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Hello all,
I'm hoping to run a playtest soon using pregens, and I was hoping to collect the various concerns for the various classes. As I have only been following the Kineticist discussion & occultist discussion vith great attention, I am interested in knowing what concerns there are for the Mesmerist, Psychic, Spiritualist & Medium. So let's start with what I know:
1) Kineticist concerns:
-AC Too low
-"Burn" being too destructive to allow useful melee combat
-Too low to-hit for non-touch blasts
-Lack of out of combat utility
2) Occultist concerns:
-Class too unfocused to fill any single role decently
-Lack of combat utility
-Effects of "resonance" bonus loss when using focus powers (IE, using points to activate a focus power reduces the resonance bonus of an implement)
I would love to hear what folks have to say about the other classes, as I have not had much of a chance to look at them.
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Downloading now, to read later.
What I'll be looking out for, is any sign of 'the new trumping the old'.
Psionics has always been an extra subsystem, layered over the core, and that creates problems when the new material is created with explicit tools to deal with existing problems, but earlier, core classes and abilities don't get revisited to take new material into account (no apparent methods of resisting the new, or breaching resistances, few immunities or counters).
A fuller discussion of this issue was laid out in the 3.5 Psionics rules, which heavily advised using the 'Psionics Are The Same' option over the 'Psionics Are Different'.
I don't know how they'll address the question of abilities being arcane or divine; I'd be willing to accept a new Knowledge (Psionic) skill, to complement (arcana) and (religion), and bin Spellcraft as the redundancy it is.
1) Kineticist concerns:
-AC Too low
Why?
Shroud of water gives decent shield bonus all day and kineticist can wear light armor. Thats not great AC but not low either.
While that may be good for a hydrokineticist, we dont all use water. In any case, I'm checking worries that were frequently indicated by others.
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I think the 3 main issues for the Medium are:
1) The proficiencies, spirit bonus, and spirit abilities are not enough to make him a competent martial class on par with any full-BAB class. And with 4 skill points and 4-level spellcasting, he's even worse at other roles.
2) The selection of spirits, especially when their abilities interact with each other, is too complicated.
3) A class feature that gives the GM control of your character for the rest of the day will only end in tears.
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Medium Concerns:
- BAB and HD too low (should be d10 and full BAB)
- Spirits require too much bookkeeping (18 so far, 34 more to come...)
- Dual, Triune, and Fourfold Vessel create some really wonky interactions when 3 or more Spirits are used in conjunction.
3) A class feature that gives the GM control of your character for the rest of the day will only end in tears.
Most likely the GM's... and it's completely counter-intuitive to what Pathfinder and PFS have tried to do (make the GM's job easier and allow for more creativity and ease of play).
Thanks folks for the medium notes! Only psychic, spiritualist & mesmerist to go!
Great stuff Caedwyr! I've been working on a general questionnaire for my players to fill out and I thnik I will mark some of your stuff. My current plan is to run 3 oneshots at carrying levels.
Master of the fallen fortress (level 1)
Dawn of the scarlet sun (level 5)
The harrowing (level 9)
I'll post up my questionnaire when I finish it.
Still looking for more on the spiritualist, psychich & mesmerist
I've only had a look at kineticist so far, and havn't considered the weaknesses of the class yet (OP's points seem to have hit the nail on the head there, though I'm going to reserve judgement about AC and burn penalty until I get a chance to play it), but it looks like an awesome blaster so far (aside from the drawbacks the OP mentioned).
My only concern so far is the "Wings of Air" Wild Talent. Fly at will? Putting aside the fact that casting a 3rd level spell at will at level 6 is pretty strong, all of the other flight abilities at that level I can think of (Witch flight hex, the fly spell itself) have durations limited to 1min/level.
Granted, advanced races like Strix and Syrinx have brought in constant flight from the get-go, but there's always the option to disallow those races (and we do, in our group). This feels a bit like power creep, but it's possible it was intentional.
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I'm very surprised that there are this few concerns.
From what I've seen;
Keneticist I've seen complaints about how devastating burn can be. As a blaster class this isn't that valid of a concern but it has a few abilities that scream 'melee frontliner' so it raises the issue of whether or not it should have full BAB and a d10 hit die.
The medium has similar concerns as far as being too fragile to use the melee abilities it has. I don't personally have this concern but I haven't played it yet so there's that.
I've seen complaints that the mesmerist lacks some mind control spells that it probably should have. Also concern that what it does is relatively narrow in what it can affect. Despite these concerns I've seen a few posts that fear that it may be overpowered against humanoid NPCs.
Occultist, once again, has the complaint of combat ability. (Seriously, its the third class that I've seen calls for full BAB over, like every class needs to compete with Fighters in combat ability.) Which is probably valid since I have a hard time figuring out a real role for it. Some of these classes are outside the mold so I'm a little bit at a loss as well, which I think is a good thing, I feel like most of us are stuck in the same paradigm of how adventuring is supposed to work and what all classes should be able to do.
Psychic has complaints but its the class with the smallest thread, probably because it's the least weird class so quickly falls into the caster category and does that job well enough.
The Spiritualist has less buzz as well. I've seen people complain that it is redundant with a summoner around but it doesn't seem to be rubbing too many people the wrong way.
Personally;
I think Medium and Occultist do need some combat options. Its hypocritical but both have some abilities that make me want to make a melee character. I don't think they need something as drastic as full BAB but it hurts my brain that Medium has 4/9 spell progression and not full BAB. Getting 6/9 spell progression would probably keep it as a utility caster and drive away thoughts of making it a melee warrior. This is a little harder to escape with the Occultist because thematically the first thing people will want to do is to 'occult' a sword. I know I will.
Kineticist is probably the most loved class and while there were some calls for full BAB I think the real obstacle is Burn and probably it's skills per level.
Thank you Malwing for your notes. For the notes about the Kineticist, they were discretely inside there, but it might be worth keeping.
I do seem to be hearing a lot of bad about the medium as well. I've tried to build one but it does look needlessly elaborate.
My only concern so far is the "Wings of Air" Wild Talent. Fly at will? Putting aside the fact that casting a 3rd level spell at will at level 6 is pretty strong, all of the other flight abilities at that level I can think of (Witch flight hex, the fly spell itself) have durations limited to 1min/level.
Small-sized 1st level Druids have been riding their flying animal companions since the core rulebook came out. Wings of Air is definitely stronger than most other flight abilities available at level 6, but it's held in check by just how few class features the kineticist gets and the fact that it's self-only. I'm really not worried about this.
Air School Wizards likewise get infinite Flight at lvl10, and get infinite Levitate earlier (which can be used to balloon around if you tie yourself to another party member or party pet).
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Another thing about the Medium:
People who have playtested it (as extensively as possible) have noted that the class is VERY back-heavy. Once you hit lv8, you're a valuable member of the party matched only by everything that's not the Fighter.
From lv1-7, you're lacking in bulk, power, spellcasting, skills... basically, for a class supposedly designed to be a Swiss Army Knife, you instead get only a dull, rubber blade and half a spork until you're high enough level to be where you should have been 6 levels ago (and at which point the Bard, Wizard, and Barbarian are running circles around you - partially because you're going to be busy looking through the wikipedia page that is all your Spirits and Spirit Powers).
I think the main concern is that you're letting messageboard pundits prejudice what should be a straight up playtest.
Just PLAY the classes and find out how they work for you.
Analysis and number crunching are just as important for balance and fine tuning in games.
You can't just rely on personal experience. Both are important tools.
Aside, it'd be a good idea to gather some builds of each class and run a Same Game Test with them.
Another thing about the Medium:
People who have playtested it (as extensively as possible) have noted that the class is VERY back-heavy. Once you hit lv8, you're a valuable member of the party matched only by everything that's not the Fighter.
From lv1-7, you're lacking in bulk, power, spellcasting, skills... basically, for a class supposedly designed to be a Swiss Army Knife, you instead get only a dull, rubber blade and half a spork until you're high enough level to be where you should have been 6 levels ago (and at which point the Bard, Wizard, and Barbarian are running circles around you - partially because you're going to be busy looking through the wikipedia page that is all your Spirits and Spirit Powers).
Interesting to know. I dont know If I will actually end up having the time to test that high, but at least I know.
I will admit the whole 3/4 bab + 4/9 spellcasting weirded me out. Anyway, I'll try to make a build first and I'll see what happens.
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Analysis and number crunching are just as important for balance and fine tuning in games.
You can't just rely on personal experience. Both are important tools.
Analysis, number crunching, and comparing class potential at various levels are very important, as it serves to focus attention on which classes/levels/abilities need playtesting.
In the other thread, it hasn't been much play tested yet, but there are several complaints about the mesmerist tricks being unreasonably short, to the point where it's unreasonable to prepare for fights with them. Also that the hypnotic and bold stares seem a bit weak and their crowd control is nonexistent until 'mass' spells are available.
In the other thread, it hasn't been much play tested yet, but there are several complaints about the mesmerist tricks being unreasonably short, to the point where it's unreasonable to prepare for fights with them. Also that the hypnotic and bold stares seem a bit weak and their crowd control is nonexistent until 'mass' spells are available.
I had noticed that as well when I was making a level one build to playtest. He had no way to boost his attacks, his stare was not terribly useful with one 2 spell per day to cast, and his tricks where only 5/day for 1-round effects. I guess he's supposed to be OOC support? I dunno. I hope to do some actual playtesting this weekend, so we'll see.
I have a new concern. Last night I played a kineticist and we suddenly got back to the trial in book 2. I was less than useless. As soon as the social situation started I was a background character. At 2+Int skills per level and what looks like the smallest class skill list ever there's not much to do outside of blasting.
And the class skills from your element don't help at all. The fighter seems to have it bad but no the only bone is perception and for some reason stealth so if you want to make a scout-bender that's all cool but seriously the elements are nowhere near as useful enough to warrant the terrible skill set.
I will say that Burn, at least at level 5 is nowhere near being a concern as far as I can tell. most of the situations where I wanted the effect I just used my move action to reduce it. I do really hope that there are WAY more low level talent options because there seriously isn't enough diversity and no way to make my electric theme consistent.
I otherwise love the class. Just need more skills and options. maybe even talents that can grant or replicate skill would be enough.
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Good notes malwing, I'll have to try to run some less blasty encounter. Thanks.