| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
The GM is the final arbiter, which means is everyone else at the table disagrees with him the GM should change his behavior.The only agreement required is to play at the table. Discussion is good and all, but in the end the GM is the final arbiter of the game rules. There is no democratic requirement--you don't need full agreement or even consensus. The only voting right the players are guaranteed is the right to "vote with their butts".Then you need to re-read the core books again because it states any changes need to be agreed upon by all players. I wouldn't call that a guideline. Yes, there are varied rulesets and variants within pathfinder, but all variants are just optional rules for the players to use which should also be in that discussion. I wouldn't call something everyone needs to discuss as guidelines, but I don't want to argue semantics. GM houserules also requires agreement.Some GMs seem to have this idea that pathfinder is a guideline.It is... there's a very wide variety of the type of adventures you can have within the ruleset.
No, it means that the GM is the final arbiter. What the GM says goes, full stop. This ain't a democracy.
A good part of this is common sense and suppose to build a good playing environment. The key word is Arbiter. If something is arbitrary that means it's not stated clearly somewhere else or it isn't covered in the rules.
The arbiter has the final, uncontested power of deciding the rules. The GM is not just a mediator.
Please read the post above or page 14 of the GameMastery Guide under House Rules. WOW that subject is covered! It's not arbitrary anymore.
Please stop escalating.
The GameMastery guide is a book providing advice to GMs on ways to run their table. It is not a core rule book; in fact, the entirety of the rules in the book are guidelines meant to streamline and improve the game experience. It is certainly not binding in any way whatsoever. A GM should discuss house rules when she is reasonably expected to do so (and would not utterly derail the game in the middle of play), but she does not have to do so, and there are situations in which such discussion is neither reasonable nor conducive to a good play experience.
Do you have to read the book? Do I have to listen to the GM as a player if he says I can't do that? Does the GM have to listen to the player when he wants to do something. Now we are having quite a ridiculous conversation. Can you play without using all the rules? Yes, but pathfinder says this is the way they forsaw gamers having the best experience and this is what they wrote.
Of course you don't have to listen to the GM. You can always leave.
|
@Chess Pwn
Don't panic too fast. After playing several games you will see if things are going in bad direction. I personally joined to a group of players once, but waited patiently several sessions to see if my suspicions are valid. In the end, they were. They played a game which I didn't like and I politely withdrew from those sessions.
Your GM might be wrong, but is nevertheless, human being. Give him a benefit of doubt a bit and check in with other players if their opinions are on the same scale. At worst, they might give you a small back up opinions during gameplay.
Adam
Yes the GM should consider the players when he makes his games, but he does not have too. He is the judge and the jury, and there is no democracy. If the GM says "this is the rule" then that is the rule.
Yes, you can leave, but the point still stands that if the GM says something, then that is how it is. As an example if he said all dragons have SR = to CR+25 then that is what they have. If he says they get double hit points, then they have double hit points. If he says they get a +35 to saves, and never roll a nat one then that is how they work. There is not much you can really do as a player expect find a better GM.
For the record I would think the example GM I just made up would be a crappy GM.<---In before someone misreads my post and thinks that is how things should be done.
For the OP, I would try to talk to him, but if that does not work there are VTT's that allow you to play with groups from around the world.
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
Optimized characters complaining about optimized encounters? Remember the GM is a person playing the game too and might not want to spend time making what he feels is balanced only to watch the group shred it in a matter of rounds. Your ranger with +32 to hit and your +30 spell penetration probably means most encounters are just a slay fest. To then complain when he wants to make the encounters harder seems like you want to walk through as gods. If you don't care for the GM you can always leave the game instead of calling foul.
Also, some folks rightly or wrongly believe that dragons should be nearly unbeatable death machines. Other folks think that honor belongs to PCs. I remember the days when some friends pages through Gods, Demigods & Heros so that they could kill the gods, one by one, on the general principle that if it has stats, then it can be pwned.
Personally, I start losing interest about the time characters get to 12th or 13th level. Y'all started at 12th level. It's a different game, and your GM's efforts to deal with such high-level characters don't seem completely out of line to me.
YMMV.
Optimized characters complaining about optimized encounters? Remember the GM is a person playing the game too and might not want to spend time making what he feels is balanced only to watch the group shred it in a matter of rounds. Your ranger with +32 to hit and your +30 spell penetration probably means most encounters are just a slay fest. To then complain when he wants to make the encounters harder seems like you want to walk through as gods. If you don't care for the GM you can always leave the game instead of calling foul.
True, but it's lazy to "optimize" by adding more numbers. You can add more numbers, but doing it elegantly by clever use of sorcerer spellcasting, adding magic items, (that fullplate he talked about was a good example of this. Dragons have x3 treasure, nothing that says that some of that can't be invested in a full plate or an amulet of natural attacks) or feats, is far more impressive than just going "Have +5SR, seems right."
It's what I do as a gm. It comes across as fair, even when they get thouroughly trounced, because it makes the world look like it's working by the same rules as the players. It also means that you can play with low-op or high-op parties alike, and have level progression look somewhat the same.
Also, 1200hp? I'm aware that you can handily deal the damage, but come on... Use more monsters instead, please. Or add mischance. Or anything but multiplying hp with 4-5 to make a fight last.
Sheesh.
Talk to him about how "artificially increasing SR, HP, and AC to compensate for your party's stats is going to cause a TPK." If you DM continues to create TPK encounters then ask him to step down as a DM and to be a player instead; since, many people aren't meant to DM and many players lack a DM's perspective on roleplaying games.
|
|
| 3 people marked this as a favorite. |
To be frank, I skipped a lot of the posts past the first page. Here's my two coppers and a possible curveball you can throw this GM.
First, he sounds like the kind of GM I would initially politely explain my concerns with, then politely never play with again after having him tell me to "stop being a baby." That's just uncalled for once everyone is over 14 years old.
Second, here's how you completely obliterate the most heinous dragons when you've already invested so heavily into spell penetration;
Although the older a dragon gets, the nastier their SR becomes, nearly everyone forgets that dragon's Dex scores become increasingly crappy. Hell, an Ancient Dragon has a Dex score of 8. Calcific Touch allows SR, but the Dex damage cannot be saved against if the attack hits. Combine this spell with Spectral Hand or Reach Metamagic. Hell, Maximize this spell and watch this GM's heart shatter as his gargantuan sized, Ancient uber-dragon is petrified in two hits.
For added amusement, encourage the melee types to break out the Earthbreakers and really do a number to the thing.
Also, Dweomor's Essence can increase your spell penetration by another +5 when used as a material component.
To be frank, I skipped a lot of the posts past the first page. Here's my two coppers and a possible curveball you can throw this GM.
First, he sounds like the kind of GM I would initially politely explain my concerns with, then politely never play with again after having him tell me to "stop being a baby." That's just uncalled for once everyone is over 14 years old.
Second, here's how you completely obliterate the most heinous dragons when you've already invested so heavily into spell penetration;
Although the older a dragon gets, the nastier their SR becomes, nearly everyone forgets that dragon's Dex scores become increasingly crappy. Hell, an Ancient Dragon has a Dex score of 8. Calcific Touch allows SR, but the Dex damage cannot be saved against if the attack hits. Combine this spell with Spectral Hand or Reach Metamagic. Hell, Maximize this spell and watch this GM's heart shatter as his gargantuan sized, Ancient uber-dragon is petrified in two hits.
For added amusement, encourage the melee types to break out the Earthbreakers and really do a number to the thing.
Also, Dweomor's Essence can increase your spell penetration by another +5 when used as a material component.
Ahh. Shivering Touch, Pathfinder style.
| 9 people marked this as a favorite. |
To people defending the GM:
You realize he is basically saying "I demand that 50% of your turns are wasted, no matter what. If not enough of your turns are being wasted, I will alter the enemy's stats at a whim, without increasing loot or XP, until I am confident 50% of your turns are wasted."
It's like being under a non-removable Bestow Curse, and also only having half the normal number of spells per day.
|
See I understand that, and I do have some stuff. But this is going to be basically every fight for the rest of the campaign. We only started at lv12 and had a few sessions to get used to our character. Then he leveled us and now the dragon invasion begins. So I totally get a few enemies that shut me down, cool I adapt. But if every fight now will stop my "trick". And what battlefield control do you use against a dragon? What SM7 can do anything against a CR20 dragon? And for buffs I'm struggling to see much beyond haste and heroism. If you have more suggestions I'd welcome it. I'm just not seeing much I'll be able to do from now on.Even a self-styled "blaster wizard" should have enough flexibility to do things other than blasting when blasting just isn't going to work. Buffing, battlefield control, monster summoning are all viable options, even if you have focused on blasting.
Don't be a one-trick pony, because sometimes the DM will just block your one trick. Wizards are better than that. Now, if you were a sorcerer, I could commiserate, because you would lack flexibility for clear class-based reasons. But a wizard? Fill out that spellbook, man!
Haste (quickened or not)
Wall of StoneEnlarge Person
Heroism
Fly
Stone Skin
Waves of Fatigue
Cloud Kill
Wall of force
Wall of Iron
Tar Pool
Greater Heroism
Waves of Exhaustion
Spell Turning
Force Cage (for dragons that are < 20x20)
Caustic Eruption
There are some great options for shaping the battle field, buffing your allies, or harming your foe. The waves spells are great because there are no saves but do have SR, so they are worth using your rod of penetration on.
|
|
Op:
1) your gm insulted you and resorted to name-calling
2) he is specifically trying to invalidate your build.For the first item, I would just leave. But then, I'm in my 40's, and I don't hang with brats. For the second item, well, that wouldn't be an issue. I'd be gone already.
I've walked out of more than one game in the past with a gm rage shouting (with spittle) that HE was in charge of the game. Thier games didn't last long afterwards. And yes, I would then sit behind the screen myself. With said former gms as players, sometimes.
So walk, man. The most polite thing I can say is that your playstyles don't match.
Agreed. Any "DM" that tries to invalidate a build, you should just walk away from and find a better one.
There are good spells that are not affected by SR, you are just going to have to also use some conjuration and transmutation tactics too
To people defending the GM:
You realize he is basically saying "I demand that 50% of your turns are wasted, no matter what. If not enough of your turns are being wasted, I will alter the enemy's stats at a whim, without increasing loot or XP, until I am confident 50% of your turns are wasted."
It's like being under a non-removable Bestow Curse, and also only having half the normal number of spells per day.
Did someone actually defend the GM? He sounds like kind of a jerk (admittedly based on one side's post, but still....)
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
If the GM is treating the Wizard like this I can only imagine what he is doing to the Rogue.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
By your own argument that means the player is required to submit to the person running the game. I'm merely stating that should be clearly stated by the GM before the game starts. Talking about expectations of play will make a better gaming table.Some GMs seem to have this idea that pathfinder is a guideline.Some players seem to have this idea that every single decision about how the world works should be made by committee. Even if this wouldn't bog the creative process down in a mire of minutia eventually two people will have divergent opinions and neither will budge. Much simpler from the get go if the person tasked with running and creating the world doesn't have to ask permission.
- Torger
Talking is great, house rules should be laid out as clearly as possible from the get go for sure, but things get adjusted over the course of a game as it evolves and that's fine.
Player input is great and something the GM should certainly consider but what I'm really getting at is that after the talking is done the player has two options, play in the game the GM is running or don't.
- Torger
| 3 people marked this as a favorite. |
Your DM suffer from final fantasy syndrome.
Politely ask him or her to tone down the yu-gi-oh monsters with 5000 HP and 75 AC and DR 50 -/Epic Epic and immunity to magic.
I must be missing something. Were these dazing fireballs or something? The way it's written to me just screams "GM doesn't know how to intelligently play a dragon and is pouting about it."
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
| 5 people marked this as a favorite. |
Yes the GM should consider the players when he makes his games, but he does not have too. He is the judge and the jury, and there is no democracy. If the GM says "this is the rule" then that is the rule.
Yes, you can leave, but the point still stands that if the GM says something, then that is how it is. As an example if he said all dragons have SR = to CR+25 then that is what they have. If he says they get double hit points, then they have double hit points. If he says they get a +35 to saves, and never roll a nat one then that is how they work. There is not much you can really do as a player expect find a better GM.
For the record I would think the example GM I just made up would be a crappy GM.<---In before someone misreads my post and thinks that is how things should be done.
Yeah, at the end of the day the GM has the final say.
However, a good GM knows that it's generally better to work with your players than against them. The game might not be a democracy, but even dictatorships need to worry about public opinion. The GM making sure that his players are on-board with any house-rules or other changes goes a long way towards ensuring they have a fun, harmonious game.
Yes the GM should consider the players when he makes his games, but he does not have too. He is the judge and the jury, and there is no democracy. If the GM says "this is the rule" then that is the rule.
Yes, you can leave, but the point still stands that if the GM says something, then that is how it is. As an example if he said all dragons have SR = to CR+25 then that is what they have. If he says they get double hit points, then they have double hit points. If he says they get a +35 to saves, and never roll a nat one then that is how they work. There is not much you can really do as a player expect find a better GM.
For the record I would think the example GM I just made up would be a crappy GM.<---In before someone misreads my post and thinks that is how things should be done.
Yeah, at the end of the day the GM has the final say.
However, a good GM knows that it's generally better to work with your players than against them. The game might not be a democracy, but even dictatorships need to worry about public opinion. The GM making sure that his players are on-board with any house-rules or other changes goes a long way towards ensuring they have a fun, harmonious game.
This is exactly right.
Critiquing his build doesn't help. For better or worse, he's a Blaster-centric Wizard. For better or worse, that's what he wants to do, and has done. By telling him to ignore his build choices, you're doing the exact same thing the GM is-- invalidating his build.
Kestral, I think we agree and I'm not critiquing his build. He asked what to do and I was trying to provide quick options since he apparently has a Gygaxian DM who intends to wreck his cool build.
There are only so many SR piercing items and he has as many as I know of. If the DM adds +5 to SR, it will be o.k. If the DM adds +10 to the dragon's SR, his normal play style is badly wounded and pretty unfun. Suffer or leave the game seem like crummy choices.
I get playing a blaster and I love playing them. If I knew the DM intended to nerf my blaster, I would want other things to do, so I tried to suggest some of the most blaster-esque non-blaster mage tricks I could quickly think of.
|
Did the GM review characters before the start of the game? He should have and planned good encounters for the PCs. Starting a game at Level 12 just so you can throw dragons around stinks of problematic to me. Especially since the GM let PCs know that this would be a dragon war type game. Did he expect a group of experienced dragon fighting PCs to not be optimized for fighting dragons? Your not 1st level adventurers that came across a wyrmling (which at CR 3 is a hellaciously tough fight for 1st level).
If your GM insists on spiking the SR, conjurations are the way to go. The Acid spells can be pretty easily maximized if you're not fighting a dragon with immunity and several of them have no SR or save rolls by the target. And a rod of Elemental Spell to swap out the energy type will keep him from nerfing you due to immunity. A 2nd level acid arrow is very effective since it requires a ranged touch, has no save, no SR, and lasts up to 6 rounds. Maximize it and it's 8 points per round that he can't avoid. A 6th level acid fog is quite nasty too if your PCs are prepped with acid resistance. Maximized that would be 12 damage a round with no save and no SR as long as the dragon is inside the effect. Great battle field area control too.
I'm going to presume that just walking away from the game isn't a good option; so quietly thank the GM for warning you in advance that he's going to try and nerf your build by using your flexibility to show him wizards are not to be trifled with.
If your GM insists on spiking the SR, conjurations are the way to go. The Acid spells can be pretty easily maximized if you're not fighting a dragon with immunity and several of them have no SR or save rolls by the target. And a rod of Elemental Spell to swap out the energy type will keep him from nerfing you due to immunity. A 2nd level acid arrow is very effective since it requires a ranged touch, has no save, no SR, and lasts up to 6 rounds. Maximize it and it's 8 points per round that he can't avoid. A 6th level acid fog is quite nasty too if your PCs are prepped with acid resistance. Maximized that would be 12 damage a round with no save and no SR as long as the dragon is inside the effect. Great battle field area control too.I'm going to presume that just walking away from the game isn't a good option; so quietly thank the GM for warning you in advance that he's going to try and nerf your build by using your flexibility to show him wizards are not to be trifled with.
haha, I think those spells might be good in a normal setting. But these dragons are going to have over 700HP. So 8 damage a round for 6 rounds, 48 damage in six rounds. If these were your typical ~250hp dragons then maybe worth it. But with these dragons that's not doing much damage.
haha, I think those spells might be good in a normal setting. But these dragons are going to have over 700HP. So 8 damage a round for 6 rounds, 48 damage in six rounds. If these were your typical ~250hp dragons then maybe worth it. But with these dragons that's not doing much damage.
It's 8 damage per round per missile, so do it enough and it adds up. And that's just your 2nd level spells. Find out what he's vulnerable to and use Elemental Spell (metamagic feat), make it a 3rd level spell and maximize that (if you have the rod) and you're doing 12/round for 6 rounds per arrow. That's 216 (over 8 rounds) from just 3 spells (and the rod). But more importantly, after you've sent them, you're free to go back to blasting and he just keeps taking the damage.
| 3 people marked this as a favorite. |
To people defending the GM:
You realize he is basically saying "I demand that 50% of your turns are wasted, no matter what.
<snip>
It's like being under a non-removable Bestow Curse, and also only having half the normal number of spells per day.
You know, this is kind of what high level spellcasting was like back in 1e/2e days. Saves were based on the hit dice/level of the target and couldn't be made more difficult by the PC. LOTS of save or lose type spells failed and left the caster with an unproductive turn. And, frankly, PF could use a bit more of it than it has now.
|
You know, this is kind of what high level spellcasting was like back in 1e/2e days. Saves were based on the hit dice/level of the target and couldn't be made more difficult by the PC. LOTS of save or lose type spells failed and left the caster with an unproductive turn. And, frankly, PF could use a bit more of it than it has now.To people defending the GM:
You realize he is basically saying "I demand that 50% of your turns are wasted, no matter what.
<snip>
It's like being under a non-removable Bestow Curse, and also only having half the normal number of spells per day.
Hear, hear.
What % of failure is acceptable for most of y'all?
You know, this is kind of what high level spellcasting was like back in 1e/2e days. Saves were based on the hit dice/level of the target and couldn't be made more difficult by the PC. LOTS of save or lose type spells failed and left the caster with an unproductive turn.
If you look at some of the opening posters later comments then this may indeed be the crux of the issue. If the GMs experience is from the older versions of D&D, which is alluded to a few posts in, then they probably expect pathfinder to follow a similar pattern with Spell Resistance and high saves heavily reducing the effectiveness of wizards. As Pathfinder tries to balance high level casters in other ways then it may be worth just mentioning to them how the game shifted in its design principles and see if that helps before taking any of the more drastic action proposed.
I agree with the talk to your GM about it. That said, you're a wizard, maybe this one dragon is special because it has higher spell resistance, and the intelligent dragons that are attacking the town saw how easily you took down the last one, so they sent the most spell resistant of their kind to try to take you out. There are plenty of SR: No spells that you can use to good effect. Especially since you have time to buy spells and plan out exactly how things are going to go down. You are in the wizards powerhouse here, spell resistance or not.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Exactly. Fighters and rogues having to roll to hit is okay, because those classes are so overpowered, but wizards need their spells to always work perfectly or it just isn't fair. [/sarcasm]What % of failure is acceptable for most of y'all?What I usually get from threads like these is that 0% is the absolute maximum chance of failure that should be allowed.
Fighters and rogues don't get 4 or 5 power/sneak attacks a day.
|
|
Fighters and rogues don't get 4 or 5 power/sneak attacks a day.Exactly. Fighters and rogues having to roll to hit is okay, because those classes are so overpowered, but wizards need their spells to always work perfectly or it just isn't fair. [/sarcasm]What % of failure is acceptable for most of y'all?What I usually get from threads like these is that 0% is the absolute maximum chance of failure that should be allowed.
You vastly underestimate the power of the Wizard.
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
If he ups the difficulty SPECIFICALLY to overcome all the investment that you've done, that is just shoddy GMing. It's like saying "you could have put those feats into Skill Focus [Profession (gardening)] and Skill Focus [Craft (baskets)] and it would make 0 mechanical difference."
This. This is just exactly what pisses me the hell off from other DMs.
*RANT INCOMING*
There's all kinds of ways to make the scenario interesting. You can have the dragon be in a terrain that favors their abilities, you can have the fight be in a volcano and the burning hot gasses inflict environmental penalties, or a negative penalty to see because of smoke, or the fact that dragons almost always have some kind of magic and are wickedly clever creatures and can be PREPARED for the cheeky bastard humanoids to come try to kill them. I mean seriously, how did they get to colossal size without someone trying that before? Dragons are smart, and like any good wizard, should come prepared. Amping up their stats just to specifically counter your character choices is not just cheese dickery, it is also insulting to the dragon and DMing in general.
*END RANT*
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
You vastly underestimate the power of the Wizard.Fighters and rogues don't get 4 or 5 power/sneak attacks a day.Exactly. Fighters and rogues having to roll to hit is okay, because those classes are so overpowered, but wizards need their spells to always work perfectly or it just isn't fair. [/sarcasm]What % of failure is acceptable for most of y'all?What I usually get from threads like these is that 0% is the absolute maximum chance of failure that should be allowed.
My point is that wizards are limited in power by spells per day, not by "well maybe this one will hit".
Fighters and rogues can swing all day long, provided they still have the HP. So having a miss chance per swing isn't nearly as big of a deal.