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hmm maybe fire could get like a dodge bonus to AC? lol sort of like a flickering flame is hard to hit? dosnt give them a miss chance, and it dosnt step on toes of water, since water gets armor/shield asorbing the blows for you is how i see water, earth making your skin strong, i havent read up on the air and aether defense things lol
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To expand on the bit about psychology, the psychological power of the heat defense is likely to be stronger than even the mathematical value of the defense itself would indicate. One thing about players and GMs, people in general, is that we tend to overvalue bad things, negatives, and drawbacks. Someone is much more willing to give up a +2 bonus than they are to suffer a -2 penalty, for instance. It's actually the very same instinct that makes some people reluctant about burn. And you have that power on your side with heat. The person who's running the opposition (whether you're a GM with an evil pyro or a player with a heroic pyro) is likely to overvalue the sting of heat, the drawback ot presents, when making a decision about who to attack, which is a good thing anyway particularly when the pyro's opponent is human because it's also a more realistic portrayal, as opposed to the clinical chessmaster-like approach that we sometimes see where characters on both sides act more like pieces.
To give an example of what I mean, I've seen numerous situations like this one in games: a monk refusing to help punch skeletons that were dealing him 1d6 fire damage on each punch, only to cause the skeletons to live long enough to do more than that much damage to somebody else.
That psychology bit is interesting mlp. Game design vis-a-vis the psychology of players actually intrigues me a lot. I would say that the main time you know more-or-less for sure that something was dissuaded by your flames is when it hits you, gets burned, and then switches targets to somebody else rather than do that again. I believe I did have that happen once.
Whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa. Let's not go down the 'game design based off psychology' route. That's something Destiny is currently doing: link to reddit.
TL/DR: Bungie's head of User Research has a Ph.d in Behavioral and Brain Studies and, before he worked at Bungie, was a part of a team that studied methods of achieving addiction in lab mice and took that experience into the game design of Destiny.
It's scary effective.
Let's stay away from mind f+~!ing your player base please.
That psychology bit is interesting mlp. Game design vis-a-vis the psychology of players actually intrigues me a lot. I would say that the main time you know more-or-less for sure that something was dissuaded by your flames is when it hits you, gets burned, and then switches targets to somebody else rather than do that again. I believe I did have that happen once.Whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa. Let's not go down the 'game design based off psychology' route. That's something Destiny is currently doing: link to reddit.
TL/DR: Bungie's head of User Research has a Ph.d in Behavioral and Brain Studies and, before he worked at Bungie, was a part of a team that studied methods of achieving addiction in lab mice and took that experience into the game design of Destiny.
It's scary effective.
Let's stay away from mind f+!*ing your player base please.
Oh no no no. Not that kind of behavorial/addiction stuff like in the Facebook energy games where they hire staff behaviorists to make it more addictive. But in the sense of improving play experience by considering how people think about mechanics.
Yeah, it not doing anything to a large group of enemy type is a problem.
To expand on the bit about psychology, the psychological power of the heat defense is likely to be stronger than even the mathematical value of the defense itself would indicate. One thing about players and GMs, people in general, is that we tend to overvalue bad things, negatives, and drawbacks. Someone is much more willing to give up a +2 bonus than they are to suffer a -2 penalty, for instance. It's actually the very same instinct that makes some people reluctant about burn. And you have that power on your side with heat. The person who's running the opposition (whether you're a GM with an evil pyro or a player with a heroic pyro) is likely to overvalue the sting of heat, the drawback ot presents, when making a decision about who to attack, which is a good thing anyway particularly when the pyro's opponent is human because it's also a more realistic portrayal, as opposed to the clinical chessmaster-like approach that we sometimes see where characters on both sides act more like pieces.
To give an example of what I mean, I've seen numerous situations like this one in games: a monk refusing to help punch skeletons that were dealing him 1d6 fire damage on each punch, only to cause the skeletons to live long enough to do more than that much damage to somebody else.
Indeed. That's why I think the psychology of the situation would be improved by expanding the number of targets. Just natural attacks feels limited in scope, despite being quite common. If you let it hit armed attackers but for half damage, it feels more solid, even if it's less damage, because it feels less limited.
removing the saves also helps. Making it a flat amount instead of a dice based amount will help save time in the combat, which I feel DMs would appreciate.
Given that it's heat, one possibility could be that it does the following to armed attackers: Ignore hardness on wooden weapons, metal weapons conduct heat so either drop your weapon or take half damage, attacker's choice. I like that latter bit because it yet again allows psychology to potentially mitigate damage, by denying them iteratives if they refuse to take the damage.
Yeah, it not doing anything to a large group of enemy type is a problem.
Well if it's a literal swarm, it'll likely hit the swarm for more than the swarm hits you, since their damage isn't all that high, they're just annoying.
I think you mean like this situation:
I'm a level 13 pyrokineticist, and I'm being attacked by the CR=my level encounter of 8 dire bears. I pick this in part due to having my pyro's stats at level 13, making this an easy analysis to run. Since the bears divide out their hits on you, you'll drop from damage far before they do, so except for the psychological factor (or a GM roleplaying bears as wanting to avoid taking fire damage since they are animals), you won't get a clean KO like before. I'm interested in seeing what happens if my pyro fights 8 dire bears. I'll even use the current version with save negates and check back when I find out!
Yeah, it not doing anything to a large group of enemy type is a problem.Well if it's a literal swarm, it'll likely hit the swarm for more than the swarm hits you, since their damage isn't all that high, they're just annoying.
I think you mean like this situation:
I'm a level 13 kineticist, and I'm being attacked by the CR=my level encounter of 8 dire bears. I pick this in part due to having my pyro's stats at level 13, making this an easy analysis to run. Since the bears divide out their hits on you, you'll drop from damage far before they do, so except for the psychological factor (or a GM roleplaying bears as wanting to avoid taking fire damage since they are animals), you won't get a clean KO like before. I'm interested in seeing what happens if my pyro fights 8 dire bears. I'll even use the current version with save negates and check back when I find out!
The large group of enemies being referred to here is "anyone wielding a weapon."
The large group of enemies being referred to here is "anyone wielding a weapon."Yeah, it not doing anything to a large group of enemy type is a problem.Well if it's a literal swarm, it'll likely hit the swarm for more than the swarm hits you, since their damage isn't all that high, they're just annoying.
I think you mean like this situation:
I'm a level 13 kineticist, and I'm being attacked by the CR=my level encounter of 8 dire bears. I pick this in part due to having my pyro's stats at level 13, making this an easy analysis to run. Since the bears divide out their hits on you, you'll drop from damage far before they do, so except for the psychological factor (or a GM roleplaying bears as wanting to avoid taking fire damage since they are animals), you won't get a clean KO like before. I'm interested in seeing what happens if my pyro fights 8 dire bears. I'll even use the current version with save negates and check back when I find out!
Ohhhhhhh, he meant [large group of] enemy types rather than [large group of enemy] types...Can I still fight the bears?
Does a swarm's melee attack, like a spider swarm's 1d6 + poison + distraction damage, count as a natural attack for searing flesh to be triggered?
I know it's not categorized as a natural weapon, but if it's a creature/swarm's sole melee attack, seems like it should trigger searing flesh at the very least.
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Given that it's heat, one possibility could be that it does the following to armed attackers: Ignore hardness on wooden weapons, metal weapons conduct heat so either drop your weapon or take half damage, attacker's...To expand on the bit about psychology, the psychological power of the heat defense is likely to be stronger than even the mathematical value of the defense itself would indicate. One thing about players and GMs, people in general, is that we tend to overvalue bad things, negatives, and drawbacks. Someone is much more willing to give up a +2 bonus than they are to suffer a -2 penalty, for instance. It's actually the very same instinct that makes some people reluctant about burn. And you have that power on your side with heat. The person who's running the opposition (whether you're a GM with an evil pyro or a player with a heroic pyro) is likely to overvalue the sting of heat, the drawback ot presents, when making a decision about who to attack, which is a good thing anyway particularly when the pyro's opponent is human because it's also a more realistic portrayal, as opposed to the clinical chessmaster-like approach that we sometimes see where characters on both sides act more like pieces.
To give an example of what I mean, I've seen numerous situations like this one in games: a monk refusing to help punch skeletons that were dealing him 1d6 fire damage on each punch, only to cause the skeletons to live long enough to do more than that much damage to somebody else.
Indeed. That's why I think the psychology of the situation would be improved by expanding the number of targets. Just natural attacks feels limited in scope, despite being quite common. If you let it hit armed attackers but for half damage, it feels more solid, even if it's less damage, because it feels less limited.
removing the saves also helps. Making it a flat amount instead of a dice based amount will help save time in the combat, which I feel DMs would appreciate.
ooooh that sounds awesome Mark, that makes me want to pick up the fire defense even more lol, all those pesky do-gooder knights with their fancy swords having to drop their weapons when attacking me would be awesome lol gives ya a chance to back up and rain fire down upon their heads! woo! lol
Is there any chance we can get a clarification on unworked stone for Move Earth? Some have said it means you can't move any stone that has been modified at all, and others say it only means you can't move stone that's been turned into things like bricks.
I think the whole 'unworked stone' thing is a stupid limitation and makes no sense in the context of things.
A stone is a stone, whether it's in a castle wall, a statue, or part of a mountain. Realistically, worked stone is easier to break than none-worked stone as the worked stone has undergone repeated blows and pressue resulting in microfractures through-out the stone.
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The bears come at me en masse with the intent to surround me. I'm not even sure how all 8 will fit around me. They just do somehow. I use a new form infusion that isn't in the playtest to blast four of the bears when they are really packed together before they reach me. Due to Con>Dex, my Ref DC for the blast is worse than for my substances, so one of the bears saves. Regardless, they all survive, but the ones that fail lose a good chunk. Then they all come at me and surround me, attacking once each with a claw. They all miss. Forced into melee, I consider my options. I had taken Blade as a back-up, so I can try it, but it will probably do less total damage than blasting them with AoE. I decide to hit them all by making myself ground-zero, even though I may still take damage if I fail my save. As expected, though, I make the save. Three of the eight bears save. One of the ones that saved was the one that saved before. The ones that failed twice are looking in terrible shape. Finally, one of the bears hits me, and it's the worst thing possible: One of the bears that I didn't hit first time, that made its save second time, and it hits with a claw, so it grabs. The good news is that it fails its save vs heat (expected), so it takes heat from the claw and then again at the end of turn automatically for the grapple. Those two instances of heat did very slightly below average, but more than half its full hp, and it's in very bad shape now. If it hadn't been one of the bears that made its save, it might be down. But now I have a much higher chance of being hit, and I need to make a concentration check that is nontrivial even though I built for concentration to make my blade or use a blast. I still have >50% success rate, but I fail, and two more bears hit me. They both take heat damage, and they aren't looking good. My anti-friend the grappling bear manages to pin me and then knocks himself out from the auto-damage (had it not, I can still use my blast while pinned if I make the conc check). I thus avoid all other hits until my own turn, when I ground-zero myself again. This time the bears get lucky and 3/7 save. This drops three of them. I now face 4 bears. One hits and drops itself before it can even see if it grapples. Miraculously another one, the currently least injured again (darnit!) hits, taking heat, and then manages to grapple, but the second heat drops it. I easily dispatch the last two bears.
Also my empowered blast is actually hurting me even on a successful save. It's worth it. So in this fight, I drop three bears from that second AoE that hits myself. My anti-friend the grappling bear still gets his grapple going and goes down at the same time (end of his second turn of grapple), but I avoid one of the potshots that happened during the grapple. I then drop two more, and one takes itself out, allowing me to dispatch the last.
tldr: First I did a fight where I foolishly forgot to use empower for no adequately explored reason. Then I did a fight where I didn't forget that. Then I used burn just for fun.
Maybe we can think a little farther out? Maybe in addition the flames can make you act as if you had Deflect arrows in addition to what it currently is?
Like you burn down incoming projectiles or the heat alters their course.
Maybe more Burn can also, at a slow rate, increase the number of deflected projectiles.
Searing Flesh should totally exist, I just don't think it should be the base Defense.
I agree with this. I think it'd actually make a solid optional talent (I'd probably use it) and maybe go with a miss chance as some others have suggested. Chance you don't hit at all and you can hurt yourself if you do because I used a talent? That sounds sort of awesome.
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Searing Flesh should totally exist, I just don't think it should be the base Defense.I agree with this. I think it'd actually make a solid optional talent (I'd probably use it) and maybe go with a miss chance as some others have suggested. Chance you don't hit at all and you can hurt yourself if you do because I used a talent? That sounds sort of awesome.
I wouldn't be averse to the opposite, personally. Giving Fire access to the Shimmering Mirage talent while retaining Searing Flesh as its defense would be excellent.
Maybe we can think a little farther out? Maybe in addition the flames can make you act as if you had Deflect arrows in addition to what it currently is?
Like you burn down incoming projectiles or the heat alters their course.
Maybe more Burn can also, at a slow rate, increase the number of deflected projectiles.
Hmm, I can say I certainly did consider it, but I'd say let's work on making it solid against melee, which is where it's starting for now. That way it gives room for fire/air to be a sweet combo that covers both bases, rather than fire doing it all on its own. That said, I have been considering the ability to burn arrows before they hit (a la Deflect Arrows like how Missile Shield is also a la deflect arrows) as a wild talent for fire for sure, with the same visuals you mention. When I'm considering things, they might not make it due to space if something cooler needs that space, but they also might make it.
I wouldn't be averse to the opposite, personally. Giving Fire access to the Shimmering Mirage talent while retaining Searing Flesh as its defense would be excellent.Searing Flesh should totally exist, I just don't think it should be the base Defense.I agree with this. I think it'd actually make a solid optional talent (I'd probably use it) and maybe go with a miss chance as some others have suggested. Chance you don't hit at all and you can hurt yourself if you do because I used a talent? That sounds sort of awesome.
I'd be much more likely to do that, though part of me thinks that should be a goody for fire/water hybrids.
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I'd be much more likely to do that, though part of me thinks that should be a goody for fire/water hybrids.
Honestly, I had to double check Shimmering Mirage wasn't already for fire users! When I think of the image that name conjures up, I think of heat, not water~
EDIT: And perhaps it still can be for that hybrid *hinthint*? I hate to deny things from one element, but Water dooooes already have arguably the best defense.
I'd be much more likely to do that, though part of me thinks that should be a goody for fire/water hybrids.Honestly, I had to double check Shimmering Mirage wasn't already for fire users! When I think of the image that name conjures up, I think of heat, not water~
EDIT: And perhaps it still can be for that hybrid *hinthint*? I hate to deny things from one element, but Water dooooes already have arguably the best defense.
Water's is fairly consistent, but it's also the most replacable by items. I can say that if my level 1 pyro received shroud of water completely for free and burned it to max on the shield (armor is irrelevant since she has an armor that gives +9 already), it would either provide between +2 and +4 AC depending on if she's expecting a fight. That certainly isn't a trivial gain, though, and she could have saved cash knowing she would have that defense and buy other cool stuff.
Not for the Kinetcicist it isn't. Since you need both hands free to Gather Energy, you can't use an actual shield effectively.
couldnt you just use a buckler then? sure a bit less ac but still its a shield to upgrade that lets your hand be free lolGather Energy would use the hand the Buckler is on, negating its bonus to AC, as per Buckler rules.
Yup. I still carry a +1 buckler on her in case I'm doing a full attack with kinetic blade or moving about (or flat-footed), just since 1000 gp is nothing at level 13. She also is a big fan of wands and staves that have shield in them, which she could avoid if she had shroud. She probably wouldn't part with her armor though as it gives her flight 1/day if she needs it.
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couldnt you just use a buckler then? sure a bit less ac but still its a shield to upgrade that lets your hand be free lolGather Energy would use the hand the Buckler is on, negating its bonus to AC
huh wierd i thought you only loose the bonus when you attack with a weapon in the hand with a buckler
"if you use a weapon in your off hand, you lose the buckler’s AC bonus until your next turn"
gather energy isnt a weapon, and you dont need both hands to shoot the energy balls lol, or im probally missing something lol
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huh wierd i thought you only loose the bonus when you attack with a weapon in the hand with a buckler
"if you use a weapon in your off hand, you lose the buckler’s AC bonus until your next turn"
gather energy isnt a weapon, and you dont need both hands to shoot the energy balls lol, or im probally missing something lol
You can cast a spell with somatic components using your shield arm, but you lose the buckler's Armor Class bonus until your next turn.
This is the relevant part of the buckler description, I would presume.
For fire defense... I'm surprised I didn't see anyone say this, but wouldn't a fire aura make sense for their defensive ability? It's much more applicable in general use than the current ability and is still very flavorful.
couldnt you just use a buckler then? sure a bit less ac but still its a shield to upgrade that lets your hand be free lol
Putting aside that it's always been pretty ambiguous whether you have a free hand when using a Buckler or not, by 10th it's a free +4 to AC, which you'd have to spend a solid 10k to replicate (9k for the +3-ness, 1k for Mithral so you don't take a -1 to attack rolls since you're not proficient).
It's not really a worthwhile trade at any level.
Yup. I still carry a +1 buckler on her in case I'm doing a full attack with kinetic blade or moving about (or flat-footed), just since 1000 gp is nothing at level 13. She also is a big fan of wands and staves that have shield in them, which she could avoid if she had shroud. She probably wouldn't part with her armor though as it gives her flight 1/day if she needs it.couldnt you just use a buckler then? sure a bit less ac but still its a shield to upgrade that lets your hand be free lolGather Energy would use the hand the Buckler is on, negating its bonus to AC, as per Buckler rules.
2k. Still nothing, but I'm assuming you don't want to take a -1 to all attack rolls.
2k. Still nothing, but I'm assuming you don't want to take a -1 to all attack rolls.Yup. I still carry a +1 buckler on her in case I'm doing a full attack with kinetic blade or moving about (or flat-footed), just since 1000 gp is nothing at level 13. She also is a big fan of wands and staves that have shield in them, which she could avoid if she had shroud. She probably wouldn't part with her armor though as it gives her flight 1/day if she needs it.couldnt you just use a buckler then? sure a bit less ac but still its a shield to upgrade that lets your hand be free lolGather Energy would use the hand the Buckler is on, negating its bonus to AC, as per Buckler rules.
I should be fine without mithral due to the MW removing the 1 ACP. I may have bought mithral anyway for style points alone.
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I don't think that is relevant though..
Spell-Like Abilities (Sp) Spell-like abilities are magical and work just like spells (though they are not spells and so have no verbal, somatic, focus, or material components)Blasts are SLA right? so no somatic of both hands. Gather energy isn't an attack either. and you can unleash a blast via one hand.
So I was understanding that you'd never lose the buckler ac
I was in question myself, until Mark posted
Yup. I still carry a +1 buckler on her in case I'm doing a full attack with kinetic blade or moving about (or flat-footed)
The fact he is mentioning it being useful in situations he is not gathering energy seems to indicate the buckler doesn't work with it.
I don't think that is relevant though..
Spell-Like Abilities (Sp) Spell-like abilities are magical and work just like spells (though they are not spells and so have no verbal, somatic, focus, or material components)Blasts are SLA right? so no somatic of both hands. Gather energy isn't an attack either. and you can unleash a blast via one hand.
So I was understanding that you'd never lose the buckler ac
I was in question myself, until Mark posted
Yup. I still carry a +1 buckler on her in case I'm doing a full attack with kinetic blade or moving about (or flat-footed)The fact he is mentioning it being useful in situations he is not gathering energy seems to indicate the buckler doesn't work with it.
I've personally been ruling that the gathering energy use of both hands that requires that they be "free" is as much of a requirement for them as somatic components are for the hands vis-a-vis bucklers in my games, but I do see the potential for the other direction too.
*Bops head*
I always forget Masterwork removes 1 ACP. Don't mind me.
Regardless, Water's defense is pretty solid, even when not using Burn is the main point I was getting at. All of the defenses should be around that level. IMO Kineticist defenses, if Burn HAS to do so much damage, and HAS to be unhealable, need to be based around him not getting hit, not having effects when he does get hit (Aether, Earth, and Fire all do this to greater or lesser degrees). Or have options, anyway, one for "Stay away!" and one for "Well, that didn't suck as much, getting hit".
Earth giving a Natural Armor bonus instead of DR (instead of meaning "as another option").
Fire granting...anything else. Or, if it MUST be an offensive defense like this...let it add the extra fire damage to all his melee attacks? Gives Fire a slight damage boost.
Water maybe having an option for healing ala the Spontaneous Healing Alchemist Discovery, or having a sort of "cold armor" granting DR of some kind (Piercing?).
Aether a Deflection bonus to AC.
Air...hm. Air is hard. Something lightning based. Perhaps something that forces a Reflex save from someone who hits you with a metallic weapon or it gets stuck to you (effectively Ref vs Disarm).
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I don't like the continuous assumption that a character would be going Multi-element.
The fact is that a lot of people want to go mono-element with their concept and the final release needs to allow those players to be just as well off and optimized as someone with multiple elements.
At the very least if that can't be done then an archetype rewarding Mono-element needs to exist.
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I don't like the continuous assumption that a character would be going Multi-element.
The fact is that a lot of people want to go mono-element with their concept and the final release needs to allow those players to be just as well off and optimized as someone with multiple elements.
At the very least if that can't be done then an archetype rewarding Mono-element needs to exist.
While I don't think balancing every mono-element to be as optimized as a multi-kin is possible, or that it should be attempted, I do agree there is very little incentive in mono-kins at all (most talents/blasts that do work off of taking your element with expanded make it feel like a tax at best.)
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Masters of singular elements are much more common in fantasy.
Not making Monoelements a valid and optimized choice would be like telling Rangers that a 2 weapon fighting style is invalid.
You wanna be Drizzt or Legomyegolas? Sorry, but that two weapon fighting build is only good if you also combine it with full plate!
Yes this is nonsensicle, but that's what it's like when people say "well just expand into Earth" when all I wanna be is the Human Torch.
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Masters of singular elements are much more common in fantasy.
Not making Monoelements a valid and optimized choice would be like telling Rangers that a 2 weapon fighting style is invalid.
You wanna be Drizzt or Legomyegolas? Sorry, but that two weapon fighting build is only good if you also combine it with full plate!
Yes this is nonsensicle, but that's what it's like when people say "well just expand into Earth" when all I wanna be is the Human Torch.
Amen my fiery brother! woo lol XD
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Masters of singular elements are much more common in fantasy.
Not making Monoelements a valid and optimized choice would be like telling Rangers that a 2 weapon fighting style is invalid.
You wanna be Drizzt or Legomyegolas? Sorry, but that two weapon fighting build is only good if you also combine it with full plate!
Yes this is nonsensicle, but that's what it's like when people say "well just expand into Earth" when all I wanna be is the Human Torch.
Is the ero-fanfic this fiery?