@Shiroi
Honestly, most of what you ask would be doable with the perceived idea of what telekinesis is. The line is really stuff like animating an army of suits. I could see a bunch of suits being flung (kinda the default usage of the Simple Blast for Aether anyhows), and in the process creating difficult terrain... or even whirling them in a spin that had their arms extended through centrifugal force. But animating them (even if puppet-strings is the concept) would be impossible for the same reasons that trying to play a Wii game (or any console game)with 2 controllers for 2 characters at once is pretty impossible. And the clunkiness of trying to actually use one well in a fight should be obvious....
The throwing a kitchen full of knives would surely be ok. Most won't hit and at least half that do hit wouldn't be hitting pointy-end-first (though I could indeed imagine it being possible to not only get all the pointy ends hitting first, but all the knives... at higher levels, indicative of the greater damage the Simple Blast does at higher levels...). But again, this is just the default simple blast being put to use (though I would allow an AoE as a possibility, and maybe some burn).
The trebuchet example is too magical though. I could see you whipping the trebuchet across the battlefield like a blunt instrument, but not getting it to look like a beast in action, slamming things with its oversized arm. You could even get the trebuchet to launch heavy objects (even without the counterweight). But there's a point where it stops being telekinesis and starts being arcane, and that's a point I'd hate to see this class cross.
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I really don't see how moving a suit of armour to make it walk doesn't fit telekinesis... Your moving the suit telekinetically with your mind.... It doesn't suddenly become a character from Beauty and the Beast, it is just something your moving, which is completely and utterly in telekinesis's range of abilities.
And to add to what Shiroi said... A Telekinetic is moving, not possessing a suit of armour. Suits of armour, without a person inside, are actually fragile, and come apart rather easily. A solid punch will likely remove that arm from the suit of armour. Similarly with other objects, like a trebuchet... When using it in a method not created for, you tend to break it unless it is possessed.
Pretty sure Aether is used due to its definition as the fifth element. The element that accomodates movement and motion (though scientifically, that had more to do with celestial bodies and how light travels, if I remember correctly).
I wonder if the Kineticist class would fit the theme of this book more if its power came from elemental spirits rather than him just opening a gate to the elemental planes?
Heck, it would be pretty awesome for a pyrokineticist to be getting his flames from the spirit of a gold dragon or something.
A persona user like archetype would be cool, having a physical manifestation of your psyche as a creature(animal companion, eidolon, phantasm, etc.).
I would like an ability that acts as the animate object spell. You could control a object and it would work like the animate object creature but limited by size and number like only one large or bigger object but maybe multiple smaller ones would be cool.
I'd rather a persona user-like archetype over a telekinetic ghost companion archetype. Especially when persona user archetype can work with all of the elements rather than just Aether and Air.
Archetype idea....
I'm thinking what this class most needs is a more utility-based capacity. The problem being that the BAB is medium and the damage is high. So, thinking about creating an archetype that has "stunts" at the cost of BAB. Check this out... :D
**NOTE: This is not intended to be "as powerful" as the base class, quite the opposite. It's intended for doing things and perhaps battlefield control in lieu of damage.
ARCHETYPE NAME (Undecided)
Prerequisites: Kineticist with primary element of aether.
Reduced BAB: At 3rd, 7th, 11th and 15th level gain a cumulative -1 to class BAB.
(This puts it equal to low-BAB classes except at 19th/20th level)
Specialists: At 5th, 8th and 13th level, treat your level as a cumulative +1 (6th, 10th and 16th) for the purpose of qualifying for Wild Talents.
(Not entirely sold on this, but some of the stunts I envision need some higher-level Talents earlier to be useful. Of note, with the probable +1 Wild Talent feat, it works like this. If such a feat doesn't exist, this would change to "At 8th level, treat your level as +2 for the purpose of qualifying for Wild Talents").
STUNTS: Starting at 4th level, every time you gain a Wild Talent you gain 2 Stunts that you meet the prerequisites for.
Here are some example stunts I have written on paper, a beginning to what I hope to be an exhaustive list. :) I sincerely hope many people will add in stunts of their own.
- Reactionary Defense: Prerequisites = Touchsight + Force Barrier. For 1 burn, you can as an immediate action react to an attack with a raised barrier which grants you a DR 10/Magic. You can change this to either DR 15/Magic or DR 10/- by spending an additional Burn.
- Force Wall: Prerequisites = Kinetic Cover + Force Barrier. Your Force Barrier can be in the shape of a wall extending a length of 5' + 5'/2 levels.
- Telekinetic Flight: Prerequisites = Telekinetic Finesse + Self Telekinesis + Telekinetic Haul. As a standard action you gain a supernatural fly speed of 30'(Good). This improves to 60'(Perfect) with Self Telekinesis, Greater. The effect lasts until you dispel it, or it is dispelled.
- Ranged Theft: Prerequisites = Telekinetic Finesse + Touchsight. You can steal from a range of 30' on a successful Sleight of Hand roll with a +2 bonus. This range extends to 120' if you have the Extended Range Talent but without the +2 bonus. If used in combat on a target within 30', the target does not get the +5 to his CMD, but you do not get the +2 bonus.
- Combat Trip: Prerequisite = Telekinetic Haul + Telekinetic Finesse. You can perform the Trip combat maneuver with the range equal to your telekinetic blast. Use Dexterity in place of Strength, and use your level in place of you BAB for your combat maneuver bonus.
- Repulsion: Prerequisites = Many Throw + Telekinetic Maneuvers. As a full round action, you send anything within 30' and not fastened to the ground, flying. Everything is pushed 5' per point of burn (up to your maximum burn), directly away from the telekinetic unless it is stopped by an un-moving object such as a wall. Anyone who succeeds in a Fortitude save takes no damage and remains in place. Everything else takes half damage as if hit by a telekinetic blast. The burn from this stunt cannot be offset by any means.
- Whirlwind: Prerequisites = Many Throw + Telekinetic Haul + Telekinetic Finesse. As a standard action you create a whirlwind with a 10' radius of flying objects which grants total concealment. Entering or starting your turn in the area of the whirlwind causes 1d6 points of nonlethal bludgeoning damage.
- Many Hands: Prerequisites = Telekinetic Haul + Telekinetic Finesse. You are treated as having a number of hands equal to your dexterity bonus when using Light Touch. This still allows for an amount of weight that Telekinetic Haul grants, but the total amount of weight for all the objects can not exceed the limitation of Telekinetic Haul.
- Enemy Toss: Prerequisites = Foe Throw + Telekinetic Haul + Extended Range. Target makes a fortitude save or gets tossed 120' into the air, taking appropriate falling damage if applicable. This stunt always costs 1 burn which can not be offset in any way. This requires a standard action.
- Fickly Fingers: Prerequisites = Telekinetic Finesse + Touchsight. You can simulate physical effects and senses such as setting off traps, feeling how sharp something is, etc. While having no combat advantage, it would be felt if you slapped someone in the face with this, or pulled their hair. Anything you can do with Light Touch can be "felt" as you do it.
I like the idea of dropping FtB, it does make more sense than manually editing the BAB in the archetype.
The trouble with making more talents is, there's already too many talents. Even if I do every feat as a +1 Talent, there's at least 20 talents I need/want (and waiting til level 20 for it all is painful since most are well below level 20 at power level). Didn't really understand what you meant about burn for six or ten.
Pre-requisite was only Aether, not air. And honestly, just because I never bothered to even look at the other elements. I only know Aether, and trying to write something for stuff I don't know would be wrong. I'd be perfectly ok with Stunts that covered all different elements, but I couldn't write them.
We have force-grapple (Telekinetic Maneuvers). The reason I went ahead and added some but not all of the Telekinesis maneuvers was because that Talent already exists. Didn't want to make it a moot point to take that Talent.
Suggested FEAT for the class: (different topic than the other stuff)
Reduced Cost Talents:
Prerequisite: Level 6 Kineticist.
Get 2 first level kinetic talents of your primary element instead of a level four talent when selecting your Wild Talents.
Advanced Reduced Cost Talents:
Prerequisite: Level 10 Kineticist, Reduced Cost Talents.
Get 2 level four kinetic talents of your primary element instead of a level 6 talent when selecting your Wild Talents
Etc....
@Sphynx
I have wondered some times in this thread if you were maybe playing a different game than me.
First, the damage should be high, but isn't, yet. Given that 1d6 is 3.5 average, kineticists deal 4.5+con at level 1, while an npc warrior with a greatsword and power attack does 10+1.5str. At level 3, kineticists are up to 10+con, but, yeah, still less. You'd think it gets better at 5th, but power attack goes up at 4th, so it's 14.5+con vs. 13+1.5str.
Now, empowered,yeah, our damage spikes up, but that means we finally beat an npc warrior, but only if we can empower and only if they don't have, say, cleave.
A fighter would have more feats and weapon training and a magic weapon in there (a barbarian would have rage, paladin smite, etc.), so, even empowered, our hits are not as strong and our accuracy is lower, too (which is ok, if we get enough damage to actually balance that).
Second, none of those stunts look especially useful to me. CL + Casting stat is quickly rendered pointless as a CMB substitute because CMD scales too fast, and anyone serious about maneuvers needs magic items, feats, and size increases to have any hope of staying relevant. Plus, 90% of combat maneuvers are pointless anyway and you'd contribute more just hitting them.
Force Wall looks "ok" and enemy toss ranges from useless (indoors, ceilings rarely eclipse 20 feet and lots of enemies can fly) to ridiculous (12d6 danage at like 6th level is kind of excessive).
If you want battlefield control, you need ways to inflict conditions--create zones of difficult terrain, inflict entangled, sickened, staggered, grappled, stunned, etc., zones of damage, etc.
So, I am curious, what are your games about? What happens in a typical one that would make this archetype worthwhile?
For the ranged touch attack blasts, such as electric, cold, or fire blasts, would the Mage's Crossbow be any useful for the kineticist?
This +2 light crossbow is made of silver that never needs to be polished.
A mage's crossbow is especially effective against creatures with spell resistance. Against such creatures, the weapon's effective enhancement bonus increases to +3, and it deals an additional 1d6 points of damage. Whenever the wielder casts a spell that requires him to make a ranged touch attack (such as a ray) while he has the crossbow in hand, he gains a bonus on his ranged attack roll equal to the crossbow's enhancement bonus against the target creature. If the spell hits, the caster also applies this bonus to the caster level check to overcome the target's spell resistance (if any) and on the spell's damage roll (if any).
Does casting a spell-like ability, such as a fire blast, count for the "whenever the wielder casts a spell that requires him to make a ranged touch attack" requirement of the weapon to benefit the attack roll bonus and caster level check against spell resistance?
I hope that meeting occurs soon. I will be playing a hydrokineticist this weekend. I'm excited to play this class.
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Rather than specific cantrips you could just easily alter the Element ability at level one to say that you can freely conjure small amounts of your element at will for various effect.
It could quickly explain that fire could create a small flame like the Spark cantrip, air could do something like Breeze, Water could create a gallon of water like Create Water or the Drench cantrip. Earth could what make an amount of unworked soil, replace simple materials like the mending spell? That last one is getting pretty arcane.
That's what I'm saying, you replace FtB entirely from the class in this archetype, and instead get Talents EVERY level instead of every other (if balance requires you to get 10 extra talents in place of FtB) or an Extra Talent every time you would otherwise have gotten an increase to FtB (if 6 is the number of Talents that would be equivalent to FtB), or some similar situation in which you get additional talents at certain levels in place of getting the bonus to-hit and damage of FtB. Then your "Stunts" can become talent ideas that most normal Kineticists would never need/want/have the room to take, but a Kineticist with your "Talented" Archetype would have ample room to take advantage of.If you still really want to deny the regular Kineticist access to these "Stunts" you could instead make them Talents that this Archetype has access to, on a separate list that the normal Kineticists don't see, but I don't see a huge reason to make that distinction since most Kineticists are struggling to get their regular talents anyways,...
The thing is, when I was first coming up with the idea, the ideas were things that the existing talents could already questionably do. (Such as using Finesse to Steal, but in combat). It just got expanded further than intended I suppose. Also, it would require that all these "stunts" be available at the same level as their prerequisites. I understand wanting to stick to existing mechanics, but just not sure that's right for this. :/
I think that it will be good, some sort of cantrips level element manipultion. It will not empower the class but surely it will but more in line with its tematics and in the end, more fun.
+1
Then our Light Touch (Aether) could be "free" as well, since that's the Cantrip level for our path. :D
@Sphynx
I have wondered some times in this thread if you were maybe playing a different game than me.
You know that's insulting. However, yes, I'm sure we all play the game differently than others.
First, the damage should be high, but isn't, yet. Given that 1d6 is 3.5 average, kineticists deal 4.5+con at level 1, while an npc warrior with a greatsword and power attack does 10+1.5str. At level 3, kineticists are up to 10+con, but, yeah, still less. You'd think it gets better at 5th, but power attack goes up at 4th, so it's 14.5+con vs. 13+1.5str.
Now, empowered,yeah, our damage spikes up, but that means we finally beat an npc warrior, but only if we can empower and only if they don't have, say, cleave.
A fighter would have more feats and weapon training and a magic weapon in there (a barbarian would have rage, paladin smite, etc.), so, even empowered, our hits are not as strong and our accuracy is lower, too (which is ok, if we get enough damage to actually balance that).
That's all a fighter does though... that's all a Barbarian does. We (as Kineticists) aren't focused purely on combat, we have a whole slew of options as a utility class. I don't even consider taking blast infusions, and the few times I actually decide to blast something instead of out smart the NPC(GM), I did great damage. Losing the ability to hide behind Kinetic Cover lost some of my utility admittedly, but I'm still prone to using TK over Blasts in my games. Our group considers it a good game if we can overcome the obstacles without anyone ever knowing we were there (which means leaving no bodies behind). And nobody in our group has ever made a character with optimization in mind. We have our leader a Human Warrior of the Holy Light. A Human Qinggong Monk (focused on mobility). A Gnome Illusionist that only has Illusion spells. A Half-Elf Cleric with Exploration and Liberation. A Human Lion Shaman Pack Lord. And me, previously a Sylph Wizard of the Element Air, now a 1st level Aether Kineticist (still a Sylph).
Second, none of those stunts look especially useful to me. CL + Casting stat is quickly rendered pointless as a CMB substitute because CMD scales too fast, and anyone serious about maneuvers needs magic items, feats, and size increases to have any hope of staying relevant. Plus, 90% of combat maneuvers are pointless anyway and you'd contribute more just hitting them.
Sounds like you're not playing either E6 or E8.
If you want battlefield control, you need ways to inflict conditions--create zones of difficult terrain, inflict entangled, sickened, staggered, grappled, stunned, etc., zones of damage, etc.
The objective isn't battlefield control. It's theme, being able to actually do the things you'd imagine a telekinetic individual could do if not bound by mechanics... and making the mechanics fit that image.
So, I am curious, what are your games about? What happens in a typical one that would make this archetype worthwhile?
Well, last game we infiltrated an Orc camp (silently) to get the battle plans from the command tent and sabotage the war machines. Game before that we assassinated their head Shaman to free the Duke's daughter, and had to battle a demon as well as the Shaman and his minions. (This is where I did massive damage to the demon in a previous post). Game before that we scoured the city to find the Orc's spies that were trying to collect intel and provided them with false information while our Gnome tricked them into telling us where the hidden camp was located.
Honestly, I can think of a dozen times that a telekinetic intervention would have been useful. Admittedly, I already miss my Gaseous Form spell which I used almost every game, but as a Wizard I'm not only use to doing zero damage in a game, but also in acting as a utility character. Even my Wizard, whose memorized spells were always limited to as many Invis spells as I can do, as many Gaseous Forms as I can do, and Fog spells (Obscuring Mist and Fog Cloud) plus 2 Elemental Body per day. Feats were Spell Mastery (never looked at a book), Eschew Materials, and Fast Study.
So I concur that optimization is not really my thing, I'm about theme. I like planning, getting a birds eye view of a place and plotting in advance what to do, bribing people for plans, spending time in archives looking for plans, etc... I know a lot of people just charge into battle, but that's not really our group's thing.
PS. Previously I quit responding to Kinetic Cover because Mark stepped in and said it wasn't to be used as written. But Kinetic Cover was awesome (if used as concealment) when you have a group that, of 6 members, 4 have Stealth skills exceeding 20 and often stacked with invisibility in particular for those of the group that don't have any Stealth ranks. Hiding anywhere, while waiting for cover to clear (as the players behind it move to different cover) so you can move to less obvious cover, was a useful tool. One thing our group is sorely going to miss is the collection of Invisibility spells memorized per day by my previous character
You know that's insulting. However, yes, I'm sure we all play the game differently than others.
I honestly didn't mean it insultingly at all. Your take on this class is so radically different from everyone else's, though, and I'm not sure how else to put it.
That's all a fighter does though... that's all a Barbarian does.
Yes, Fighters are terrible. But Barbarians had more skill points than we did, and Rage Powers offered more utility than Kineticists really had access to before level 6 or so, if you chose them correctly.
Look at what can be done pre-6 utilitywise: Air gets feather fall, bull rush, and the ability to shoot farther. Earth can make walls and bullrush. Fire can move small amounts of fire around. Water can bullrush, heal, walk on ice, cast Grease, and make cover. Aether can heal, cover, bigger mage hand, and use Sleight of Hand and Disable Device with their mage hand.
That's...not really much utility at all. That's less than pretty much every non-fighter class gets access to.
And for the record, ANY class can pick up a Greatsword and Power Attack for just as much damage. Clerics, Inquisitors, Rangers, Paladins, Bards could do it with a Longspear...it's not just a Fighter/Barbarian thing. Two-handed weapons are just really powerful in Pathfinder.
We (as Kineticists) aren't focused purely on combat, we have a whole slew of options as a utility class.
I want that to be the case, but, haven't found it to be yet. I trust that Mark won't let us down and that we'll get some awesome utility, but in the playtest document, Fire has absolutely none, Air just gets to fly, Water and Earth at least can move around their elements and do useful stuff and get tremorsense (Though, only after taking crappy 1st tier talents), and Aether just gets to, very slowly, get traditional telekinesis.
Our group considers it a good game if we can overcome the obstacles without anyone ever knowing we were there (which means leaving no bodies behind).
And that's awesome. But you have to realize how atypical that is. I can't decide if I would find that totally awesome, or if I would say to the group, "Why the hell are we playing Pathfinder, a game geared 90% around combat, instead of one of the hundreds of other RPGs better suited for this kind of stuff.
And nobody in our group has ever made a character with optimization in mind. We have our leader a Human Warrior of the Holy Light. A Human Qinggong Monk (focused on mobility). A Gnome Illusionist that only has Illusion spells. A Half-Elf Cleric with Exploration and Liberation. A Human Lion Shaman Pack Lord. And me, previously a Sylph Wizard of the Element Air, now a 1st level Aether Kineticist (still a Sylph).
None of those sound especially unoptimized except the Monk. Illusions, especially, are powerful and awesome.
Sounds like you're not playing either E6 or E8.
Oh, how I wish I could--my current group won't go for it or it's all would play. But considering Kineticist doesn't even get access to their real utility powers until 6th and the extra wild talent feat available doesn't let you take more than 1st level powers, I sure as hell wouldn't be a Kineticist in E6.
And while E6 and E8 make combat maneuvers less of a losing proposition since CMD never goes out of control bonkers too high, they're still mostly useless. At level 5, I would be stunned to find that knocking someone prone could contribute as much to a fight as smashing them with an empowered 3d6+Con blast.
The objective isn't battlefield control. It's theme, being able to actually do the things you'd imagine a telekinetic individual could do if not bound by mechanics... and making the mechanics fit that image.
Sure, but I would want those mechanics to actually help me in the game.
Admittedly, I already miss my Gaseous Form spell which I used almost every game, but as a Wizard I'm not only use to doing zero damage in a game, but also in acting as a utility character.
So, you went from one of the classes with the best utility in the game to one with practically none, and you're hoping to shave off the corners of the square peg and fit it in the round hole? ;)
Honestly, as I said, I hope we get a lot more utility, I just can't imagine looking at the class now and saying, "Oh, yeah, Kineticist is a utility class."
So I concur that optimization is not really my thing, I'm about theme. I like planning, getting a birds eye view of a place and plotting in advance what to do, bribing people for plans, spending time in archives looking for plans, etc... I know a lot of people just charge into battle, but that's not really our group's thing.
That's possibly a little insulting, too, you know. I prefer those things, too. That's why I optimize. You know, so my plans work. :)
Yeah, when I ran my hydrokineticist through your test gauntlet, putting water in the lock and freezing it was how I bypassed your door obstacles. Water does that, so I did that. I can't wait to really get Water Manipulator in the game I am actually playing...
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Do you want to have a meeting?
And talk about kineticists?
I think your final thoughts are overdue
I've started posting to
A closed down thread upon the boards!
We should have a bunch more damage
But now we don't.
I wish you would tell me why!
Do you want to have a meeting?
It doesn't have to be a meeting.
Ok, bye...
;)
Speaking of meetings, has the meeting we're all waiting for finally happened yet?
If the Aerokineticisit can't paint with all the colors of the wind, then Mark has failed :P
/joke
Utility wise, I'd like to see the Aerokineticist be able to manipulate air currents in lots of ways. For example, scattering the smoke the comes out of a fire, so people can't see it from far off. Or cloaking their scent from that of animals or monsters, using the winds to increase the movement speed of the whole party (similar to longstrider, but he'd be able to increase the effect to that of haste, by shortening the duration).
His ability to manipulate the air should allow for interesting mechanics with sound, like using ghost sound ventriloquism, message, or whispering winds. I'd like to see the aerokineticist be able to cloak himself in the winds and become invisible, or if invisibility is out of the question, mimic the effects of the spell chameleon stride and it's greater version. There is, of course, the whole gust of wind and river of wind and similar spells she should be able to mimic, if only by default, which she currently can't, as well.
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Fortunately, there's still plenty to be done even if the meeting keeps getting delayed. Oh my, what's this slipping out of hands and into a spoiler block? Is it a potential new infusion write-up? My hands must be getting shaky with all this waiting. ;)
Unraveling Infusion
Element fire; Type substance infusion; Level 6; Burn 3
Prerequisites kineticist level 10th
Associated Blasts blue flame, fire
Saving Throw none
Your kinetic blast burns so hot that it melts away your foe’s magical effects. Whenever an infused blast hits a foe and penetrates spell resistance, you may roll an opposed caster level check as if using a targeted dispel magic, before determining if the foe takes damage from the blast. You may choose to reduce the blast’s damage by half to increase your bonus on the caster level check by 2. If you do not choose a specific spell effect to attempt to dispel, you automatically attempt to dispel spells that would protect the target from fire damage before all other spells.
Fortunately, there's still plenty to be done even if the meeting keeps getting delayed. Oh my, what's this slipping out of hands and into a spoiler block? Is it a potential new infusion write-up? My hands must be getting shaky with all this waiting. ;)
** spoiler omitted **
Now that is awesome--makes me wish I had any interest in pyrokinesis.
Any reason why it doesn't work with blasts like magma? I mean, magma and plasma is generally rather hot.
Regardless, it is rather cool to be able to dispel magic effects and protection with fire.
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Now that is awesome--makes me wish I had any interest in pyrokinesis.Fortunately, there's still plenty to be done even if the meeting keeps getting delayed. Oh my, what's this slipping out of hands and into a spoiler block? Is it a potential new infusion write-up? My hands must be getting shaky with all this waiting. ;)
** spoiler omitted **
My goal is to make you have interest in kineticists of all types!
Oh my, how tempting it might be with this potential additional line on burning infusion! "All fire kinetic blasts gain a +2 to DCs and on attack rolls and caster level checks to overcome SR against a creature that is on fire from this infusion."
I still want to play my Pyrokineticist, and I now want to play Tamotsu that much more. I'm going to burn away literally everything.