My players (and me) are debating on this problem. One points that by the description of illusions, you can disbelief mirror image, if you roll good enough on spellcraft when it is cast. The same with invisibility. And while the spell is still on, the character who rolled can see the enemy via illusion (efficiently switching off mirror image or invisibility for his eyes). Then he points that studying carefully (standard or full-action) by watching mirror image that is on enemy (with even attacking him once, for interaction) he can try to disbelief the spell. Other moment, that when hit from invisibility (greater), he can try to disbelieve it, because being hit by invisible foe is a good enough interaction with him (and so with the spell).
Other player just points out that mirror image and invisibility doesn't have disbelieve will check, so the description for disbelieving is not applied to this kind of spells. He doesn't agree ether with disbelieving this spells by successful roll on spellcraft when they are cast (no disbelieve save).
And there's an idea that mirror image can be seen through, by observing that some objects are passing them "no-clip" style. Like fighting in grass can point via good perception where is the original standing (the grass around and under "original" is bent, while around and under mirror images is not).
So the question is, do you get disbelieve check for image mirror, invisibility and other spells of this kind? Or it's better to go with compromise, that you can disbelief them only by successful spellcraft roll, while the spell is cast?
it's not trying to fool you with a phantasm.
simmilarly isn't trying to fool you into thinking there are multiple people
I can argue that it does try to fool you. It's true, glamers and figments doesn't appear in the mind of viewing character, but they do warp environment in such way, that it tricks perception organs. Basically spell creates and sends false information, that characters perceive and are fooled in the end from this kind of misdirection.
And yes, I as GM I can rule as I desire, but still, I'll appreciate any kind of feedback to make a final decision, that seems appropriate.
RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32
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Saving Throws and Illusions (Disbelief): Creatures encountering an illusion usually do not receive saving throws to recognize it as illusory until they study it carefully or interact with it in some fashion.
A successful saving throw against an illusion reveals it to be false, but a figment or phantasm remains as a translucent outline.
A failed saving throw indicates that a character fails to notice something is amiss. A character faced with proof that an illusion isn't real needs no saving throw. If any viewer successfully disbelieves an illusion and communicates this fact to others, each such viewer gains a saving throw with a +4 bonus.
I don't see anything in there that automatically grants you a saving throw against all illusions categorically. Therefore, we go by normal spell rules, which means that you only get to make saving throws if the spell description says so.
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With Mirror Image, you're not supposed to believe that the guy your fighting has a bunch of identical siblings who just showed up. You're just supposed to be confused by it. Disbelieving doesn't make it go away.
And yes, it's a bit weird that there's never a way to tell which one is the real one, since logically there would be clues, but there's no mechanism for that.
But isn't successful spellcraft check when the spell is casted enough valid proof to get it (if assuming that you don't automatically assume that illusion is false)? Or if you do attack mirror image/invisible character, doesn't it go for "interact in some fashion" for purpose of receiving a saving throw?
To interact with a mirror image, you'd have to physically interact with each one. But when you do that, they disappear anyway.
Some illusion spells, like Silent Image, say:
"Saving Throw: Will disbelief (if interacted with)"
If it doesn't say that, the disbelief rules don't apply.
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But isn't successful spellcraft check when the spell is casted enough valid proof to get it (if assuming that you don't automatically assume that illusion is false)? Or if you do attack mirror image/invisible character, doesn't it go for "interact in some fashion" for purpose of receiving a saving throw?
No, and no. It's obvious that there's an illusion there -- you don't need a Spellcraft check to "get" that much, but it doesn't help, because you still don't know which of the mirror images are illusions and which one is real.
Similarly, if I'm talking to you (invisibly), it's obvious that I'm invisible, but that still doesn't allow you to see me.
And you still don't get a saving throw against spells that don't allow them, so the "interact to get a saving throw" rules don't apply.
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But isn't successful spellcraft check when the spell is casted enough valid proof to get it (if assuming that you don't automatically assume that illusion is false)? Or if you do attack mirror image/invisible character, doesn't it go for "interact in some fashion" for purpose of receiving a saving throw?
You can only receive a saving throw if there is a saving throw to receive.
It's like catching a ball that nobody threw. And doesn't exist. And you have no arms.
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But isn't successful spellcraft check when the spell is casted enough valid proof to get it (if assuming that you don't automatically assume that illusion is false)? Or if you do attack mirror image/invisible character, doesn't it go for "interact in some fashion" for purpose of receiving a saving throw?
Nothing about being an illusion gives you a save against a spell that doesn't allow saves. Period.
With Mirror Image, you're not supposed to believe that the guy your fighting has a bunch of identical siblings who just showed up. You're just supposed to be confused by it. Disbelieving doesn't make it go away.
And yes, it's a bit weird that there's never a way to tell which one is the real one, since logically there would be clues, but there's no mechanism for that.
The spell says they constantly walk through one another and the real caster. Even if you momentarily figured out which was the real one the rest would walk around each other.
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LazarX summed it nicely. No disbelief checks are warranted as dealing with the interactions with these spells are already in place.
Ex:
An illusory wall that has been disbelieved still exists. The disbelievers CAN NOT see through it normally. They CAN interact with it as if it doesn't exist, but it is still solid looking, just something is wrong with it.
Knowing that there are illusory images about doesn't get rid of the spell applications. You still see them and they still confound the senses. (no saving throw)
My interpretation:
The "clipping" aspect is built into the spell as the images superimpose on themselves and the caster several times throughout the round. It is no basis for seeing which is the "real one".
There is nothing that allows using terrain to identify the correct "image". Note: the images are in your square so if the person is watching the ground to see where the puddle ripples or dust clouds are forming I would rule them flatfooted because they are busy studying the opponents feet and not the dagger in his hand...
Spellcraft (my take):
All casters are unique in their casting style. It's more an educated guess than absolute knowledge. Just because you can cast lightning bolt doesn't mean you automatically recognize it. Yes the fur and glass rod may offer a big clue something painful is coming, it does nothing against a sorcerer who has eschew materials, although you may still recognize it from other cues. Spell craft is more like an overview of all your knowledge leads you to think it is spell X.
I never deal in absolutes with players. It's not "Summon Monster II", it's "A conjuration spell appearing to be Summon Monster... most likely of the second tier". I always leave room for doubt. The certainty is based roughly on the success amount they passed the check by. So, Knowing (thinking) a spell is illusion based I would give them a bonus on the disbelieve check (but only if one is allowed).
Naturally, I agree with the part "Doesn't allow save - No save". But my players do create situations that begin debates at the table. Ans yes, I can cut them down just saying "this work that way, period". It's that I prefer to end debates with some solid arguments, not just by using GM authority.
Last session there was an invisible enemy. One of the players bumped in her while exiting the room. It was good enough for pinpointing, but another player asked, doesn't he get a disbelieve save (I said no, but as you see, the question came back). And on the next round, invisible enemy jumped away with a reflex roll from aquatic orb. Player expressed his opinion, that before she jumped away, her shape was partially outlined by water, and it was an interaction for purpose of another disbelieve roll.
Disbelieving doesn't make it go away.
But being figments, they just remain as "translucent outline" for the viewer who theoretically made a successful disbelieve. Yes, the don't go away for you, but you're able to understand who's who.
The spell says they constantly walk through one another and the real caster.
Spells says they inhabit caster's square and mimic his actions. Nothing about crossing each other. Which gives room for some interpretation (for my players).
Spellcraft can identify the spells if you see them cast, and if you want to time it you might even guess how powerful of a mage you are dealing with if you are around for the full spell duration. You can also counterspell with a proper spellcraft check.
Spellcraft does not negate mirror image or invisibility (though true seeing works wonders).
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Naturally, I agree with the part "Doesn't allow save - No save". But my players do create situations that begin debates at the table. Ans yes, I can cut them down just saying "this work that way, period". It's that I prefer to end debates with some solid arguments, not just by using GM authority.
Last session there was an invisible enemy. One of the players bumped in her while exiting the room. It was good enough for pinpointing, but another player asked, doesn't he get a disbelieve save (I said no, but as you see, the question came back). And on the next round, invisible enemy jumped away with a reflex roll from aquatic orb. Player expressed his opinion, that before she jumped away, her shape was partially outlined by water, and it was an interaction for purpose of another disbelieve roll.
Disbelieving doesn't make it go away.But being figments, they just remain as "translucent outline" for the viewer who theoretically made a successful disbelieve. Yes, the don't go away for you, but you're able to understand who's who.
The spell says they constantly walk through one another and the real caster.Spells says they inhabit caster's square and mimic his actions. Nothing about crossing each other. Which gives room for some interpretation (for my players).
How many size Medium creatures can inhabit a square? Here we have a spell that invokes 4 more medium creatures to inhabit the same square. The clipping is inferred, and there is no relative basis to see which is the real one as they move over the caster as well as each other.
As there is no disbelieve check the figment issue doesn't come up in the least.
Yeah mirror image isn't a believe or disbelieve issue. The spell doesn't try to convince you this guy is throwing a party with himself. No, it creates things you can see (but aren't really there) to trip you up and make you aim at the wrong thing. It's like a mirage. When you "hit" one of the images it disappears anyway, so there is no disbeliving any of it.
You know all of them aren't real, you just don't know which is the real one.
But being figments, they just remain as "translucent outline" for the viewer who theoretically made a successful disbelieve. Yes, the don't go away for you, but you're able to understand who's who.
Figment: A figment spell creates a false sensation. Those who perceive the figment perceive the same thing, not their own slightly different versions of the figment. It is not a personalized mental impression. Figments cannot make something seem to be something else. A figment that includes audible effects cannot duplicate intelligible speech unless the spell description specifically says it can. If intelligible speech is possible, it must be in a language you can speak. If you try to duplicate a language you cannot speak, the figment produces gibberish. Likewise, you cannot make a visual copy of something unless you know what it looks like (or copy another sense exactly unless you have experienced it).
Saving Throws and Illusions (Disbelief): Creatures encountering an illusion usually do not receive saving throws to recognize it as illusory until they study it carefully or interact with it in some fashion.
A successful saving throw against an illusion reveals it to be false, but a figment or phantasm remains as a translucent outline.
While Mirror Image may be a figment, it doesn't allow a saving throw, so the whole "remains translucent" part doesn't apply as you can't successful save against that which has no saving throw. So you always see the images until they spell runs out, they are destroyed, disspelled, etc.
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It's that I prefer to end debates with some solid arguments, not just by using GM authority.
For this I applaud you. So since you want to go by the rules, ask them to show you (not just verbally mention, but actually physically show you in the book) the rule stating that they get a save to disbelieve invisibility.
If they have any significant level of rules proficiency, they'll go straight to the disbelief rules that I quoted earlier (because they're probably *thinking* there's a rule that says "if you interact with an illusion, you get a save"), but then they'll discover that those rules don't actually grant you a save. Instead, they tell you when you don't get a save against an illusion that you could otherwise disbelieve.
So if they're good with rules, they'll now realize they need to see a save line in the spell in order to get a save, so they'll open up invisibility (for example), and show you that it says "Will negates".
At that point, have them show you where the rules say what that means. What they'll find in the Magic chapter is this:
Usually a harmful spell allows a target to make a saving throw to avoid some or all of the effect. The saving throw entry in a spell description defines which type of saving throw the spell allows and describes how saving throws against the spell work.
Negates: The spell has no effect on a subject that makes a successful saving throw.
Disbelief: A successful save lets the subject ignore the spell's effect.
At that point, they'll need to explain why they think invisibility says "negates" instead of "disbelief". (The correct answer is that the TARGET of invisibility can try to not be turned invisible by attempting a save.)
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So you see, if you and your players actually walk through the rules, step-by-step, and really read them rather than going by memory (which I guarantee they're currently doing), the inescapable conclusion is that the disbelief rules only apply to spells that specifically mention disbelief.
Hope that helps!
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Tell this to your players:
"You pass your disbelief check. You don't believe he summoned a bunch of clones of himself. You think they may be illusions. Whatever they are they move to fast to notice which ones are translucent and make it harder to attack the real one."
"You pass your disbelief check. You don't believe she is invisible. She is still invisible, you just have a mental breakdown and deluded yourself in seeing an imaginary person who probably doesn't look like your enemy, is not in the same place or doing the same thing.
The rest of you see him attacking the air. You're not sure if he is attacking the invisible enemy, gone mad or if there are two enemies now."
"You pass the Spellcraft check. You know he used a spell to make illusory Mirror Images. Everybody else knows that because they have eyes and saw the mirror images that appeared out of thin air."
"You pass the Spellcraft check. You realize he is casting a Invisibility spell about half a second before he turns invisible. Your sudden exclamation of 'He is casting invisibility!' is met with a chorus of 'Thank you, captain Obvious.'"
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Tell this to your players:
"You pass your disbelief check. You don't believe he summoned a bunch of clones of himself. You think they may be illusions. Whatever they are they move to fast to notice which ones are translucent and make it harder to attack the real one."
"You pass your disbelief check. You don't believe she is invisible. She is still invisible, you just have a mental breakdown and deluded yourself in seeing an imaginary person who probably doesn't look like your enemy, is not in the same place or doing the same thing.
The rest of you see him attacking the air. You're not sure if he is attacking the invisible enemy, gone mad or if there are two enemies now."
"You pass the Spellcraft check. You know he used a spell to make illusory Mirror Images. Everybody else knows that because they have eyes and saw the mirror images that appeared out of thin air."
"You pass the Spellcraft check. You realize he is casting a Invisibility spell about half a second before he turns invisible. Your sudden exclamation of 'He is casting invisibility!' is met with a chorus of 'Thank you, captain Obvious.'"
You sir, get a cookie.
Your levity is much appreciated.
Hope that helps!
Oh, I do think it would. I hope, step-by-step explanation that you provided will really settle the debate down.
Thanks all for feedback. I'll redirect my players here. Maybe they'll cast aside their stubbornness.
Well, if you die from charging Ogre, you may say that you rolled a successful disbelieve save.
"You pass the Spellcraft check. You realize he is casting a Invisibility spell about half a second before he turns invisible. Your sudden exclamation of 'He is casting invisibility!' is met with a chorus of 'Thank you, captain Obvious.'"
At the risk of spoiling the comedy, it is useful to identify an Invisibility spell - if you don't have Spellcraft you probably can't tell Invisibility from teleporting away.
Naturally, I agree with the part "Doesn't allow save - No save". But my players do create situations that begin debates at the table. Ans yes, I can cut them down just saying "this work that way, period". It's that I prefer to end debates with some solid arguments, not just by using GM authority.
Last session there was an invisible enemy. One of the players bumped in her while exiting the room. It was good enough for pinpointing, but another player asked, doesn't he get a disbelieve save (I said no, but as you see, the question came back). And on the next round, invisible enemy jumped away with a reflex roll from aquatic orb. Player expressed his opinion, that before she jumped away, her shape was partially outlined by water, and it was an interaction for purpose of another disbelieve roll.
Disbelieving doesn't make it go away.But being figments, they just remain as "translucent outline" for the viewer who theoretically made a successful disbelieve. Yes, the don't go away for you, but you're able to understand who's who.
The spell says they constantly walk through one another and the real caster.Spells says they inhabit caster's square and mimic his actions. Nothing about crossing each other. Which gives room for some interpretation (for my players).
Don't forget that the spell level rating for the spell takes into account whether it allows saves and such. So, if you modify these spells to allow saves, then you should potentially lower the spell's level as well. If Mirror Image allows a save, then I would also argue it should be a 0th level cantrip.
You guys are trying to argue this from a "how magic works in a make believe world" instead of from a rules/game design perspective, which carries far more weight....
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When hit by an aqueous orb, it doesn't become visible even if you see a glimpse of its outline, but it does let the players know which square it is (or was) in. This allows them to attack that square, but they still have a 50% miss chance because it's still invisible. If it moved out of that square before it was attacked, then they will automatically miss.
BTW, the image on a TV screen is an illusion. I know it's an illusion, I know that tiny people aren't acting out a play in a box in my house. Knowing that the image is an illusion in no way prevents that illusion from being perceivable, from working.
Invisible creatures are perfectly transparent. Knowing that they are perfectly transparent doesn't make them not transparent!
Mirror image creates illusionary copies, but is not trying to fool you into believing that there really are six wizards, only that you can't tell which of the six is real. In this case you can interact with an image, and if you do (by hitting it!) then that image disappears. Good for you!
Conceptually, illusions only allow 'will disbelief' saves if the illusion is designed to fool you that the image is not an image but in fact real. But invisibility and mirror image are happy to let you know that what you see is not real, because they don't need you to believe in the reality of the image in order for the image to exist.