Goblin Squad Member
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Unless feuds are mutual, they will just be griefing.
Nah. The game deliberately allows for non-consensual PvP, that isn't griefing. It's limited by various counters (not coin).
If a company declares feud on another company, it can draw the members of the second company into PvP. It costs the first company Influence.
If a settlement declares war on another settlement, it draws all members of the second settlement into PvP. It costs the first settlement DI (Development Index Points).
If a character attacks another character out of the blue, his victim is drawn into PvP. It costs the attacking character Reputation. Low enough Repution blocks the attacker from entering guarded towns and getting training. It also make that attacker a cheaper target for anyone who chooses to attack him out of the blue. Karma.
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Goblin Squad Member
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A settlement out to destroy another settlement and take its resources is not griefing, it is the game being played.I'm pretty sure Feuds are company to company, and don't impact settlements directly.
Ah, I was thinking settlement warfare. But even then, I assume a campaign would start by dismantling a settlements support structures, for example targeting its "gatherers company", disrupting activities, wreaking morale. I doubt a company on the receiving end would "volunteer" to that if mutual agreement is necessary...
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Goblin Squad Member
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Ah, I was thinking settlement warfare. But even then, I assume a campaign would start by dismantling a settlements support structures, for example targeting its "gatherers company", disrupting activities, wreaking morale. I doubt a company on the receiving end would "volunteer" to that if mutual agreement is necessary...
Correctish. Settlement warfare starts by taking your opponent's POI and building a siege engine on it (If they weren't using it) or turning it from a resource production engine into a siege engine (If they were using it) that then begins inflicting settlement damage. No permission needed, and lots of time for the defending settlement to make their displeasure known if they are capable of it.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Ah, I was thinking settlement warfare. But even then, I assume a campaign would start by dismantling a settlements support structures, for example targeting its "gatherers company", disrupting activities, wreaking morale. I doubt a company on the receiving end would "volunteer" to that if mutual agreement is necessary...Correctish. Settlement warfare starts by taking your opponent's POI and building a siege engine on it (If they weren't using it) or turning it from a resource production engine into a siege engine (If they were using it) that then begins inflicting settlement damage. No permission needed, and lots of time for the defending settlement to make their displeasure known if they are capable of it.
I suppose that's one way to start, but I think in most campaigns, there will have been a lot of other objectives before that.
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Goblin Squad Member
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How is War of Towers not "a feud or dueling system or just SOMETHING where you can engage eachother in combat without penalties"?
Andius, sometimes I think you stopped playing the game around Alpha 7 and haven't been paying attention to what's actually in the game today.
Not meaning to nitpick, but if I understand what's happening, then right now WoT is not "a feud or dueling system or just SOMETHING where you can engage eachother in combat without penalties," because the PVP window never opens. It announces that it will open in -X hours and -Y minutes, but it doesn't open. Can we kill each other without reputation penalties during that negative time?
Edit: If I'm not mistaken, then WoT was that system for a couple of days, until every tower was captured, but it isn't any more.
If I've misunderstood the system, it could be that the tower capture part of the PVP window is broken, but the "killing each other without reputation loss" part of the PVP window still works. Is that the case? If so, how can I tell when reputation is on the line, and when it's suspended?
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Goblin Squad Member
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Can we kill each other without reputation penalties during that negative time?No. Decius and I verified this.
Thank you.
That being the case, I believe Andius has a point. Our opportunity to fight without reputation penalties lasted only as long as it took for all the Towers to be captured.
Maybe Alpha 11 will feature the return of reputation-neutral PVP, with recurring PVP windows.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Our opportunity to fight without reputation penalties lasted only as long as it took for all the Towers to be captured.
Very minor quibble...
Our opportunity to fight other Characters during the War of Towers was predicated on those other Characters being in the same unclaimed Tower Hex. That's practically consensual PvP.
Right now, we can engage in consensual PvP without Reputation Loss. All you have to do is attack yourself once to get the Aggressor Flag, then attack any Character with a white name to get the Attacker Flag. If your opponent does the same (which would require a 3rd party with a white name to be present), then you and your opponent can fight without either of you losing Reputation.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Our opportunity to fight without reputation penalties lasted only as long as it took for all the Towers to be captured.Very minor quibble...
Our opportunity to fight other Characters during the War of Towers was predicated on those other Characters being in the same unclaimed Tower Hex. That's practically consensual PvP.
Right now, we can engage in consensual PvP without Reputation Loss. All you have to do is attack yourself once to get the Aggressor Flag, then attack any Character with a white name to get the Attacker Flag. If your opponent does the same (which would require a 3rd party with a white name to be present), then you and your opponent can fight without either of you losing Reputation.
While that method is available, Ryan specifically called out the WoT as the method.
Anyway, enough quibbling. I'm just going to keep hoping that Tower PVP windows start opening again in Alpha 11.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Our opportunity to fight without reputation penalties lasted only as long as it took for all the Towers to be captured.Very minor quibble...
Our opportunity to fight other Characters during the War of Towers was predicated on those other Characters being in the same unclaimed Tower Hex. That's practically consensual PvP.
Right now, we can engage in consensual PvP without Reputation Loss. All you have to do is attack yourself once to get the Aggressor Flag, then attack any Character with a white name to get the Attacker Flag. If your opponent does the same (which would require a 3rd party with a white name to be present), then you and your opponent can fight without either of you losing Reputation.
While that method is available, Ryan specifically called out the WoT as the method.
Andius apparently hadn't been paying much attention since WoT started, Ryan called him out for not noticing a system that only worked for a couple of days. I really don't want to be in the middle of their discussion anymore, and I regret sticking my nose in.
I'm just going to keep hoping that Tower PVP windows start opening again in Alpha 11.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Our opportunity to fight without reputation penalties lasted only as long as it took for all the Towers to be captured.Very minor quibble...
Our opportunity to fight other Characters during the War of Towers was predicated on those other Characters being in the same unclaimed Tower Hex. That's practically consensual PvP.
Right now, we can engage in consensual PvP without Reputation Loss. All you have to do is attack yourself once to get the Aggressor Flag, then attack any Character with a white name to get the Attacker Flag. If your opponent does the same (which would require a 3rd party with a white name to be present), then you and your opponent can fight without either of you losing Reputation.
So there is dueling, you just have to cut yourself like Kal Drogo first. We should give that ritual a name!
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Goblin Squad Member
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One aspect of the game I hope they get right, before EE, is the combat animations for the weapons / attacks they currently have.
There is nothing less visually appealing as standing still and seeing only 1/3 of your attacks actually happen. I have actually, recently, had a combat engagement take place where none of my attacks were visible.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Our opportunity to fight without reputation penalties lasted only as long as it took for all the Towers to be captured.There are still unclaimed towers on the map. I've just run a character through three of them.
Really? Neat. I haven't seen an unclaimed one in a while. I thought they'd all been snatched up.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Our opportunity to fight without reputation penalties lasted only as long as it took for all the Towers to be captured.There are still unclaimed towers on the map. I've just run a character through three of them.
That's the point. According to what I've heard they aren't so much being fought over as claimed by the first person to reach them, and few people even care enough to do that. How is that PvP?
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Goblin Squad Member
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You know that Stationary ranged attacks are MMO standard, right?
Was responding to other stuff when this was originally posted but I just couldn't let it stand. Please name for me the MMO's you have played where 100% of ranged attacks are stationary.
The MMO standard is to have some channeled effects and some action timer effects which are generally stationary. But almost all of those MMOs also contain instant effects which can be done on the run. The ratio of instants to stationaries can determine the nature of an entire class, for instance I remember one of the things that made me choose the scoundrel on TOR was that it was such an instant heavy class.
To put it bluntly, leaving all ranged attacks stationary including those of wands and shortbows longterm would be a monumentally idiotic design decision, and I can't think of a single successful title you can point to and say "But they did it that way!"
You're just blindly covering for every decision GW makes as usual.
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Goblin Squad Member
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That's the point. According to what I've heard they aren't so much being fought over as claimed by the first person to reach them, and few people even care enough to do that. How is that PvP?
It's funny, even deliberately trying to provoke our most notorious enemies, we found little worthwhile PvP. If only you'd been playing at the time...
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Goblin Squad Member
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That's the point. According to what I've heard they aren't so much being fought over as claimed by the first person to reach them, and few people even care enough to do that. How is that PvP?It's funny, even deliberately trying to provoke our most notorious enemies, we found little worthwhile PvP. If only you'd been playing at the time...
There is no worth while PVP until there is player looting.
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Goblin Squad Member
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There is no worth while PVP until there is player looting.That's the point. According to what I've heard they aren't so much being fought over as claimed by the first person to reach them, and few people even care enough to do that. How is that PvP?It's funny, even deliberately trying to provoke our most notorious enemies, we found little worthwhile PvP. If only you'd been playing at the time...
Or just gear loss. When TEO and TSV members running around in the gear they spent hours creating or got handed by Bonny die to Aragonians in mob dropped gear and lose most of it, then the game will really have started for me.
I'd like the chance for some deuling with allies before then but at the state its in this game isn't even worth testing.
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Goblin Squad Member
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That's the point. According to what I've heard they aren't so much being fought over as claimed by the first person to reach them, and few people even care enough to do that. How is that PvP?
If you take them with an unaffiliated company, then they're locked in 24/7 PvP aren't they?
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Goblin Squad Member
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I hope people leave them unclaimed while the pvp window is broken so that we can have free-for-all hexes.
I believe that when the timers go into the negative, even though the towers can not be captured the hex is still FFA PvP. It has been a few days since I've been in game, so correct me if I'm wrong.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I hope people leave them unclaimed while the pvp window is broken so that we can have free-for-all hexes.I believe that when the timers go into the negative, even though the towers can not be captured the hex is still FFA PvP. It has been a few days since I've been in game, so correct me if I'm wrong.
Hmm I just assumed the capturing tower mechanic deactivated the rep loss. Good suggestion, I'll have to test it out.
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Goblin Squad Member
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...correct me if I'm wrong.
Sorry, been checked:
Can we kill each other without reputation penalties during that negative time?No. Decius and I verified this.
We really need Alpha 11, with its extensive patch notes :-).
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Goblin Squad Member
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Last night we PvPed for two hours straight in a tower hex. No one actually came to fight, but TEO had a blast, learned a great deal about the combat system too.
@Jazz, Bonnie hasn't given anything away since Alpha 6 or 7, which the servers have been wiped since then. The only direct things I have seen the devs put into the game since 8, was the Ink at TK, but you still had to pay for it. She did indeed give out gear to everyone, nice T2/T3 gear, to ANYONE that asked for it.
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Goblin Squad Member
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There will be no real PvP until there is player looting, encumbrance that matters, and limited threading based on item tier.
Until then a fully decked out character in heavy armor and evey stitch of gear is t2 or t3, can fight off three noobs in t1 gear; lose once and win three times and declare victory. However, many of us know from EvE, that is not necessarily true.
Win conditions are not always measured by the raw numbers of wins vs. losses. Value of items lost / destroyed is a more accurate indicator.
Goblinworks Executive Founder
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There will be no real PvP until there is player looting, encumbrance that matters, and limited threading based on item tier.
Until then a fully decked out character in heavy armor and evey stitch of gear is t2 or t3, can fight off three noobs in t1 gear; lose once and win three times and declare victory. However, many of us know from EvE, that is not necessarily true.
Win conditions are not always measured by the raw numbers of wins vs. losses. Value of items lost / destroyed is a more accurate indicator.
I'm certain that T3 gear is not possible within the expected time of alpha. T2 gear is being held up for a lack of recipes.
Maybe you meant that one person in +2 weapon and armor takes three Aragonians, in the gear that Aragon makes, to chase off.
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Goblin Squad Member
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There will be no real PvP until there is player looting, encumbrance that matters, and limited threading based on item tier.
Until then a fully decked out character in heavy armor and evey stitch of gear is t2 or t3, can fight off three noobs in t1 gear; lose once and win three times and declare victory. However, many of us know from EvE, that is not necessarily true.
Win conditions are not always measured by the raw numbers of wins vs. losses. Value of items lost / destroyed is a more accurate indicator.
I'm certain that T3 gear is not possible within the expected time of alpha. T2 gear is being held up for a lack of recipes.
Maybe you meant that one person in +2 weapon and armor takes three Aragonians, in the gear that Aragon makes, to chase off.
It is not an issue of what we made, two of the three were using the bow that is given and the club that is what was tarted with. The point is, when are the PVP elements that we are waiting to complete the system will be included?
Player Looting
Encumbrance Full Implementation
Threading
These are essential aspects of the PVP system, that have been written and spoken about for years in the Dev Blogs.
If you did not have the protection against loss, you would have disengaged after your first or second loss. Your equipment would have been looted.
The case that I have made for well over a year was proven. Numbers trumps skilled feats and gear. Naked noobs only have to win once, maybe twice.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Zing!Maybe you meant that one person in +2 weapon and armor takes three Aragonians, in the gear that Aragon makes, to chase off.
There was no zing, he lost more than he won and against naked noobs for many of the fights.
+2 weapon and +2 armor and the feats to utilize them versus +0 weapons and no armor on one of my toons, proved that Goonswarm zerg tactics will work in PFO.
Goblin Works has always tried to have it both ways. You can not have "there is not a steep power curve" and "numbers won't count as much as in other games".
We learned that numbers will matter more, once the gear threading limits and gear loss of PVP is fully implemented.
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Goblin Squad Member
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It's sobering when those who espouse good community try to instigate drama and conflict, while those promoting banditry remain courteous and reasoned.
It may not have been obvious to you, but it was extremely obvious to some that this statement from Bluddwolf was a direct, and extremely dishonest, attack on Decius.
Until then a fully decked out character in heavy armor and evey stitch of gear is t2 or t3, can fight off three noobs in t1 gear; lose once and win three times and declare victory.
Doesn't that strike you as just a little bit too specific to be "just a general example"? Or are you inclined to give Bluddwolf the benefit of the doubt that his "non-specific example" just happened to directly correlate to the events he experienced fighting against Decius for control of some Towers?
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Goblin Squad Member
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Until then a fully decked out character in heavy armor and evey stitch of gear is t2 or t3, can fight off three noobs in t1 gear; lose once and win three times and declare victory.Doesn't that strike you as just a little bit too specific to be "just a general example"? Or are you inclined to give Bluddwolf the benefit of the doubt that his "non-specific example" just happened to directly correlate to the events he experienced fighting against Decius for control of some Towers?
To any of us who don't know the story, it was completely generic until the response made it otherwise. A person can needle another in a mostly private fashion, even in a public posting. It only becomes a thing when somebody makes it obvious that there was needling going on.
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Goblin Squad Member
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It is an example that did not occur in a vacuum. It was not in anyway a corner case either, and is very likely to be very common practice.
For all that times that EvE is sited as an exemplar that PFO is trying to emulate, when it suits Goblin Works purpose, there are an equal number of similarities that will exist that are just the realities of a sandbox MMO with PVP at its core.
The argument that I was making in my example, based on an actual event (without naming), was that:
1. PVP is not fully implemented at its very basic level, the Risk vs. Reward level.
2. That numbers at the very least is an equalizing factor vs. more experience and better gear.
So to remain on point with the OP, I'm hopeful that full implementation of basic PVP finds its way in as MVP of Early Enrollment.