I've seriously considered to begin playing a paladin in PFS, partly because of its theme, partly because I want to play as an honest to God ner-do-well for once, not the morally ambiguous or more mercenary-minded characters some of my gaming buddies seem to enjoy (and which I have admittedly done as well).
I've heard that "if you want to play a paladin in PFS, you should probably dump your Wisdom and/or Intelligence scores", which I feel was said only half-jokingly. Since I haven't been playing PFS for a tremendous amount of time I gotta ask: are there really a huge amount of scenarios where playing as a paladin would be difficult, if not impossible...unless they were dumb and lacked wisdom? Is it really that hard to play as Paladins in PFS?
The other thing I worry about is that I'm inevitably going to clash with the GM whereby he considers a certain act non-lawful or non-good, whereas I do, or dealing with fellow players who are so utterly convinced that "playing as a strict LG person is impossible, there is only lawful stupid".
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Level 11 paladin here, nearing retirement.
I've played him through a gambit of scenarios ranging from Season 0 to the latest stuff. There were times I did encounter scenarios where I thought "my paladin would have no business here", but did it anyway because he's a Pathfinder.
Yes, I did dump intelligence and wisdom down to 8s, but that doesn't mean I roleplay him like a stubborn idiot. I prefer the "happy-go-lucky that doesn't always know better" angle. As a paladin of Sarenrae, he'll help others to a fault too, unless it's demons, devils, monsters, and/or undead. He'll smite the everloving good into them or kill them trying. (100% chance it's the killing part that happens.)
I can understand your trepidation for GM table variance, but honestly, I feel you are fretting about it too much. Besides, any GM that is actively trying to control how you RP your character is a GM you should walk away from. Quickly.
Lawful Good has a definition within everyone that entails what that means. Sometimes that won't match up, but that's fine. Experienced players and GMs know about the quirks and oddities of why there are Pathfinder paladins. Sometimes, it won't make sense as to why your paladin was assigned this mission, but that is the balance players must maintain in order to adhere to ethics and code of honor.
Roll up your paladin. Live well and fight well, they are tons of fun in PFS. ^_^
Venture-Lieutenant, Netherlands—Leiden
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I play a paladin of Sarenrae (level 8 now) with Int 12 and Wis 8, because the points had to some from somewhere. I can say that he's working out just fine. I've got quite a bit of skills because I really enjoy playing skilled characters.
I think the main reason to dump Int and Wis is just to free up those points for your other four ability scores, because you need all four of them. I wouldn't want to give up my Int, but I've felt the pains of having only 12 Con quite a few times. And having "only" 14 Charisma means that Divine Grace and Smite Evil aren't as powerful for me as they could've been.
As for the alignment issue: I can only conclude it's a problem with some players that just can't resist poking the paladin. I say this because I pretty much never run into the issue, so it must be something rotten in the gaming culture of people playing elsewhere, not here :)
Sometimes you play with chaotic "neutral" PCs. As long as everyone keeps the Don't Be A Jerk rule in mind, that means that there's a bit more (playful) friction, but other players shouldn't be trying to get you in alignment trouble, just to tease you a bit, friendly like.
As for scenarios: I suppose there are some scenarios that really skirt or step over the line of acceptable behaviour. If you know in advance (due to reviews, or advice from people who've played it), just avoid that scenario with your paladin. I have a host of different characters, I like to pick the one that'll be most fun for the particular scenario of the day.
Most of the time I have no problem with the sometimes greyish morality of scenarios though. Playing a faction like Silver Crusade helps. It also helps when playing discontinued faction missions from earlier seasons, because if you take a moral stand and say "my faction leader wants me to do X, but that's just wrong and I won't do it", you don't actually lose anything.
My paladin is from Taldor and reveres Sarenrae, so he's well aware of political difficulties and the need to sometimes just shut up and let someone else lie. I've also got the Oath of Vengeance that says you shouldn't let lesser evils distract you from the bigger picture. That's surprisingly useful: it means that it's okay to let evildoers get away if necessary for the greater good. (It also has significant mechanical benefits.)
My view on paladins is that they're more military than police; you're not there to catch petty thieves, your job is to stop demons and dragons from rampaging. So you can work with less-sterling fellow PCs and pathfinders because it's not your job to police them, and there's good work to be done.
I think that paladins need to be "clean hands" so that they can be a good vessel for the divine power they need to smite the world into being a better place. So you need to be decent yourself, doesn't mean the rest of the party has to adhere to the same standards. You're strictly LG so that the rest doesn't have to be. (This makes more sense for me because Sarenrae is NG; I'm LG so that other people can safely be NG/CG.)
Season 5 has been a particularly good season to be a paladin; your abilities make you very good at smacking down demons and suchlike. The paladin class is strong in many many scenarios.
One other "power" of paladins worth knowing about: diplomancy. You have good Charisma and Diplomacy is a class skill. It works very well in PFS. And because paladins don't lie, when people know you're a paladin, you have a lot of credibility. NPCs and also other players will also give you more benefit of doubt than they'd give people playing a more CN sort of character. You can trust paladins, that makes it easier to work together with them.
Enjoy :)
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In my experience playing 2 PFS paladins, the main issues have been faction missions, not the overall missions themselves. Admittedly, an Oath of Vengeance lets me focus heavily on the greater evil. Most players are fine with letting us tie up and immobilize mooks and dupes, and the bigbads do, in fact, tend to be evil. So, the roleplaying aspect can be fun and in-character, and not just being a murder hobo.
I did not need to dump Int and Wis on my first paladin, but the second is pretty innocent, and does the right thing because she is following the letter of her training, rather than having a deep and thorough understanding of her philosophies. She was the one insisting on following the graft of the corrupt official -because- he was the local legal representative, much to the pleasant surprise of the some of the shadier members of the party.
So, there are many ways you can play your paladin, and as long as you are not a jerk about it, it can be great fun. But, yes, you may catch grief from those who don't understand. Play well, and hope they appreciate your characterization and the fun you bring to the table.
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The great majority of the time there are no issues playing a paladin, as long as the paladin isn't going overboard in its LG.
However, the player MUST be somewhat flexible. You have to come up with an in character reason you're willing to associate with evil companions (I don't care what it says on the character sheet, there are lots of evil pathfinders out there).
You also have to be aware that people disagree on what constitutes LG behavior and it is possible that you and the GM will disagree. Unfortunately for you, the GMs opinion wins. Fortunately almost all GMs will only impose their opinions in what they consider the most egregious circumstances so it is very rarely an issue. But rarely is NOT never.
You do have one absolute safeguard though. The GM has to inform you that you are doing something naughty BEFORE you act and let you change your mind. No going "well, you did something, you fall".
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I've seriously considered to begin playing a paladin in PFS, partly because of its theme, partly because I want to play as an honest to God ner-do-well for once, not the morally ambiguous or more mercenary-minded characters some of my gaming buddies seem to enjoy (and which I have admittedly done as well).
Question: "ne'er do well" is someone who never does good things, or in more popular connotation, someone who can't do anything right. I'm assuming you mean the opposite of that? (You might be thinking of a "do-gooder" or "Goody Two-shoes" or just generically "good guy".)
I've heard that "if you want to play a paladin in PFS, you should probably dump your Wisdom and/or Intelligence scores", which I feel was said only half-jokingly. Since I haven't been playing PFS for a tremendous amount of time I gotta ask: are there really a huge amount of scenarios where playing as a paladin would be difficult, if not impossible...unless they were dumb and lacked wisdom? Is it really that hard to play as Paladins in PFS?
Paladins don't dump int and wisdom to make them too stupid to notice the other characters doing bad things: they dump int and wisdom because they can.
You need a high charisma for your class features. If you're a frontliner, you'll want a high con. If you're trying to be a melee damage dealer, you need a high strength. You don't want to dump dex because you need your armor class.
That leaves int and wisdom. Int is the go-to dump stat for characters who don't care about skills. And paladins use wisdom less than any other character class. You add your charisma to saves and you have really nice will saves anyway, so you can afford to dump your wisdom.
The other thing I worry about is that I'm inevitably going to clash with the GM whereby he considers a certain act non-lawful or non-good, whereas I do, or dealing with fellow players who are so utterly convinced that "playing as a strict LG person is impossible, there is only lawful stupid".
I haven't seen this problem in our area, so I don't know if the issue is just regional or completely overhyped. I think a lot of the modern paladin-hate comes from the movie Gamers 2: Dorkness Rising, where the stereotypical paladin spends most of his waking hours trying to keep the other party members from having any fun. (In my youth, it was probably Dudley Do-Right's fault--I think he's the source of the lawful stupid stereotype, but I haven't done any specific research on that.)
If you're concerned about the GMs, get a phylactery of faithfulness.
And don't forget that you can always atone.
I've seriously considered to begin playing a paladin in PFS, partly because of its theme, partly because I want to play as an honest to God ner-do-well for once, not the morally ambiguous or more mercenary-minded characters some of my gaming buddies seem to enjoy (and which I have admittedly done as well).Question: "ne'er do well" is someone who never does good things, or in more popular connotation, someone who can't do anything right. I'm assuming you mean the opposite of that? (You might be thinking of a "do-gooder" or "Goody Two-shoes" or just generically "good guy".)
Indeed I was thinking the exact opposite. Bad wording on my part!
I haven't seen this problem in our area, so I don't know if the issue is just regional or completely overhyped. I think a lot of the modern paladin-hate comes from the movie Gamers 2: Dorkness Rising, where the stereotypical paladin spends most of his waking hours trying to keep the other party members from having any fun. (In my youth, it was probably Dudley Do-Right's fault--I think he's the source of the lawful stupid stereotype, but I haven't done any specific research on that.)
If you're concerned about the GMs, get a phylactery of faithfulness.
And don't forget that you can always atone.
Well all of the folks in my gaming area that I've met are awesome people to game with, but some just seem convinced that a paladin must put emphasis on the lawful part of LG rather than the good. So I don't think it's even a regional thing here either.
I will say that this thread and a few other stuff I've read online has definitely given me more confidence to play a well-rounded paladin in the future.
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Well all of the folks in my gaming area that I've met are awesome people to game with, but some just seem convinced that a paladin must put emphasis on the lawful part of LG rather than the good. So I don't think it's even a regional thing here either.
Then those people should read the paladin's class features. They don't detect/smite Chaos. That's Hellknights. :p
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Playing a paladin has its unique challenges, that is for sure. And there are probably as many ways to play one as there are players.
I will say that I've had some "interesting" experiences due to being a paladin. By doing what is Right, I believe I returned a crusader that had lost his way back onto the path of the straight and narrow, though he lost his life, he died a hero in the end.
And the dragon I faced down over Absalom.... I drew deeply on my faith that day. Never was the option of running or hiding in my mind. Once our wizard had cast his enchantments upon me, I was able to fly and avoid many of the beasts terrible attacks. The self-healing granted bey Abadar kept me alive until my Falchion could bite deeply... thrice did I swing in the final exchange, and thrice did my divinely charged blade cut deeply and end the vile thing's life. (Three smiling crits in one round, while at less than ten hp)!!!
But, there have been challenges. However, I have never been forced to turn from my path. It has been tried, but my resolve was strong, though sorely tested by a band of goblins we had to escort from Irrisen.
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Playing a paladin can be challenging in almost any campaign. Because any moral dilemma presented will be two-fold for the Paladin. You have to juggle being Lawful Good, your Paladin's code, and in some cases, your Deity's ethos (should it be a non-lawful good deity.)
In Pathfinder Society, you also have to juggle your oath to the Society itself. You have to juggle the cooperation aspect. To respect the other characters despite their misguided activities.
As a GM I really enjoy watching the player of a Paladin squirm sometimes. I think they enjoy doing the squirming. But ultimately, I don't judge them harshly (judging that they've fallen) unless their action is particularly egregious or they are wantonly disregarding their Oath, being Lawful good, and less so cooperation and following their deity's ethos. If you are making the honest attempt to make the good decision, then in my mind you are fine.
As a GM, I do my best to not put you into a trap situation.
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I argue about this a lot (I have a 12th level PFS Paladin of Irori). What it comes down to, a lot of the times, is that Pathfinder players in general, don't want GM intervention/table variation. They want a set of ironclad rules that says if a Paladin does X, Y, or Z the paladin falls. The trouble with this, is that the game isn't set up for that. Paladins worship different gods and different gods have different rules.
For example there was one scenario where the authorities were trying to smash their way into the home. Inside the home were persecuted followers of Sarenrae. Now a paladin of Iomade, would be perfectly justified in helping the refugees. They're wrongfully persecuted and the laws against them are unjust. A Paladin of Abadar, god of laws, would have a MUCH harder time justifying helping the refugees. Sure the law is unjust, but Abadar believes in going about changing the laws in the proper way, not just breaking them because they're inconvenient.
There will absolutely be some scenarios that you'll have to justify to yourself being a part of. In my experience all the justification was to myself, I never had a GM really question me.
A bunch of great information
I completely agree with Zach Klopfleisch. As I said my paladin was Irori who really venerated the Knowledge aspect of that god, that was my reasoning for being in the PFS, and made my life a lot easier.
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Alignment is basically a mechanic for spells and abilities.
Someone who is 100% Lawful Good is probably worse than someone who is Chaotic Evil.
They really are exactly the same, except that the Lawful Good, claims divine right, while the Chaotic Evil claims well nothing not even that they did it.
I'm thinking maybe I need to do some research on the most vile code of conduct in history and base a paladin on that, and then totally justify why I am slaughtering everything. All I need is to start with a convert to my religion or die, now I can kill everyone with impunity and be just as bad as any chaotic evil, maybe even worse.
in other words : do not fret about alignment it is just a mechanic for spells, everything else is justifiable.
Uh, no. Alignment, for all of its ills, is not so flexible that you can use it to justify any evil. In a world where the existence of multiple gods is so proven that all religions accept it "convert or die" can NOT be judged to be anything except an evil act.
Or so I'd rule anyway (and I'd strongly claim that the RAW support ONLY my interpretation in this case). I'd give you fair warning and, if you persisted you'd very quickly not be a paladin and be out of PFS as you'd also be evil.
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I have my paladin at lvl 10 now and I have had a few problems with old faction missions (FOR TALDOOR!) and thus missed some prestige. Otherwise it's been fun to see other PC's trying to persuade him from not just walking to a known BBEG or alike and asking them nicely to surrender in the name of Iomedae or something equally stupid.
He's really handy at keeping fellow adventurers from dying and a potent diplomat. That's always welcome. There are paladin haters somewhere but luckily I have not come across them yet.
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Alignment is basically a mechanic for spells and abilities.
Someone who is 100% Lawful Good is probably worse than someone who is Chaotic Evil.
They really are exactly the same, except that the Lawful Good, claims divine right, while the Chaotic Evil claims well nothing not even that they did it.
I'm thinking maybe I need to do some research on the most vile code of conduct in history and base a paladin on that, and then totally justify why I am slaughtering everything. All I need is to start with a convert to my religion or die, now I can kill everyone with impunity and be just as bad as any chaotic evil, maybe even worse.
in other words : do not fret about alignment it is just a mechanic for spells, everything else is justifiable.
That's exactly what an evil person would say. :p
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Alignment is basically a mechanic for spells and abilities.
Someone who is 100% Lawful Good is probably worse than someone who is Chaotic Evil.
They really are exactly the same, except that the Lawful Good, claims divine right, while the Chaotic Evil claims well nothing not even that they did it.
I'm thinking maybe I need to do some research on the most vile code of conduct in history and base a paladin on that, and then totally justify why I am slaughtering everything. All I need is to start with a convert to my religion or die, now I can kill everyone with impunity and be just as bad as any chaotic evil, maybe even worse.
in other words : do not fret about alignment it is just a mechanic for spells, everything else is justifiable.
Why does everything have to be absolute? You must be the MOST LAWFUL and the MOST GOOD. What is wrong with using laws to ensure the most good is done for the most people?
Throwing my 2 coppers into the fray:
Before we tackle a difficult alignment like Lawful Good, lets start with a simple alignment True Neutral.
A True Neutral character can be obsessed with "balance" and take active means to ensure this "balance". It can also be a Laissez faire person who prefers to let nature maintain that balance knowing that despite local variance, things always return to balance. End result, even with the simplest alignment, there are multiple ways to role play it. In this instance they are polar opposites.
Simply put, there are multiple paths that lead to any alignment to include LG. Which does the character emphasize more? The Lawful or the Good? Which is the goal, and which are the means to achieve it?
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I agree with Grey_Mage that there are multiple paths to any alignment a paladin, for example, may be more on the good side, they prefer to not break laws but they will if they have to, and there's the ones that are more on the lawful side, they prefer to do good but in the end they care more about following the rules set by the "local government" or the NPC's.
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Venture-Lieutenant, Netherlands—Leiden
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@Grey_Mage: it gets a bit weirder when you play a paladin of a LN or NG deity, such as Abadar or Sarenrae.
I play my Sarenrae paladin based on the idea "I'm lawful and kill demons so that other people can be NG in peace"; if he had no obligations he might like being NG more. But to function as a paladin you have to adhere to a code that you don't really expect or even necessarily want everyone else to follow. It's kind of like military discipline; it's needed in the army but you wouldn't want it spread throughout the entirety of your society.
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@Grey_Mage: it gets a bit weirder when you play a paladin of a LN or NG deity, such as Abadar or Sarenrae.
I play my Sarenrae paladin based on the idea "I'm lawful and kill demons so that other people can be NG in peace"; if he had no obligations he might like being NG more. But to function as a paladin you have to adhere to a code that you don't really expect or even necessarily want everyone else to follow. It's kind of like military discipline; it's needed in the army but you wouldn't want it spread throughout the entirety of your society.
I agree with you, but I was trying to keep it simplistic.
In your Abadar example, a Paladin witnesses a beggar accosted/beaten by deputies for being inside the local lords court.
My interpretation:
1) He should intervene, and assist the beggar follow the law by escorting him out, maybe giving him a jolt of the ole LoH if needed while stressing the importance of respecting local ordnance. (This is consistent with being both Lawful and Good as well as his deity's code.)
2) He does nothing because laws are being enforced by lawful officials. This is Lawful and consistent with his deity's code, but not good (not evil either). He failed himself and will need to seek atonement (not the spell version), just admission and recompense for his failing.
3) He joins in on the action. If he is deputized and can take legal action, beating the beggar could be considered evil. This is consistent with Lawful, his deity's code, but evil. He will fall until Atonement, as the spell.
Really, its not hard, I just hate how some people think that Paladins are supposed to be robots and any action causes them to fall, and being LG means they are the extreme version of conformity at all costs.
Just because they walk the LG line, doesn't mean they are intolerant of NG of LN characters. They set the example to lead, not intimidate.
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Venture-Lieutenant, Netherlands—Leiden
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In the Abadar case I think you could intervene to stop the beating but escort the beggar from the premises, then see if you can find him a job. Abadar does do some charity, particularly the Good branch, but with the ultimate aim that everyone becomes a productive member of society.
They don't tolerate people who could but won't work. However, they don't just abandon people who are temporarily down on their luck, or even permanently unable to work; that wouldn't be civilized.
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My paladin joined the Pathfinder Society as the most likely organization to let him seek out Red Mantis Assassins. He payed the prestige to join the assassin's guild so he can better deal with assassins when he meets them.
He spends the time between missions teaching people dances similar to the Red Mantis's prayer attack. This education is to de-mystify the famed killers and hopefully weaken their hold on the common folk.
He is very careful not to physically kill anyone but assassins. Mercy is one of his divine bond abilities. Sadly he does not have the stabilize orison, but can usually administer enough first aid or in a pinch, lay on hands. He recently stabilized a cleric of Norgorber, a god of murder. Murder is not the same as assassination, though he would not have worked as hard to keep her alive as some of the other folks we fought.
He did advocate not-killing people who attacked us earlier that night. They were not the "assassin" we were sent to find.
Intelligence stayed at 10. I dumped Wisdom, but not as an RP aid, I built a TWF from an already MAD class and just needed the points.
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Well all of the folks in my gaming area that I've met are awesome people to game with, but some just seem convinced that a paladin must put emphasis on the lawful part of LG rather than the good. So I don't think it's even a regional thing here either.Then those people should read the paladin's class features. They don't detect/smite Chaos. That's Hellknights. :p
And don't you forget it. Ever.