It also does not target a specific number of creatures or require an attack roll (it just explodes on its destroyer), so it's an excellent swarmkiller. Most swarms are contractually required to gnaw on all creatures in their area :D
For 4, it does not seem to have a radius. It only targets the creature that killed it. It does not even seem to need to be in melee with the creature it damages, rules as written. Currently, I think the wisp is mostly only good for penalizing area of effect abilities.There is no requirement that causing an attack of opportunity, that the offended actually takes it.
Say the destroyer shoots the wisp w a crossbow or magic missile, the death explosion still goes to the person who destroyed it?
Swarms don't get AoOs. But they do automatic damage to creatures in their space.
RPG Superstar 2008 Top 32, 2011 Top 16
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One thing that has bugged me a bit about the medium aside from the actual mechanics, is the decision to tie the spirits to the harrow deck. I finally realized one of the reasons why aside from simply not particularly liking the harrow deck for this purpose. Since the harrow deck is finite, does having this connection limit future expansion of the class?
For example, if there's no spirit that gives aquatic abilities, and for an underwater adventure path you want to create a spirit of the sea that lets you breathe underwater, summon whales, and be aquaman, thematically you'd be in a bind (no pun intended) since there's no undesigned harrow card spirits to sue.
One thing that has bugged me a bit about the medium aside from the actual mechanics, is the decision to tie the spirits to the harrow deck. I finally realized one of the reasons why aside from simply not particularly liking the harrow deck for this purpose. Since the harrow deck is finite, does having this connection limit future expansion of the class?
For example, if there's no spirit that gives aquatic abilities, and for an underwater adventure path you want to create a spirit of the sea that lets you breathe underwater, summon whales, and be aquaman, thematically you'd be in a bind (no pun intended) since there's no undesigned harrow card spirits to sue.
Pick an alignment, and an ability score, then add in "The Aquaman" for that medium and subtract whatever Harrow spirit holds that combination of alignment and ability score. Repeat as desired! :)
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Oh, so further Spirits would sorta be like archetypes for the Spirit they replace? That's kinda cool, though I can imagine trying to redo a whole set of Spirits (or, at the very least, coming up with a shorter list of alternate Spirits for a setting that doesn't have the Harrow stuff) would be like sixteen metric truckloads of work.
Oh, so further Spirits would sorta be like archetypes for the Spirit they replace? That's kinda cool, though I can imagine trying to redo a whole set of Spirits (or, at the very least, coming up with a shorter list of alternate Spirits for a setting that doesn't have the Harrow stuff) would be like sixteen metric truckloads of work.
Honestly, if you don't have the Harrow and don't want to do mechanics work, I'd say just keep all the powers as-is and merely refluff the names. Like say you want to do some Vodoun. Replace the names with similarish loa and you're set.
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I don't have the deck and I'm doing fine, but I was more asking in terms of people being worried that the Medium would never get any new Spirits in the future, because the Harrow Deck is already tapped out.
But if you can just swap stuff in and such, there's really no limit to how many new Spirits you can make - they just replace the Spirit that has the same Stat and Alignment.
Oh, so further Spirits would sorta be like archetypes for the Spirit they replace? That's kinda cool, though I can imagine trying to redo a whole set of Spirits (or, at the very least, coming up with a shorter list of alternate Spirits for a setting that doesn't have the Harrow stuff) would be like sixteen metric truckloads of work.Honestly, if you don't have the Harrow and don't want to do mechanics work, I'd say just keep all the powers as-is and merely refluff the names. Like say you want to do some Vodoun. Replace the names with similarish loa and you're set.
Or like the idea of using some of the cards to represent the Eldest. The spirits do not have to be specifically tied to the Harrow....it was just an interesting way of presenting them ;)
Mark, I think it's time for you to do some dice shaming if the new playtests from today/yesterday didn't result in a new spirit. That was like...4 in a row or more?
Get a hammer. Make an example of it. Let the other dice quake in fear.
If this is a setting neutral book then why are the spirits based on the harrow cards and not tarot cards?
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Because despite being themed on the Harrow, you don't actually require the Harrow. Each spirit is an archetypal idea, not a specific entity. As I've said before, my The Beating is not your The Beating. We are talking to fundamentally different entities that share archetypal traits.
You can call them something else if you prefer.
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If this is a setting neutral book then why are the spirits based on the harrow cards and not tarot cards?
Tarot cards are not integrally structured to map out to the 6 stats and 9 alignments, which are organizational principles familiar to all players of the game (even those who've never heard of Harrow cards), and thus an excellent choice for the structure of the Medium's spirits, making an admittedly complex process a bit more intuitive for people familiar with the game.
I mean, would you prefer them to have been organized into Physical, Spiritual, Mental, Magical, and Social categories, with the ones within each category referred to by colors? Because the Green Physical card sounds a lot less intuitive and more confusing than, say, the CN Strength card. Or prefer for them to not have been organized at all? Because that sounds exceedingly confusing. I guess you could organize by School of magic, or Domain, but the first steps on the Occultist's toes a bunch and the second is almost as bad as no organization...and how would you organize within those categories anyway?
Being a pre-designed set of wide-ranging archetypes, the Harrow also provide an excellent and rather complete archetype listing that you can easily use to reflect most mythos/pantheons in one way or another, which is also definitely a concern in making a list of spirits both viable and comprehensive. And not true of the Tarot, which aren't mostly designed to represent specific individuals, but situations. That's true of Harrow cards as well, but a much larger percentage of them are at least presented as individuals (for Tarot it's probably less than a third of the deck that are actually designed to do that, depending on how you count).
There's also either 22 or 78 cards for use in this sort of thing in a Tarot deck (depending on whether you're only counting the major arcana), and that first number is likely a bit low (and maps really poorly to any specific structure), while the second is way too many.
In short, even just as an observer, the decision to use the Harrow cards is convenient, clever, and makes for much easier use of the Class. They're not intended to be restricted to that particular paradigm thematically, either, so it's only a thematic concern from a metagame perspective...which seems a trifle silly to worry about given the advantages.
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If this is a setting neutral book then why are the spirits based on the harrow cards and not tarot cards?
It might also be worth mentioning that basing the spirits on either harrow or tarot cards would be setting-dependent either way. It's probably unavoidable when you create a class that depends on an external thing or things of any kind; those external dependencies are going to come from the setting.
So if Mark's stuck using a setting-dependent theme, he might as well use something Golarion-ish with all of the advantages that have been pointed out previously.
Any word on the new class ability being released today ???
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I might reveal details tomorrow (it's pending a playtest). But yeah, I'm off today. :)
I might reveal details tomorrow (it's pending a playtest). But yeah, I'm off today. :)
Oooopppsss.....sorry....ENJOY ;)
I might reveal details tomorrow (it's pending a playtest). But yeah, I'm off today. :)
Are you playtesting today as planned?
#nerdharassment
I like that people are talking as though the Deck of Many Things isn't PRD.
If Occult Adventures is going to be a non-PRD book, then okay, use the Harrow Deck idea all the live-long-day.
If it's a PRD book, then couldn't the Deck of Many Things be the basis for the names? Or else have the names be more akin to role-archetypes, like:
STRENGTH
LG The Champion
NG The Hero
CG The Vigilante
LN The Soldier
TN The Warrior
CN The Gladiator
LE The Enforcer
NE The Brigand
CE The Ravager
DEXTERITY
LG The ???
NG The ???
CG The ???
LN The Hunter
TN The Acrobat
CN The Marksman
LE The Assassin
NE The Thief
CE The Reaver
CONSTITUTION
LG The Guardian
NG The Savior
CG The Defender
LN The Warden
TN The Patron
CN The ???
LE The Cleaner
NE The Blackguard
CE The Revenant
INTELLIGENCE
LG The Master
NG The ???
CG The ???
LN The Architect
TN The Scholar
CN The Maven
LE The Schemer
NE The Mastermind
CE The Maniac
WISDOM
LG The Mentor
NG The Herald
CG The Healer
LN The Judge
TN The Sage
CN The Philosopher
LE The ???
NE The Racketeer
CE The Conqueror
CHARISMA
LG The Shepherd
NG The ???
CG The ???
LN The Arbiter
TN The Virtuoso
CN The Scoundrel
LE The Mobster
NE The Despot
CE The Outlaw
If the names were more akin to character themes/archetypes, it'd allow for a bit more RP possibilities, as the player could then name the Spirits they contact, as well as give them backstories.
It would help to further the theme of summoning deceased spirits in a seance.
As the Spirits are right now, several are too specific and abstract to really allow for easy interpretation and application like that. They feel more like forces of nature (ala the Spirits from the Shaman), rather than deceased NPCs.
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That actually brings up another oddity: they're "Spirits," but "Spirits" already exist in the Shaman class; those, however, are aspects of nature, ala Native American Spirits or Shinto Kami/Megami.
If "Spirits" in the Medium are supposed to be dead creatures, changing the term to something like "Shades" would help to differentiate between this class mechanic and the one from the Shaman.
If "Spirits" in the Medium are supposed to be forces, like in the Shaman, then why not use the Shaman Spirits as a basis for this class mechanic, the same way Domains are shared among several classes?
This is really more an aesthetic issue, though - just something I'd noticed a while ago.
I've noticed that some spirits count as other types of spirits. If a spirit counts as an additional type of spirit, then do you gain the Spirit Bonus of both types?
Example: 20th Level Medium with the Teamster spirit. By seancing with this spirit, do you gain +6 to hit and damage (Strength Spirit Bonus) and +6 to Will Saves and Concentration Checks in addition to the normal Constitution Spirit Bonus?
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I've noticed that some spirits count as other types of spirits. If a spirit counts as an additional type of spirit, then do you gain the Spirit Bonus of both types?
Example: 20th Level Medium with the Teamster spirit. By seancing with this spirit, do you gain +6 to hit and damage (Strength Spirit Bonus) and +6 to Will Saves and Concentration Checks in addition to the normal Constitution Spirit Bonus?
You do.
While this applies, it also counts as matching for other spirits. For example, with the Teamster going as you swuggest, if you've got the Bear as a secondary or tertiary spirit you suddenly get claws and go up two size categories as well.
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I've noticed that some spirits count as other types of spirits. If a spirit counts as an additional type of spirit, then do you gain the Spirit Bonus of both types?
Example: 20th Level Medium with the Teamster spirit. By seancing with this spirit, do you gain +6 to hit and damage (Strength Spirit Bonus) and +6 to Will Saves and Concentration Checks in addition to the normal Constitution Spirit Bonus?
I asked the same question earlier in this thread; I am pleased to tell you that the answer is yes.
Theres kinda a problem I found with the Charisma Spirits not giving a boon, which is that if:
A) You have 1 or more charisma spirits
B) that are NOT your primary spirit (ie your secondary, tertiary, or quaternary spirits)
Whichever one is your charisma spirits is your first one in the hierarchy, that spirit will effectively be giving no benefits, as it is the First spirit in the charisma category (meaning it gives no powers) and thus also gives no spirit bonus.
This might just be a matter of wording, as it would work fine if the charisma spirits after the primary instead defaulted to powers. However this has the problem of allowing the charisma spirits to give more powers then the other spirits (because normally the other spirits have to have at least one of them giving the bonus, not the powers).
Another alternative would be for the Charisma spirits to actually give a boon, one such idea was a reroll on a d20 (taking the new result) # of times per day = to the spirit bonus
SOooo....nothing from Mark ?
That Mark is a tricky fellow and could be eating dinner in preparation for playtesting and 11pm PST postings.
It could happen. I'm tellin' ya.
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So as it turns out, the playtest medium was too busy being amazing in other ways to really use the new ability much. I was in another playtest tonight and same thing. However, that's actually a good thing in some ways, as her build was one that was already strong, so I'm glad the new option was not outshining the stuff she already had. It is meant to add more flexibility and versatility for all mediums and especially more good options for low-level mediums who have neither particularly high Str or Dex (who presumably have high Cha) to have some reasonable actions to take. I am likely to reveal the ability tomorrow at work!
Sounds good, Mark. Thanks :-)
Looking at the title, I thought the thread had some esoteric insight on the things held in common by all medium-sized creatures. :p
Probably what I get for trying to make sense of the boards while sleep-deprived.
Since I unlocked the third spirit in his thread, the third spirit has been chosen by our very own PFS developer, John Compton! As befits his love of bards, it's the Wanderer.
First, some points to note:
1) Obviously this isn't legal in PFS
2) This is in a rough format, so it's missing sections of flavor and the wording is very preliminary. Virtually no one has read this except me (and now you guys). It also might not look anything like the final spirit for that reason. Extra note: Unlike the last two, which I sneakily made sure didn't have this quality. Wanderer is going to have some spells that are in OA, so it's spell list has some ?. Feel free to suggest interim spells to fill those ? in this thread though!
3) In the final version of the book, as mentioned in the sidebar "Alignments in the Playtest", you will be looking for exact alignment matches. That means that if you add any of these new unlocked spirits, you may want to consider removing another spirit from your playtest as well (in this case, the Hidden Truth).
So behold, in its unformatted glory!
Spirit Bonus (Intelligence): Spirit bonus to all skill checks.
Spells: 1st—borrow skill, crafter’s fortune, identify; 2nd— locate object, ?, ?; 3rd—?, pilfering hand, ?; 4th— analyze dweomer, ?, ?
Séance Boon: +2 bonus to Appraise
Compulsion: Hoarder
Spirit Powers:
1st: Seen It All—You can use all skills untrained.
7th: Dabbler—Add double the Wanderer’s spirit bonus to all skills in which you have no ranks
13th: One Man’s Trash—When using non-masterwork nonmagical weapons, armor, or shields that are not made of a special material, they gain an enhancement bonus equal to the Wanderer’s spirit bonus –1 (maximum +5). They lose that bonus whenever they are enhanced by any spell, spell-like ability, or supernatural ability other than this one, or if they otherwise gain other special abilities in any way.
19th: True Worth—As a standard action, you may roll an Appraise check on any simple object you can see. You unlock that object’s true potential and learn the perfect way to use that object. By describing how you use the object to assist you, you may gain an insight bonus as if you had cast moment of prescience with a caster level equal to your Appraise result – 10. This ability lasts until you use the bonus, until you no longer have the Wanderer active, or until you unlock the true worth of another object, whichever comes first.
Run more medium playtests for more chances to reveal preliminary notes on another spirit!
I have also added all three unlocked spirits to the thread's second post (my first post in the thread) as well as who unlocked them, for easier access.
That looks remarkably useful. As in, I can see reasons to have more than 12 or 14 CHA at level 1 now. Love it!
Any updates regarding the new ability?
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I find the Wanderer both exciting and disappointing.
Exciting because, as with many spirits, it looks like you can do something fantastically weird with it--I really want to try a thrown weapons build with it. I think it might be the perfect spirit for that, plus you get skills!
It's a little disappointing because said build has got to figure out what the heck it's doing until it can at least trance to that ability at level 7. That's a lot of levels to go without the power you're building the character around.
As a side note, I like and approve of the enhancement bonus of spirit bonus -1 calculation.
That looks remarkably useful. As in, I can see reasons to have more than 12 or 14 CHA at level 1 now. Love it!
Any updates regarding the new ability?
I love the Wanderer. In fact, I love it more than the Hidden Truth, and in playtest with all the prelim spirits, the playtester did too (it was a favorite). However, can you guess why Hidden Truth is in the playtest and not Wanderer (it may be a pretty easy riddle).
As to the new ability, I'm going to wait to avoid spamming too much stuff all at the same time. I'll let Wanderer sink in for now while I refine the wording of the ability (it has never existed except in my head and oral description, until now).
I find the Wanderer both exciting and disappointing.
Exciting because, as with many spirits, it looks like you can do something fantastically weird with it--I really want to try a thrown weapons build with it. I think it might be the perfect spirit for that, plus you get skills!
It's a little disappointing because said build has got to figure out what the heck it's doing until it can at least trance to that ability at level 7. That's a lot of levels to go without the power you're building the character around.
As a side note, I like and approve of the enhancement bonus of spirit bonus -1 calculation.
I'd say go Forge or Uprising, which have similar but different powers (Uprising lets you throw random farm implements at things with rather high accuracy and damage boosts, Forge gives you martial things to throw and a smaller freebie weapon enhancement).
I think Seen it All is a little underwhelming by itself. I feel like skills that require training don't come up super often and when they do, the rogue or wizard probably has it covered. Would I be overzealous in thinking that skills that can be used untrained should get some kind of bonus?
Dabbler does make Seen it All a little more attractive, though.
One man's trash is neat, but I would be happier if it could be imbued with a short list of additional enchantments for those studious mediums who would like to specialized in intelligence. I know that makes applying the enhancements to each new weapon you pick up potentially cumbersome, but as the power stands right now, it is not getting any better as the game goes on. Perhaps the medium would have to decide on one single additional enchantment when you bind the spirit? I dunno. Just my two cents on this particular power.
I think Seen it All is a little underwhelming by itself. I feel like skills that require training don't come up super often and when they do, the rogue or wizard probably has it covered. Would I be overzealous in thinking that skills that can be used untrained should get some kind of bonus?
Dabbler does make Seen it All a little more attractive, though.
One man's trash is neat, but I would be happier if it could be imbued with a short list of additional enchantments for those studious mediums who would like to specialized in intelligence. I know that makes applying the enhancements to each new weapon you pick up potentially cumbersome, but as the power stands right now, it is not getting any better as the game goes on. Perhaps the medium would have to decide on one single additional enchantment when you bind the spirit? I dunno. Just my two cents on this particular power.
You're probably looking for The Forge there. It's main deal is putting in different weapon powers (just like its Harrow reading about strength through variety). It doesn't have the skilly powers of the Wanderer.
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I'd say go Forge or Uprising, which have similar but different powers (Uprising lets you throw random farm implements at things with rather high accuracy and damage boosts, Forge gives you martial things to throw and a smaller freebie weapon enhancement).
Sounds like a good plan.
In fact, I love it more than the Hidden Truth, and in playtest with all the prelim spirits, the playtester did too (it was a favorite). However, can you guess why Hidden Truth is in the playtest and not Wanderer (it may be a pretty easy riddle).
Hmmm. Well, the easy answer is because of the spell list issue you already pointed out! Might be too easy though.
I'd say go Forge or Uprising, which have similar but different powers (Uprising lets you throw random farm implements at things with rather high accuracy and damage boosts, Forge gives you martial things to throw and a smaller freebie weapon enhancement).Sounds like a good plan.
In fact, I love it more than the Hidden Truth, and in playtest with all the prelim spirits, the playtester did too (it was a favorite). However, can you guess why Hidden Truth is in the playtest and not Wanderer (it may be a pretty easy riddle).Hmmm. Well, the easy answer is because of the spell list issue you already pointed out! Might be too easy though.
Correct. I couldn't very well release a spirit with such a sparse spell list. I did say it was easy ;)
As to the new ability, I'm going to wait to avoid spamming too much stuff all at the same time. I'll let Wanderer sink in for now while I refine the wording of the ability (it has never existed except in my head and oral description, until now).
OK Mark....that's just cruel...I have a play-test this weekend to prepare for :(
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As to the new ability, I'm going to wait to avoid spamming too much stuff all at the same time. I'll let Wanderer sink in for now while I refine the wording of the ability (it has never existed except in my head and oral description, until now).OK Mark....that's just cruel...I have a play-test this weekend to prepare for :(
It'll be there before this weekend. Probably my next post in this thread, even (though someone is going to post something for me to respond and prove me wrong, I know it :D)
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I reverse-psychologied you all! Bwahahahaha!
Ahem. I mean, here's the new ability everyone. Format and wording are rough, of course!
Beseech Spirit (Su): As a standard action, you call upon one of the spirits you know how to contact, whether you have that spirit active or not. You can beseech each spirit you know how to contact once per day, and the spirit does not gain any influence over you. There is a varying effect depending on the type of spirit.
Strength--All foes in a radius of 5 feet per spirit bonus take 1d6 damage per spirit bonus (Will save for half DC 10 + 1/2 medium level + Cha modifier).
Deterity--You move your movement speed + 5 additional feet per spirit bonus. This movement does not provoke attacks of opportunity.
Constitution--All living allies in a radius of 5 feet per spirit bonus heal 1d6 damage per spirit bonus.
Intelligence--After using this ability, when you roll a skill check, after seeing the result, you can add 1d6. This ability lasts until you use it once per spirit bonus or until a number of mintues pass equal to spirit bonus, whichever comes first.
Wisdom--You gain blindsight 10 ft per spirit bonus for a number of rounds equal to spirit bonus.
Charisma--Choose any of the above five powers.
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Okay, yes, I approve.
EDIT: Is this ability gained at 1st level?
Probably not, given the class is already extremely dippable for tasty lesser powers. But certainly no later than 3rd.
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Being able to use the spirits you aren't currently using is nice, especially for low-level.
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Being able to use the spirits you aren't currently using is nice, especially for low-level.
It is also of particular use for exactly the mediums who need it most. For instance, Hangman Henry's medium with tricked out Cha and low in everything else gets ~7 uses per day of this ability.
So, I'm assuming that Spirit Specialization would impact each individual one, but how does it interact with Charisma specifically given that you pick the bonus? Does it just apply to whatever the heck you want it to?
So, I'm assuming that Spirit Specialization would impact each individual one, but how does it interact with Charisma specifically given that you pick the bonus? Does it just apply to whatever the heck you want it to?
If you have specialization in Charisma, you get a better effect every time you use a Charisma spirit, regardless of which of the 5 you use it for (but if you use a Charisma spirit for Strength, you don't benefit from Strength specialization). You wanna double down on Charisma spirits? I'm happy to make that option cooler for you!
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I dig it. Gives more reasons to have better than the bare-minimum Charisma, and gives some additional nice options on top of that. And since you're not hamstringed by alignment or ability score, it gives you some nice toys to play with, regardless of what your primary spirit is.
While you've got the time, I suggest you edit your spoiler to include you can use it a number of times a day equal to your Charisma modifier, if that's how it works. :)
I like it. I especially like how it scales and how it should reinforce a degree of system mastery without being overwhelming. It also gives a really nice boost for having different attributes represented, which was a pretty big concern of mine.