| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
Actually wonder whether Occult Adventures would be better for a d20 (Semi) Modern successor, set on Earth with a shadow world (think of a crossover with White Wolf's Mage/Old World of Darkness) in a time range anywhere from the late Nineteenth Century up to the present. If you set it shortly after World War I, it is even contemporaneous with Golarion "present time", thus more easily enabling Earth-Golarion crossovers.
Yes, well, when you go onto a public forum and post your opinion, you should expect to have it analyzed and questioned by people trying to make sense of it. And pointing out when it doesn't and requesting an explanation that at least follows some sense of logic.
That's how forums work.
Seriously, what reaction did you expect?
Well, think it might be summed up as:
If Paizo released Occult Adventures in 2010, before Psionics Unleashed, rather than 2014 after Psionics Unleashed, he'd like the book a lot more than he does now.
I think it's fair to say your/his expectations are unrealistic.
| 4 people marked this as a favorite. |
Hey everyone. This forum is not to discuss your thoughts on the wonderful work of other publishers. Please keep the conversation on target about Occult Adventures and move discussions about other products to the appropriate forum.
Thank you.
Right on, my apologies.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
When I was thinking about getting Dreamscarred Psionic material I took a look at a few 'is psionics overpowered' threads. After a while I took a look myself on the d20pfsrd site. When crunching it myself I felt like the classes could easily overpower Cavalier, Monk, Rogue, and Fighters. The list grows when it comes to classes dependant on short adventuring days or a lot of system mastery. As usual casters in general win out but PP makes conserving resources very intuitive so psionic powers win out with endurance which is catastrophic for casters considering how I run games. But the classes were really cool so I picked up Ultimate Psionics after picking up things that buff Monk/Rogue/Cavaliers/Fighters and introducing Apieron Staves so that casters have a resourceless weapon to stay in the game.
Since I got Ultimate Psionics I've played a Soulknife, playtested a Psychic Warrior and saw a Marksman in my games. So far nothing bad has happend and other classes have stayed relevant so I'm not inclined to dismiss psionics.
The psychic classes are so different in tone, flavor and mechanics that I don't see them comparable but they make me more inclined to dismiss magic transparency for homebrew settings to make sure to distance the two further because from this thread too many people discuss psychics and psionics as if they can actually replace or replicate one another. In my mind psionics is the last bowl of cheerios being peed on:
Keneticist falls into the Warlock/Bender concept that a few 3pp tried to replicate. I have two products (not including one that hasn't come out yet) that cover those grounds and will probably dismiss them because Keneticist will probably fill the gap better.
The Medium kind of feels closely related to Radiance House's Occultist. Radiance House did the job WAY better but the mechanics are different enough where I don't feel like dismissing one or the other so I'll have two different 'getting possessed' classes in my games. I do have less incentive to get more Pact Magic stuff so in a way the medium is moving in on Occultist's turf.
The Psychic is the only class that I feel is close in concept with psionics as it is basically a psychic magic wizard.
I have a few third party things that cover the same concepts as the Spiritualist. Most are just archetypes of Summoner but cheerios peed on none the less.
I almost wish there was another class. A 2/3 warrior 1/3 psychic class based after the old Hexblade from 3.5 D&D (a hexblade's curse like ability would have been cool too). Too many 6 level spell casters for my taste, but all of the classes have some neat mechanical ideas, so it's not an issue for me at least. the kineticist, medium and occultist do stand out. I just like these classes better then the hybrid classes.
Actually wonder whether Occult Adventures would be better for a d20 (Semi) Modern successor, set on Earth with a shadow world (think of a crossover with White Wolf's Mage/Old World of Darkness) in a time range anywhere from the late Nineteenth Century up to the present. If you set it shortly after World War I, it is even contemporaneous with Golarion "present time", thus more easily enabling Earth-Golarion crossovers.
Better yet! I can run a campaign based off the Shadow using Occult Adventures! ("What evil lurks in the hearts of men? Only the Shadow knows!"
If I want Professor Xavier types in my campaign, I go Dreamscarred! If I want the Shadow, I go Occult Adventures! :)
Actually wonder whether Occult Adventures would be better for a d20 (Semi) Modern successor, set on Earth with a shadow world (think of a crossover with White Wolf's Mage/Old World of Darkness) in a time range anywhere from the late Nineteenth Century up to the present. If you set it shortly after World War I, it is even contemporaneous with Golarion "present time", thus more easily enabling Earth-Golarion crossovers.
I'll hopefully be running a playtest for two players and a DMPC this weekend. I figured I'd set it in a supernaturally flavored Victorian London, a la Penny Dreadful, Victorian Age: Vampire, et al. I expect to see sword canes and pepperboxes, to be sure.
I'll post the playtest results once finished and make sure to same something about if the classes played were on point with the flavor.
The Psychic feels kinda generic and ultimately unneeded with Dreamscarred out there (not to mention the Wizard and Sorcerer).
The Medium encroaches too heavily on the wonderful work of Pact Magic done by Radiance House, definitely some toe stepping there.
The Occultist seems pretty neat and flavorful, but I would prefer it had a different name so as to not clash with the product mentioned above.
I agree that the Spiritualist could easily be a Summoner alternate class, but it works fine as is.
I really like both the Mesmerist and the Kineticist, the Burn feature definitely needs some tweaking though.
|
*** Too many 6 level spell casters for my taste, but all of the classes have some neat mechanical ideas, so it's not an issue for me at least. ***
I was actually really happy to see them put out a book that seemed to have the bulk of its material largely resting in pretty solid Tier 3 territory, of which 6 level casting is usually a strong indicator. I honestly would have been perfectly content if the playtest hadn't featured a single 9 level caster. I certainly would have preferred that there was less usage of traditionally psionic terminology in the book that "isn't psionics" since there's now a lot of terminology overlap between the new classes and the DSP materials, but I get that they basically design as though 3pp material doesn't exist.
I also kind of wish that they'd avoided yet more terminology clutter. Infusions, for example, are already an alchemist thing, so making them a completely different Kineticist thing as well is not something I'm a fan of.
Most of the new materials are very cool and flavorful though, and I'm sure several of them will end up finding seats at one of my gaming tables.
It's one of the situations where the GM has to make the call; Paizo, or Dreamscarred, both, or neither. Sometimes it might just boil down to the individual campaign setting.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
I've never been able to understand why Paizo designs as though 3pp does not exist, and will frequently create something that has already been done by a high-profile 3pp and still manage to create something inferior to the already available 3pp offering. I mean, I can understand wanting to create your own interpretation on something rather than just using the OGL to reprint the content, but you'd think Paizo would at least take a look at what has already been done well and take lessons from that.
There are people who will not buy from 3rd Party Publishers, they will strictly buy from Paizo. For some of these people, 3pp does not exist. Thus, it is through the ignorant influence of these people that Paizo generally ignores the best of the 3 Party Publishers' work and produce something that is inferior to the already available 3rd Party offering.
And there is nothing you can do to say to these people:
"Hey, some 3rd party publishers have created great work!"
Because their response will always be, "Paizo's material will always superior to third party."
I've never been able to understand why Paizo designs as though 3pp does not exist, and will frequently create something that has already been done by a high-profile 3pp and still manage to create something inferior to the already available 3pp offering. I mean, I can understand wanting to create your own interpretation on something rather than just using the OGL to reprint the content, but you'd think Paizo would at least take a look at what has already been done well and take lessons from that.
Except, ya know, it's not the same thing as psionics. Have you read the playtest document?
| 3 people marked this as a favorite. |
...it is through the ignorant influence of these people that Paizo generally ignores the best of the 3 Party Publishers' work and produce something that is inferior to the already available 3rd Party offering.
None of this is true.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
In theme, tone, or mechanics psychics do not resemble psionics at all. Why are we still discussing this as if they are that related. I'm more concerned about Medium/Pact Magic Occultist, and Kineticist/every warlock and elementalist for pathfinder class out there.
None of this is true.
...it is through the ignorant influence of these people that Paizo generally ignores the best of the 3 Party Publishers' work and produce something that is inferior to the already available 3rd Party offering.
I know how you feel, I was there once. Everything's an accident, that kind of thing. Sorry, but nothing's an accident. I know people who will only purchase 3 pp, and for them, most 3 pps don't exist. My cousin isn't one of these, but he prefers "1st party" materials over the 3rd party.
All of my gaming group in my Virtual Table Phaeselis the city of psionics game on Fridays have this sort of attitude. None of them have taken a Dreamscarred psionics class when I specifically designed the city for these classes. So, they expect something like this from Paizo, and they get it. A Paizo publication like this is their safety net.
It's up to us, however, to suggest how to make it better. So, lets just playtest the book and suggest how to make it better.
| 3 people marked this as a favorite. |
Also this is a playtest. Of course the classes won't be the right power level compared to established classes. Expecting perfect classes in a playtest would defeat the whole purpose of the playtest.
I like 3PPs as much as the next guy, but this just sounds like petty complaining that does little to help with the playtest and rather seems more like ranting from someone with an axe to grind.
Also this is a playtest. Of course the classes won't be the right power level compared to established classes. Expecting perfect classes in a playtest would defeat the whole purpose of the playtest.
I like 3PPs as much as the next guy, but this just sounds like petty complaining that does little to help with the playtest and rather seems more like ranting from someone with an axe to grind.
Yep. Thanks for echoing me, Odraude.
I'm like an echo, but an a##%+$& about it :D
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
I've never been able to understand why Paizo designs as though 3pp does not exist, and will frequently create something that has already been done by a high-profile 3pp and still manage to create something inferior to the already available 3pp offering. I mean, I can understand wanting to create your own interpretation on something rather than just using the OGL to reprint the content, but you'd think Paizo would at least take a look at what has already been done well and take lessons from that.
PFS.
None of this is true.
...it is through the ignorant influence of these people that Paizo generally ignores the best of the 3 Party Publishers' work and produce something that is inferior to the already available 3rd Party offering.
I know how you feel, I was there once. Everything's an accident, that kind of thing. Sorry, but nothing's an accident. I know people who will only purchase 3 pp, and for them, most 3 pps don't exist. My cousin isn't one of these, but he prefers "1st party" materials over the 3rd party.
All of my gaming group in my Virtual Table Phaeselis the city of psionics game on Fridays have this sort of attitude. None of them have taken a Dreamscarred psionics class when I specifically designed the city for these classes. So, they expect something like this from Paizo, and they get it. A Paizo publication like this is their safety net.
It's up to us, however, to suggest how to make it better. So, lets just playtest the book and suggest how to make it better.
Most of that post was in tin-foil hat territory, but you are correct about the playtest.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Well seeing as none of that conversation on 3rd party quality is in any way related to the playtest, I fail to see why you're wasting everybody's time with it. While I absolutely disagree with you on every single thing you said, i think you should make a separate post if it's something you really want to discuss. And limit this board for actual constructive playtest feedback.
|
|
I've never been able to understand why Paizo designs as though 3pp does not exist, and will frequently create something that has already been done by a high-profile 3pp and still manage to create something inferior to the already available 3pp offering. I mean, I can understand wanting to create your own interpretation on something rather than just using the OGL to reprint the content, but you'd think Paizo would at least take a look at what has already been done well and take lessons from that.PFS.
This. I'm actually pretty interested in Dreamscarred stuff, but only play PFS currently.
That will apparently be handy. ;)
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
To be fair, a lot of Pathfinder players and GMs are highly xenophobic for third party material. Someday I'll get to play a game with a DM who will let me play with Ultimate Psionics... someday...
I'm really really digging how many people are saying they've been able to finally realize or gel their concepts with the new classes. It makes me feel like we've really got something right!
I was iffy at first, then after looking at the new classes I'm glad you guys went this route instead of rehashing 3.5 material. I like the flavour and it allows for a different style of play. It does beg to have a supplement for a victorian era to 1920-30's era setting on a planet kinda like Earth but with horrible things from the darkness.
Come on James you know you want to!
Or maybe not? ;(
Anyways, I'm optimistic at this point that this will be something special. Also looking forward to the other materials in the book like how to run an occult campaign and monsters.
Concerns at this so far...not sure how I feel about the burn mechanic and a few of the other classes "power resources". Granted I need to have a more indepth reading of the rules first!
So...cool stuff. :)
Most of that post was in tin-foil hat territory, but you are correct about the playtest.None of this is true.
...it is through the ignorant influence of these people that Paizo generally ignores the best of the 3 Party Publishers' work and produce something that is inferior to the already available 3rd Party offering.
I know how you feel, I was there once. Everything's an accident, that kind of thing. Sorry, but nothing's an accident. I know people who will only purchase 3 pp, and for them, most 3 pps don't exist. My cousin isn't one of these, but he prefers "1st party" materials over the 3rd party.
All of my gaming group in my Virtual Table Phaeselis the city of psionics game on Fridays have this sort of attitude. None of them have taken a Dreamscarred psionics class when I specifically designed the city for these classes. So, they expect something like this from Paizo, and they get it. A Paizo publication like this is their safety net.
It's up to us, however, to suggest how to make it better. So, lets just playtest the book and suggest how to make it better.
Welcome to Quantum Mechanics. Where how you think could flip an atom galaxies away. ;)
| 3 people marked this as a favorite. |
Yes, well, when you go onto a public forum and post your opinion, you should expect to have it analyzed and questioned by people trying to make sense of it. And pointing out when it doesn't and requesting an explanation that at least follows some sense of logic.
That's how forums work.
Seriously, what reaction did you expect?
I get where he is coming from.
He likes previous edition Psionics.
He likes the DSP updated Psionics.
He tries to share that like of a system with others.
Some complain that the feel is wrong (ignoring reflavoring for other settings/campaigns) or that the system is OP (ignoring the math involved and how some of the rules interact).
This happens enough that he gets disheartened.
This continues, even when he tries to discuss why those specific perceptions of Psionics and how Psionics in Play are actually very different.
Disheartenedness turns to genuine bitterness.
It's not as easy for some to shrug off the negative opinions of others. It's kind of what leads to this type of reaction sometimes...
. . . Jason Bulmahn, did an amazing job creating innovative new mechanics for the game, but started with the premise that he already had a pretty good game to build upon. He didn't wipe the slate clean and start over. . . he wanted to empower them with the ability to build on what they'd already created, played, and read. He didn't want to take anything away from them--only to give them even more.
One of the best things about the Pathfinder RPG is that it really necessitates no "conversion" of your existing books and magazines. That shelf you have full of great adventures and sourcebooks (many of them very likely from Paizo)? You can still use everything on it with the Pathfinder RPG. . . .
. . . So while the Pathfinder RPG is compatible with the 3.5 rules, it can be used without any other books. . . I hope that you find this system to be fun and simple to use, while still providing the same sort of depth and variety of options you've come to expect from a fantasy roleplaying game. . . .
Emphasis Mine.
Pathfinder converted most of the open content, but not all. Then, even though saying the systems are compatible and you can use other (3.5) materials, saying "Sorry, you can't use the stuff we didn't bother to include."
I can't say I am shocked at this point. PFS doesn't even include all of the options Pathfinder offers, so why would it offer the ability to play classes that they glossed over in the original conversion?
You know this. I know this. Maybe even intellectually Soulcleave knows this... but it doesn't negate his feelings.
I can connect the dots on EltonJ's and Soulcleave's comments because I've felt that way, too, from time to time. It's not always easy to be easy going when you have people telling you what you like sucks and doesn't belong in the game (doesn't fit the flavor/OP/glad it didn't get converted/happy to leave it behind kind of responses...).
But as has been mentioned, that's a conversation for another thread... one that will likely be jumped on by Psionics Naysayers. :\
So far, I am really having trouble getting away from Air/Earth/Fire/Water benders in my mind with the Kineticist.
This is not a bad thing. :)
I'd like to see more 2E psionic powers converted to psychic spell. I once had a berserker fighter with the Synaptic Static and Mind Link wild talents, and I couldn't recreate that feeling yet.
I'd like to see more 2E psionic powers converted to psychic spell. I once had a berserker fighter with the Synaptic Static and Mind Link wild talents, and I couldn't recreate that feeling yet.
I hope not. They aren't OGC. :)
Just pointing out the obvious. :)
-----------------------------
Actually, Mindlink is. BEHOLD!
Mindlink
Discipline telepathy [mind-affecting]
Level dread 1, telepath 1
MANIFESTING
Display Mental
Manifesting Time 1 standard action
EFFECT
Range Close (25 ft. + 5 ft./2 levels); see text
Targets You and one other willing creature within range that has an Intelligence score of 3 or higher
Duration 10 min./level
Saving Throw None; see text; Power Resistance Yes (harmless)
Power Points 1
DESCRIPTION
You forge a telepathic bond with your target. You can communicate telepathically through the bond even if you do not share a common language. No special power or influence is established as a result of the bond. Once the bond is formed, it works over any distance (although not from one plane to another).
Augment You can augment this power in one or both of the following ways.
1. If you spend 4 additional power points, you can attempt to create a telepathic bond with a creature that is not willing (Will save negates).
2. For every additional power point you spend, this power can affect an additional target. Any additional target cannot be more than 15 feet from another target of the power.
Mindlink, Thieving
Discipline Telepathy [Mind-Affecting]
Level Telepath 4
Duration 10 min./level (D)
Saving Throw Will negates; Power Resistance Yes
Power Points 7
DESCRIPTION
As mindlink, except that if the target is a psionic character or creature that knows powers, you can temporarily borrow a power of your choice (you are aware of what powers the subject knows, up to the highest level of power you can manifest).
Borrowing the subject’s power is a separate standard action that provokes an attack of opportunity. If the attack to borrow a power succeeds, the mental communication provided by this power ends immediately. The borrowed power fades from the subject’s awareness and appears within your own. You can now spend power points to manifest the borrowed power just as if it were one of your powers known. You maintain knowledge of the borrowed power until the duration of your thieving mindlink expires, at which time you lose knowledge of the power and the power reappears in the mind of the subject, no matter how far from you the subject is. Even if the subject is slain, you lose knowledge of the borrowed power when this power’s duration expires.
Augment For every 2 additional power points you spend, this power’s save DC increases by 1.
________________________________________
turn that into a spell or "wild talent" and you're golden.
Telepathic Bond serves that purpose too, though I'd like to have mind link at low levels too. A Synaptic Static- like power is much more desired and difficult- currently, I have to make my character a Mythic Guardian to achieve something similar.
The book WILL, by the way, contain stats for a tinfoil hat.
I'm gonna hold you to that, Mona! : D
This would cause Paizo an incredible amount of bad press.
Just becasue they can do a thing under OGL, doesn't mean they should, and so far they have not.
| 6 people marked this as a favorite. |
Caedwyr, you seem to lamenting the point that we're opting to interpret a concept mechanically different than how others have done it. By your logic, does that mean that Paizo should get upset by the fact third-party publishers are choosing to interpret the base mechanics in a different way? Should Paizo get upset about talented rangers and rogues? Over spell-less rangers? Detectives? People are going to have different interpretations of different themes, and the Open Gaming License *encourages* people to do that. You are no more required to use Paizo's interpretations than you are the third-party versions. Paizo opted not to use the point system for psionics—Dreamscarred has done more than a fine job regarding filling that niche for customers looking for that, and stepping on their toes for that is not something that is going to happen.
Next, on the topic of using third-party material in Pathfinder books—contrary to common belief, Paizo freelancers and even Paizo staff do *not* automatically get access to third-party material. Using these materials means that the freelancer must have access to it, rules will have to be added to the text written (eating up precious word count), and the developers also need access to it. There's a whole logistical chain that makes adding third-party material more difficult than you might believe, but it's not insignificant. (Also, you might not believe the sheer *volume* of Pathfinder compatible material that's available. It's enormous—thousands of products, and I'm not talking about our own.)
In conclusion, not every interpretation of a concept is going to be work for everybody. That's the beauty of the Open Game License and Open Game Content—we *can* make something that appeals to our design sensibilities, and others can do the same for themselves.
What disappoints me, is how often it appears that Paizo's developers/writers have not even done any investigation or learned from others who have already attempted to create something for the same topic. One example of this is the Medium which attempts to fill the same niche as the Occultist or some of the archetypes from Radiance House's Pact Magic series, but ends up being a much clunkier version with a number of ambiguities with respect to the influence system and the nature of the spirits which is handled more elegantly in Radiance House's books.
It could be that my expectations are too high, but it's still disappointing to see when 3rd Party publishers seem to be able to make it work amongst each other, but Paizo cannot. I could understand if it was something that schedule constraints prevented from happening, except it frequently occurs with products that have been out for...
Well, yeah, bad press.
--------------------
Okay, Liz Courts came back with a nice come back. :)
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
What I meant was, if a 3PP spent the time, energy and possibly money to market a successful idea, then Paizo just co-opted it, that 3PP would suddenly find him or herself out of money, because people would cease to purchase their product, and buy the "official" Paizo product, and there would be nothing the 3PP could do about it, because OGL.
You're basicaly saying it would have been a great idea if in 2010-2012 WotC, seeing that 4th ED wasn't as successful as Pathfinder, took the work Jason and the others put into Pathfinder, and re-released a repackaged "3.75" system as their own, simply because they could, just to make it 'more official'.
A lot of folks would have seen this kind of thing in a very poor light, and then WotC would have ultimately lost even more customers in that backlash.
Why would anyone think this is a good idea if Paizo did this?
Paizo has been clear for a very long time that they would not be using point based Psionics. We all knew they would do something, but they have always said it would not be point based.
Well seeing as none of that conversation on 3rd party quality is in any way related to the playtest, I fail to see why you're wasting everybody's time with it. While I absolutely disagree with you on every single thing you said, i think you should make a separate post if it's something you really want to discuss. And limit this board for actual constructive playtest feedback.
Yep....+1
Based on conversation with some Paizo folks, it's all they developers/designers can do to just stay on top of all the material produced by Paizo. Asking to stay up to date on 3pp is probably just too much.
This reads far more like 1E/2E Psionics than the 3E version. The old psychic attack and defense modes are now spells, they use a lot of the older terminology like Wild Talents and Disciplines. I know I'm getting all the old school feels from this!
--Brain Vrock
That was my first thought too! Tower of Iron Will! Intellect Fortress! It took me right back to my 1st edition days. :)
|
As with the Metal Elementalist Wizard in Ultimate Magic, I require an archetype or options for a metal-kineticist, and I would really enjoy a shadowmancer archetype/option (I saw Erik Mona's comment about not focusing on the Shadow Plane). Oh yeah, and an occultist archetype that can function as an artificer (Eberron) / artisan (3pp by Drop Dead Studios).
These classes all feel more flavorful than they are necessary additions. I definitely agree there is a more modern, Victorian-steampunk style to it. My creativity definitely leans toward a flavor like that of Rasputin Must Die!, and I probably wouldn't be opposed to that from Paizo (Iron Gods is pretty wonderful already).
Vudrani rakshasa mesmerists/psychics vs. lashunta psychic beast riders, for the win!
As with the Metal Elementalist Wizard in Ultimate Magic, I require an archetype or options for a metal-kineticistThat exists. It's an Earth Kineticist with Expanded Element (Earth).
Seriously, the Kinetecist reads SO much like Paizo going "Hey, here's our version of the Warlock, and, uh, just for so, we threw in plenty of ATLA flavor to effectively make this an [element]bender class, as well!"
---
Still hoping the whole "Psychic Spells" thing gets thrown out and the classes become either Arcane or Divine, though. The whole addition of Emotion seems like a nice idea, but ultimately too out-there and seems like it's too wonky of an addition to merit adding a whole new type of Focus.
The FLAVOR of Urban Fantasy classes is great, but I'm not in favor of making a whole new category of magic just because... especially when these classes all fit better thematically and mechanically into either Arcane or Divine.
The ONE exception I can see would be the Psychic. That class gaining "Manifestations" or other term, the same way that the Alchemist and Investigator use Extracts, would be make sense, since (like Extracts) there would likely be something both flavor-wise and mechanically different than traditional spellcasting to warrant these differences.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Still hoping the whole "Psychic Spells" thing gets thrown out and the classes become either Arcane or Divine, though. The whole addition of Emotion seems like a nice idea, but ultimately too out-there and seems like it's too wonky of an addition to merit adding a whole new type of Focus.The FLAVOR of Urban Fantasy classes is great, but I'm not in favor of making a whole new category of magic just because... especially when these classes all fit better thematically and mechanically into either Arcane or Divine.
The ONE exception I can see would be the Psychic. That class gaining "Manifestations" or other term, the same way that the Alchemist and Investigator use Extracts, would be make sense, since (like Extracts) there would likely be something both flavor-wise and mechanically different than traditional spellcasting to warrant these differences.
Disagree. Time for something new, IMO. We've got white chocolate divine and dark chocolate arcane. Gimme my milk chocolate middle ground darn it!
Whatever Paizo finally does with Occult Adventures, I wish that it would not be so much in need of errata as the Advanced Class Guide.