THE LITERAL CROW:
Tengu Warpriest (also works for any race which gives you 3+ natural attacks)
CL1 Weapon Finesse, Weapon Focus (Claws), Improved Unarmed (Sacred)
CL2
CL3 Two-Weapon Fighting, Weapon Focus (Bite)
CL4
CL5 Dual Enhancement
CL6 Improved TWF
CL7 Multiattack
CL8
CL9 Pummeling Style, ???
CL10
CL11 ???
CL12 Greater Two-Weapon Fighting
As-is, with TWF, ITWF, and GTWF it's 8 attacks for average 44 damage and 2 Feats open at lv12 (higher than the Sacred Fist)
With just Two-Weapon Fighting, it's 6 attacks for avg 33 damage and 4 feats open. (2 damage less Sacred Fist, 1 more feat slot open, however)
With TWF and ITWF it's 7 attacks for avg 38.5 damage and 3 feats open (greater damage than Sacred Fist, and equal number of feat slots open)
And technically, Multiattack is just to raise your Natural Attacks from BAB-5 to BAB-2. In PFS, this isn't legal, so it's dropped and is an open Feat Slot (Pummeling Style earlier, perhaps), raising the number of free slots to: TWF/5 slots, ITWF/4 slots, GTWF/3 slots.
So, yeah... GTWF without Multiattack gets you 8 attacks for 44 average damage and the same number of Feat Slots available as the Sacred Fist.
The only major downside to this build is that the Tengu doesn't get the Human Bonus Combat Feats at lv6, 12, and 18.
funny thing: you can use the opportunist advanced talent ability with yourself--you're flanking with yourself with dimensional savant, and you are your own ally (as per bard precedence). tack on TWF and opportunist* and you get 8 attacks per round (18/18/20*/13/13/8/8/3) before haste and whatnot.
off the top of my head (20pb):
human slayer 17 / HW 3
(slayer 6, HW 3, slayer +11)
str 16 (18), dex 14, con 14, int 10, wis 10, cha 10
adjust mentals as you like, get a wis headband.
traits: ??? / ???
talents (with human FCB):
2 - ranger style: TWF
4 - combat trick: double slice
6 - ranger style: ITWF, ???
11 - ???
13* - ranger style: GTWF
15* - opportunist, ???
17* - ???
19* - ???
*-advanced talents available
feats:
1 - EWP (sawtooth), weapon focus (sawtooth)
3 - power attack
5 - endurance
7 - ???
9 - dimensional agility
11 - dimensional assault
13 - dimensional dervish
15 - dimensional savant
17 - ???
19 - ???
.
prereq-less TWF line, opportunist the same level you get savant, PA/double slice for solid damage. maybe take iron will as your 7th level feat (along with the aforementioned wis headband) to shore up your will save? eight sneak attacks (from autoflank) are gonna hurt if they hit.
you could hilariously grab extra talent: terrain mastery with the leftover talents and feats to really jack up the amount (and bonuses) of favored terrains.
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Tengu swordmaster rogue doesn't get full bab but it does get a Pounce like trance ability and can add the bite attack to your full attack.I really like the idea of slayer. Now, how about trying to move in fast and getting full BaB at the same time. What about trying to get the dimensional agility feat tree? Maybe get into Eldritch Knight somehow, to keep the full BaB going?
Alternatives are welcomed.
I really hate the execution of the swordmaster rogue. Trances cost a full round action to set up that provokes. Once you are in the trance to pounce requires you to make a successful combat maneuver check vs the target with your 3/4 BAB Since a maneuver is a standard action, if the maneuver fails no attacks for you.
You are better off spending the round you used activating trance making a normal charge without pounce and then making the full attack the following round when you would have used the tiger trance.
Swordmaster is a trap.
The mutation warrior gives you access to the "Vestigial Arm" discovery.
With that you can grow 2 more arms (if you take it twice) and while sadly you can't wield 4 weapons with them, you could wield two 2-handed weapons or one 2-handed, one 1-handed and a shield).
Combined with Str Mutagen and full BAB this would hurt quite a bit. Takes a long time to get to that though.
Tengu swordmaster rogue doesn't get full bab but it does get a Pounce like trance ability and can add the bite attack to your full attack.I really like the idea of slayer. Now, how about trying to move in fast and getting full BaB at the same time. What about trying to get the dimensional agility feat tree? Maybe get into Eldritch Knight somehow, to keep the full BaB going?
Alternatives are welcomed.
I really hate the execution of the swordmaster rogue. Trances cost a full round action to set up that provokes. Once you are in the trance to pounce requires you to make a successful combat maneuver check vs the target with your 3/4 BAB Since a maneuver is a standard action, if the maneuver fails no attacks for you.
You are better off spending the round you used activating trance making a normal charge without pounce and then making the full attack the following round when you would have used the tiger trance.
Swordmaster is a trap.
It's not a trap. It's one of the earliest ways to get Pounce so it's understandable for it to have some draw backs. However, if you spec for it and plan out your attack, you can benefit from it greatly. It's a lot like save or suck spells. There are hurdles to overcome to pull it off but if you succeed you can achieve great things.
The mutation warrior gives you access to the "Vestigial Arm" discovery.
With that you can grow 2 more arms (if you take it twice) and while sadly you can't wield 4 weapons with them, you could wield two 2-handed weapons or one 2-handed, one 1-handed and a shield).
Combined with Str Mutagen and full BAB this would hurt quite a bit. Takes a long time to get to that though.
Read through this very long thread and you will find that there isn't a very good clear explanation of what can and can't be done. However it is generally agreed after the development teams commentary that you cannot dual attack with two two-handed weapons in the same turn, even if you have 4 physical hands.
At best, what you are suggesting is questionable as to whether it is allowed.
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It's not a trap. It's one of the earliest ways to get Pounce so it's understandable for it to have some draw backs. However, if you spec for it and plan out your attack, you can benefit from it greatly. It's a lot like save or suck spells. There are hurdles to overcome to pull it off but if you succeed you can achieve great things.
The action economy makes the pounce you get from the trance not worth it. Even if you make the combat maneuver check, you would have done more damage to the target by making a normal charge and then full attacking the following round instead of wasting a round to enter trance and then pouncing.
The extremely limited trance rounds per day means you can't even enter trance before combat and then make the pounce maneuver when you have the opportunity because you don't have rounds to waste.
I mean it's better than trap sense, but it's not a real pounce. The benefit of pounce is being able to make a move and full attack on round one. Tiger trance doesn't let you do that.
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Is the exotic weapon proficiency really needed for sawtooth sabre in these builds? Am I wrong in thinking a gladius is practically just as good and then you have a spare feat to use on a save booster or toughness.
Or is there something I'm missing?
EDIT: where folks are trying to work in swashbuckler or slashing grace, I can see the benefit
You cannot use Slashing Grace with a light weapon like the Gladius.
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It's not a trap. It's one of the earliest ways to get Pounce so it's understandable for it to have some draw backs. However, if you spec for it and plan out your attack, you can benefit from it greatly. It's a lot like save or suck spells. There are hurdles to overcome to pull it off but if you succeed you can achieve great things.
Swordmaster is a trap.
I think that it actually works better when combined with a nat weapon tengu than with TWF. (as odd as it sounds for a 'swordmaster' to not use a sword) A nat weapon tengu with both the Scout & Swordmaster archetypes is pretty mean. It isn't very likely to go off against big beefy things - but if you get a charge lane against a squishy caster...
And the trance isn't really designed to be used in combat. (or only situationally) It's more of a pre-combat buff used in combination with proper scouting. (You are a rogue after all.)
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And the trance isn't really designed to be used in combat. (or only situationally) It's more of a pre-combat buff used in combination with proper scouting. (You are a rogue after all.)
That's a fair point. But everyone on the boards like to push it as "early pounce". If you take the archetype to get pounce and don't fully understand it's limitations, you'll be very disappointed in it.
That's a fair point. But everyone on the boards like to push it as "early pounce". If you take the archetype to get pounce and don't fully understand it's limitations, you'll be very disappointed in it.
And the trance isn't really designed to be used in combat. (or only situationally) It's more of a pre-combat buff used in combination with proper scouting. (You are a rogue after all.)
Understanding it's limitations is key and it is far more situational than Pounce for sure. In our RotRL campaign we are setting it up to work like this: the inquisitor starts the 1st round with a dazzling display. The rogue, who also has shatter defenses, can enter the trance on the first round, then proceeds to target and take down about one enemy per turn due to full attacks with sneak damage. You target the weakest enemies first to really get the fullest benefits out of the trance. It won't always work, but against large groups of enemies, which tend to be lower lvl to lower the CR of the encounter, it really has a chance to shine.
Is the exotic weapon proficiency really needed for sawtooth sabre in these builds? Am I wrong in thinking a gladius is practically just as good and then you have a spare feat to use on a save booster or toughness.
Or is there something I'm missing?
EDIT: where folks are trying to work in swashbuckler or slashing grace, I can see the benefit
The main benefit of sawtooth sabre is if you plan to use Lead Blades or enlarge person.
Medium Sawtooth Sabre is 1d8 (average 4.5). Lead Blades or Enlarge person makes it 2d6 (average 7).
Any 1d6 weapon (average 3.5) only goes to 1d8 (average 4.5).
If those are not part of your strategy, don't worry about it.
The benefit of using the same weapon in each hand is that weapon-specific feats like Weapon Focus, Weapon Specialization, Improved Critical, etc., apply to both attacks. If you're not planning to build around those, then use a 1d8 heavy blade in your main hand and a 1d6 light blade in your off hand.
(I like cestus as an off-hand weapon, too: bludgeoning, piercing, and leaves your hand free.)
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oh i just went with sawtooth for the TWF penalty reduction--you can just as easily trade it for another feat and dual-wield kukri's for critfishing or whathaveyou
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Is the exotic weapon proficiency really needed for sawtooth sabre in these builds? Am I wrong in thinking a gladius is practically just as good and then you have a spare feat to use on a save booster or toughness.
Or is there something I'm missing?
EDIT: where folks are trying to work in swashbuckler or slashing grace, I can see the benefit
Other than doing the dex to damage trick - you're really better off with a double-weapon. You get the increased damage die which is the point of the sabres, with the additional advantage of being able to two-hand it for a couple extra points of damage when you can't get off a full attack.
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Other than doing the dex to damage trick - you're really better off with a double-weapon. You get the increased damage die which is the point of the sabres, with the additional advantage of being able to two-hand it for a couple extra points of damage when you can't get off a full attack.Is the exotic weapon proficiency really needed for sawtooth sabre in these builds? Am I wrong in thinking a gladius is practically just as good and then you have a spare feat to use on a save booster or toughness.
Or is there something I'm missing?
EDIT: where folks are trying to work in swashbuckler or slashing grace, I can see the benefit
The sabers are good if you are grappled, but otherwise a double weapon is generally better.
No one suggested the Two-Weapon Warrior archetype for fighters? With what it offers you can use heavier weapons to both hands without much of a hassle.
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No one suggested the Two-Weapon Warrior archetype for fighters? With what it offers you can use heavier weapons to both hands without much of a hassle.
Not really. For one thing - that doesn't come online until level 11. For another, you're still at -1 in comparison to using light weapons. (Eventually at -2 again.)
In addition - it's just not a very good archetype. Unless you dip into swashbuckler, you're MAD, needing both a high strength for damage & a high dex for TWF. In addition, you can't take advantage of that high dex for AC the way a normal fighter can because you give up armor training.
Finally - the 'twin blades' ability which they get instead of weapon training is far more limited, and by RAW it wouldn't work with gloves of dueling.