omega-level master of magnatism can lift an entire stadium. This is how I want fantasy to be. Fantastic.
And while it is out of balance, it's only by a coupla orders of magnitude. The 9th level spell Clashing Rocks creates "two Colossal-sized masses of rock, dirt, and stone" 30ft apart, and smashes them together. I estimate each to be at least 1,000 tons.
But a large creature (cow or horse) weighs about 1200-1400 pounds. A 20th level Telekineticist can't lift two horses, let alone their riders and gear. The Telekineticist can't even lift the average mounted party to the top of the Hydrokineticist's 50,000 ton tidal wave. This is way, way, waaaaaaaaaay underpowered.
An average object will fall about 550-600 feet in 6 seconds, depending on the objects wind resistance.
When you cease concentrating, the water flows normally,
Your quote talks about characters, not objects. I can't find a maximum distance fallen in a round for objects. It also has to fall, as per the spell description, meaning that every round you're recasting it.
as far as S&S goes, you can characters can already cast control water (which creates a whirlpool).
Precisely. The 500 feet rule is based off of approximate fall speed in 6 seconds [d=.5gt^2 = .5(32.2)(6^2) = 580 feet assuming a vacuum]. Water doesn't magically fall faster than everything else, and a standard action by definition doesn't take longer than 6 seconds.
Since I can't find anything in the pathfinder ruleset that says otherwise, 500' of falling a round it is. The water still has to fall, however. there's nothing you can do about that. So you're walking across the land, moving water into the air every round, and you don't think someone is going to notice that, or respond? Now, instead of just going to the dungeon and dealing with things there, the adventure has become you dragging water across the landscape, trying to deal with encounters that pop up in your way. At the very least, you're going to have to explain to multiple people why you're hauling this water across their lands. What are you going to do then? say "hey, so I'm taking all this water across your lands, but I'm certainly not going to drop it! unless I get exhausted and pass out! but that will never happen!". What are you going to do if they tell you to leave?
the other thing is that rules as written the water couldn't even destroy a wooden house, much less one made of stone. the most damage it could do would be 30 points of damage, which is well below the HP of a house (they have a hardness of 5, and 10 hp/inch. even assuming that the walls were 6" thick, and not a foot.) The water can't make strength checks (because the ability doesn't have a listed strength mechanic) so it can't make break DCs, and even if you do move it into a creature's square, it doesn't do damage to them (unless you drop it on them, in which case it does 5d6 with a ranged touch attack required). A creature can hold it's breath for x2 con score before making con checks to avoid drowning. That's plenty of time to get out of the area of the water, as even the average peasant has a con of 10.
so yes, you can haul around a lot of water. It just doesn't make a very good attack vector.
So you're walking across the land, moving water into the air every round, and you don't think someone is going to notice that, or respond? Now, instead of just going to the dungeon and dealing with things there, the adventure has become you dragging water across the landscape, trying to deal with encounters that pop up in your way.
Wait, let me get this straight. This is a world where PCs can be all manner of races that come under negative scrutiny. Where dragons and giants and huge magical effects and dieties are commonplace. Where entire nations are either ruled by demons or rule "beside" devils. Where guns and tech and magical boats are uncommon, but still very much exist. Where people can summon swarms of fiendish minions at the drop of a hat. And "person walking around with a big ball of water" is where you draw the line on what people are going to freak out about and make a fuss over? Yeah, if the GM didn't want you to use the ability like that, that would be a way to keep a PC from abusing the power. But really, if I was a farmer I'd probably just back the heck away from that. If I was anything short of a high powered something I'd back away from that. And one doesn't usually run across ancient dragons and powerful wizards randomly in the wilderness unless they were looking for you anyway.
Because nobody's even trying to do this and we're already starting arguments at the table. :p.
Oh believe me, I'm playtesting a hydromancer in the next couple of weeks solely because of the ideas I've had as a result of thinking about this thread :P
But yeah, I agree with removing the weaponizing ability of it in some form or fashion. I don't know if 1 cube per level is too far nerfing the other cool aspects of the ability to move mass amounts of water though. It's a tough question.
the other thing is that rules as written the water couldn't even destroy a wooden house
Wait seriously? Ok yeah. By RAW a random meteor falling out of the sky can't destroy a house either following that logic. Neither can a giant spaceship. If you're looking for a RAW answer to "what happens if I drop 50000 tons of water on something", you're out of luck and I'm honestly surprised you're even trying to argue from that perspective given how absurd it makes everything having to do with falling objects that don't have explicit rules attached to them on how they fall.
Also I can't help but think of the XKCD What-If about giant rain drops: https://what-if.xkcd.com/12/
A few orders of magnitude different, but still. Gives a good idea about what happens when a crapton of water gets dropped suddenly. In our case it just happens on a much smaller scale.
There are perfectly good rules about falling objects. a colossal object does 10d6 damage, half that if it is not particularly dense. even maxing out the damage and the GM saying that falling water bypasses the hardness of wood, you're still out of luck, at least on initial pass.
We also can't assume that the physics of our world are the same as the physics of Golarion, so we can only reasonably rely on the information that we have in the rulebooks.
Of course, rule 1 is rule 1, but if you want an answer without table variance, you have to go with what the books say.
There are perfectly good rules about falling objects. a colossal object does 10d6 damage, half that if it is not particularly dense. even maxing out the damage and the GM saying that falling water bypasses the hardness of wood, you're still out of luck, at least on initial pass.
We also can't assume that the physics of our world are the same as the physics of Golarion, so we can only reasonably rely on the information that we have in the rulebooks.
Of course, rule 1 is rule 1, but if you want an answer without table variance, you have to go with what the books say.
Oh huh, I didn't see the falling objects chart before. That chart is so hilariously bad I don't even know how to respond. If that's the basis we are going on for how destructive falling things are, then it's no wonder why we're having this argument in the first place.
Also, the whole "can't assume physics are the same" thing is kind of a weak argument to run with given that there is a lot of precedent for the physics working pretty much exactly the same. Create Water describes the density of water as being basically the same as on Earth. Things fall at basically the same rate. Also, the AP book [REDACTED] takes the players to the very same Earth that we are on right now, and physics and the abilities of players don't magically change while on Earth compared to Golarion. It's all the same material plane as far as Pathfinder is concerned.
Edited to remove the name of the AP for spoiler's sake.
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Now for a new monkey wrench... Look at the Traps section. Both the Crushing Stone Trap (CR 15, 16d6) and the Rolling Bolder Trap (CR 10, 12d6) exceed the 10d6 damage max. So it looks like that 10d6 cap is less a rule, and more a guideline.
People must not be reading the chart section at all if they think it caps at 10d6. After falling 150' the object deals double the listed damage.
It also talks about objects doing less if they are not dense material.
actually, the more I think about it, the more I think that the physics of a typical dnd/pathfinder world would have to be different. After all, in our world, there is no known way to say words, move your hands around and produce explosions, or to fly, or so on, or to change the very nature of your being, or to create something from nothing, and so on. Magic is commonplace in a fantasy world. I have yet to read or see compelling evidence that a person could create such effects without some form of tool to do so. Or spontaneously gain mass, for that matter.
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actually, the more I think about it, the more I think that the physics of a typical dnd/pathfinder world would have to be different. After all, in our world, there is no known way to say words, move your hands around and produce explosions, or to fly, or so on, or to change the very nature of your being, or to create something from nothing, and so on. Magic is commonplace in a fantasy world. I have yet to read or see compelling evidence that a person could create such effects without some form of tool to do so. Or spontaneously gain mass, for that matter.
It's just fantasy. Just like in a movie where magic exists, it's existence doesn't mean that people can't fall off a roof top, get shot, or something similar and die from it, like real life. Just because superhuman PCs can survive anything and defy physics, this doesn't mean that physics some how does not apply to everybody else in the world.
Since you're comparing real life to this game. All that would be is a modern, no magic pathfinder setting. So now nobody can transform or fly.
actually, the more I think about it, the more I think that the physics of a typical dnd/pathfinder world would have to be different. After all, in our world, there is no known way to say words, move your hands around and produce explosions, or to fly, or so on, or to change the very nature of your being, or to create something from nothing, and so on. Magic is commonplace in a fantasy world. I have yet to read or see compelling evidence that a person could create such effects without some form of tool to do so. Or spontaneously gain mass, for that matter.
Imma just restate that you go to Earth in an official Pathfinder adventure and the physics are the same. Laws of thermodynamics and conservation of mass can still exist in the Pathfinder world. Who's to say that when you create mass or energy in the material plane, it doesn't also disappear in like amounts from some unknown plane of existence? That's basically how magic in the Forgotten Realms setting works. There's the Weave that permeates everything that is this raw energy that casters tap into. I don't know of an official published equivalent in Pathfinder (somebody speak up if they know), but it wouldn't surprise me if Pathfinder functioned similarly.