Simple question, what is stronger? To me having a pet that is almost as good as a hunters companion is much better than the judgment ability. The pet is active all the time, provides constant reliable DPR, helps you get your teamwork feat going even when you are solo and can sometime serve as a mount...
Opinions?
Don't underestimate judgement. Without Judgements an Inquisitor's attack bonus and damage bonus cannot compete with a full melee based character. Without getting into too much specifics I participated in a discussion about what class made the best archer.
The DPR calculations (along with some other considerations) showed that Inquisitors using judgements and bane would effectively outdamage anybody else, where I had been convinced that Ranger was the best archer (once Instant Enemey came online). The bonus to hit and damage from multiple judgements is really required for the Inquisitors attacks to stay relevant.
The question is really more about do you want an animal companion to take the show in terms of damage or do you want your character to still be the main damage dealer. With the Sacred Huntmaster your animal companion is going to fill the damage role more than your character can.
Also, keep in mind that with proper use of domains you can get an animal companion without needing to go Sacred Huntmaster. The animal domain, or even better more specifically the Feather subdomain can do a lot for an Inquisitor when combined with Boon Companion.
But the small DPR you lose from judgment, wouldnt you get it back from the pet? Also the number of time per day you can use judgment seems really limited. I you are only doing a small amount of fights in a day it might be fine, but in a dungeon, what do you do?
The animal will be much more stronger with sacred huntsmaster than with the domain. It gets your teamwork feats and bonuses from animal focus. With him your are almost always garanteed to be flanking your target with a +4 attack bonus from outflank and +1d6 dmg bonus from precise strike. You also get some bonus per day from animal focus.
At lvl 14, when your BAB reach 14 you will be able to do some really nice stuff with coodinated charge and distracting charge. You start by buffing youself and share this buff with your pet. Then you move so that both you and your pet will be able to charge the same target. Your pet pounce enabling you to get a free charge. That attack will be +2 from charge, +2 because your pet charged the target, +4 because you are flanking the target (thanks to pack flanking) and +1d6 dmg. All that in the 1st round of combat.
Now Imagine you have another melee character in your group. That melee charge a target enabling you to get another free charge. Then your pet gets a free pounce because you charged, with all the crazy bonuses on all of his 5 attacks...
Thormind wrote: But the small DPR you lose from judgment, wouldnt you get it back from the pet? Also the number of time per day you can use judgment seems really limited. I you are only doing a small amount of fights in a day it might be fine, but in a dungeon, what do you do? As an Inquisitor who undertook the hardships of levelling from 1 to where I am now, it doesn't hurt you that much. At my current level, I can use my Judgment 4/day, but rarely need it more than twice. In a dungeon, you don't activate your Judgment when you don't need it... In my party, I'm not the tank or primary DPS. It's their job to be ready for every combat. I just help clean up... Judgment's great for the times you need to up the ante, though.
Quote: At lvl 14, when your BAB reach 14 ... What class are we talking about, again? Inquisitor is 3/4 BAB as well as the Hunter - at level 14, your BAB is +10.
Both options are great - built properly the animal companion can be amazingly strong, same as the judgments.
Sindakka wrote: What class are we talking about, again? Inquisitor is 3/4 BAB as well as the Hunter - at level 14, your BAB is +10. Yeah sorry, was a typo, i meant BAB 10, the prereq for the feat.
Companion is worth the loss of judgement. The companion is there all the time, the judgement isn't. Thanks to the archetype, the companion shares all of your teamwork feats, so thanks to Pack Flanking and Outflank, you and your companion will have an always on +4 to hit in melee to make up for the loss of accuracy from no judgement.
I like companions, mostly because you can use them to dual-focus your character.
Wanna play support while your companion deals damage? You can focus on social skills and spells while your damage focused companion brings the pain. Wanna be a damage dealer but still have a way to scout and help your allies? Pick a small companion and have him do aid other and other cool things.
Judgment is useful, but two "characters" are always better than one.
Imbicatus wrote: Companion is worth the loss of judgement. The companion is there all the time, the judgement isn't. Thanks to the archetype, the companion shares all of your teamwork feats, so thanks to Pack Flanking and Outflank, you and your companion will have an always on +4 to hit in melee to make up for the loss of accuracy from no judgement. This all day long. Plus you have more action economy not less.
And it frees up your swift actions. Not that it's a huge boost, but I feel that inquisitors have lots of useful swift actions, so having one less is kinda nice. Even if "person full power" is lower, you reach that full power sooner and have your animal companion the entire time, which is buffed with your animal focus all the time, making it better than from the animal domain.
Chess Pwn wrote: And it frees up your swift actions. Not that it's a huge boost, but I feel that inquisitors have lots of useful swift actions, so having one less is kinda nice. Even if "person full power" is lower, you reach that full power sooner and have your animal companion the entire time, which is buffed with your animal focus all the time, making it better than from the animal domain. Exactly. And at higher lvl, when you get coordinated charge you can buff youself and your pet and attack (from the free charge)with bane up in the same round. Thats action economy...
It should be noted that it only frees up your swift action for the first round of combat, as you aren't required to be in combat to activate Animal Focus. On that subject though, you are likely to find more use out of Animal focus than the "BABandaid" that is Judgement
Judgement is far more than a "BAB Bandaid" its also a bonus on AC or saves if you need it. Sacred Huntsmaster is a viable choice, but vanilla inquisitor or Sanctified Slayer aren't bad, either. I'm glad that the inquisitor finally got some adequate archetypes that don't trade out Bane for some questionable stuff.
I think people miss how well Animal Focus compares to Judgement *by itself*, at least on paper.
At level 4:
Judgement 2/day vs Animal Focus 4 minutes/day
+1 to hit and damage (+2 Str) vs +1 to hit -or- +2 damage.
+1 AC, Ref, Init (+2 Dex) vs +1 AC
Evasion, Darkvision, Scent -or- Skill Bonuses, etc
vs. DR, Fast Healing, -or saves, etc.
At level 8:
Judgement 3/Day vs Animal Focus 8 Min/day
+2 Hit and Damage (+4 Str) vs +2 Hit -or- +3 damage.
etc.
Animal Focus starts lagging after 8th, since it doesn't scale much better until 15th, but it doubles at 17th. And a lot of the bonuses are enhancements, so you can't always pick those if you're fully decked out. But Evasion, Darkvision, Skill Bonuses, many more uses per day are better for a lot of inquisitor builds.
Plus you get an AC.
Chess Pwn wrote: And it frees up your swift actions. Not that it's a huge boost, but I feel that inquisitors have lots of useful swift actions, so having one less is kinda nice. Even if "person full power" is lower, you reach that full power sooner and have your animal companion the entire time, which is buffed with your animal focus all the time, making it better than from the animal domain. actually i'm gonna go over to the rules section and faq this, because till now i believed that animal focus was only for the inquisitor himself, not for the pet as well.
the ability is written as such:
Quote: Animal Focus (Su)
At 4th level, a sacred huntsmaster can take on the aspects of an animal as a swift action. This ability works as the hunter's animal focus class feature, with her inquisitor level serving as her hunter level.
This ability replaces later iterations of the judgment ability.
nowhere it is implied that you can also grant the animal focus to your AC. I run with it as such till now.
for referance, hunter Animal focus is written as such:
Quote: At 1st level, a hunter can take on the aspect of an animal as a swift action. She must select one type of animal to emulate, gaining a bonus or special ability based on the type of animal emulated and her hunter level. The hunter can use this ability for a number of minutes per day equal to her level. This duration does not need to be consecutive, but must be spent in 1-minute increments. The hunter can emulate only one animal at a time.
The hunter can also apply one of these aspects to her animal companion. Unlike with the hunter herself, there is no duration on the animal aspect applied to her animal companion. An aspect applied in this way does not count against the hunter's minutes of duration per day—it remains in effect until the hunter changes it. The companion's aspect can be the same aspect the ranger has taken on or a different one. The hunter can select or change the animal foci on both herself and her animal companion as part of the same swift action.
as a two part ability that it's second part works distinctivly different than it's first.
but then, after your comment i saw that:
Quote: Second Animal Focus (Ex)
At 17th level, whenever a sacred huntsmaster uses her animal focus ability, she selects two different animal aspects for herself instead of one, and can assign two aspects to her companion instead of one. As with the companion's previous aspect, the second one does not count against the minutes per day a sacred huntsmaster can take on an aspect. If her animal companion is dead and the sacred huntsmaster has applied that aspect to herself, that aspect counts toward her maximum of two aspects at once. The sacred huntsmaster can still only apply one of her dead companion's to herself, not both.
which suggest that the first animal focus ability does indeed grant animal focus to your AC too...
Judgement grants a sacred bonus which is pretty rare, while animal focus gives you an enhancement bonus, so it won't stack with stat boosters.
shroudb wrote: Chess Pwn wrote: And it frees up your swift actions. Not that it's a huge boost, but I feel that inquisitors have lots of useful swift actions, so having one less is kinda nice. Even if "person full power" is lower, you reach that full power sooner and have your animal companion the entire time, which is buffed with your animal focus all the time, making it better than from the animal domain. actually i'm gonna go over to the rules section and faq this, because till now i believed that animal focus was only for the inquisitor himself, not for the pet as well.
the ability is written as such:
Quote: Animal Focus (Su)
At 4th level, a sacred huntsmaster can take on the aspects of an animal as a swift action. This ability works as the hunter's animal focus class feature, with her inquisitor level serving as her hunter level.
This ability replaces later iterations of the judgment ability.
nowhere it is implied that you can also grant the animal focus to your AC. I run with it as such till now.
for referance, hunter Animal focus is written as such:
Quote: At 1st level, a hunter can take on the aspect of an animal as a swift action. She must select one type of animal to emulate, gaining a bonus or special ability based on the type of animal emulated and her hunter level. The hunter can use this ability for a number of minutes per day equal to her level. This duration does not need to be consecutive, but must be spent in 1-minute increments. The hunter can emulate only one animal at a time.
The hunter can also apply one of these aspects to her animal companion. Unlike with the hunter herself, there is no duration on the animal aspect applied to her animal companion. An aspect applied in this way does not count against the hunter's minutes of duration per day—it remains in effect until the hunter changes it. The companion's aspect can be the same aspect the ranger has taken on or a different one. The hunter can select or change the animal foci on both herself
... Animal focus specifically states it functions as the hunter's animal focus. The ability to give your companion the animal focus bonus is included in the Hunter Animal Focus class feature, it's not a separate feature. Therefore the Sacred Huntmaster can grant the focus to their companion.
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shroudb wrote:
the ability is written as such:
Animal Focus (Su)
At 4th level, a sacred huntsmaster can take on the aspects of an animal as a swift action. This ability works as the hunter's animal focus class feature, with her inquisitor level serving as her hunter level.
This ability replaces later iterations of the judgment ability.
nowhere it is implied that you can also grant the animal focus to your AC. I run with it as such till now.
The text says it works like the hunter ability. If it wouldnt include the AC it would be worded " This ability works as the hunter's animal focus class feature, except it only affects the inquisitor..."
As you said the upgrade you get later on include your AC, which suggest a misprint. The book is poorly edited, there is so many things that make it feels like it did not get enough review before final print.
For example the Devine Hunter archetype for the hunter state that he does not gain a second companion if he selects the animal domain. The same thing is not writen for the Sacred Huntsmaster. So by RAW he can get 2 AC and with boon companion they would both be at his own lvl. It is probably not the RAI...
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Jadeite wrote: Judgement grants a sacred bonus which is pretty rare, while animal focus gives you an enhancement bonus, so it won't stack with stat boosters. Darkvision, Perception, Swim/jump/climb, Evasion, Stealth, +atk and def for attacks of opportunity, Speed, Scent. You can still use all those buffs. Plus your gear might not boost dx/con and str. You might need dex only once in a wile when you shoot a bow. You might need con to help your fort saves vs a spider... The ability is just as flexible as judgment but may be used way more often.
I feel for most of your career it will be useful. A + to a stat your belt isn't in, or one of the other situational ones when you need. I think the really big perk is boosting your animal companion "for free" you boost str, then if you get a belt of str for him, switch it to con. I feel it's really about boosting your companion and then giving yourself something based on a situation.
What a well-timed discussion this is... Thank you all for making these comparisons. I am looking very closely at Sacred Huntsmaster and trying to figure out if it will fit for my character.
This had been just great for giving me more ways to think about this option.
Hmm
Hmm wrote: What a well-timed discussion this is... Thank you all for making these comparisons. I am looking very closely at Sacred Huntsmaster and trying to figure out if it will fit for my character.
This had been just great for giving me more ways to think about this option.
Hmm
I am currently building a lvl 15 half orc sacred huntsmaster just to find out exactly how good he can be. Almost done and so far he seems really powerful. Just with divine power and bane, in one round is dmg can be higher than 300. Thats without counting pet dmg. His pet will be a velociraptor.
On top of nice dmg he has a lot he can do when not fighting. Hes specially good at intimidating, sensing motive and identifying monsters with the knowledge skill.
Will post finished results when i am done.
What's really interesting with a sacred huntmaster, is taking the Crocodile domain if you are allowed to take druid domains. You have your companion, a familiar, a great option for making a grapple/trip combo and sneak attack.
Imbicatus wrote: What's really interesting with a sacred huntmaster, is taking the Crocodile domain if you are allowed to take druid domains. You have your companion, a familiar, a great option for making a grapple/trip combo and sneak attack. I cant find this Crocodile domain, can you elaborate?
It's one of the cool druid animal domains. Here you go: Crocodile Domain.
Hmm
Monkey Domain Forever!
That said, crocodile is handy because the Dwarf Caiman is Small, so it's got reach and can flank.
Don't forget the Valet archetype so it's got all of your Teamwork Feats too.
Also, it's not PFS legal to have two combat pets, if that's a consideration.
It's not PFS legal for non-druids to take animal and terrain domains, either. Still awesome for home games.
Ok here we go for a lvl 15 Half Orc Inquisitor and his velociraptor pet. They have less than 100k of gear, less than what you would usually have at that lvl. Base attack bonus and damage include outflank and precise strike since they will be flanking almost all the time. The bonus from distracting charge is not included.:
Him:
24Str, 18Dex, 12Con, 13Int, 20Wis, 8Cha
AC 24, Touch 16, Flat Foot 20
Fort 12, Ref 11, Will 16
Feats: Thoughness, combat expertise, pack flanking, precise strike, outflank, power attack, improved critical, improved spell sharing, bleeding critical, distracting charge, extended bane, coordinated charge.
Atk bonus: Base 24/19/14 (-3 if power attack)
Bonus with devine power 29/29/24/19 (-3 if power attack)
Bonus with devine power and bane: 31/31/26/21 (-3 if power attack)
Base dmg 2d4+13+1d6, with power attack 2d4+22+1d6
Dmg with divine power and power attack 2d4+27+1d6
Dmg with divine power, bane and power attack: 2d4+27+4d6+1d6
Max DPR (no critical): 260. add 1 critical: 283
His Pet (with 6str from animal focus):
28Str, 20Dex, 19Con, 3Int, 12Wis, 14Cha
AC 32, Touch 15, Flat Foot 27
Fort 12, Ref 16, Will 7
Feats: Light armor prof, Improved Natural attack (Talons), Thoughness, Imp Natural attack (claws), power attack, iron will
Atk bonus: Base 24 + 1 Talon atk at 19 (-3 if power attack)
Bonus with devine power 29/24 (-3 if power attack)
Base dmg: 2x(3d6+9)Talons,1x(2d6+9)Bite,2x(2d6+9)Claws,1x(3d6+9)Talon
Dmg with Pwr Atk: 2x(3d6+14)+1x(2d6+14)+2x(2d6+14)+1x(2d6+14)
Dmg with divine pwr+power atk 2x(3d6+19)+1x(2d6+19)+2x(2d6+19)+1x(3d6+19)
Max DPR (no critical): 204
Both of the together we are talking 400+ DPR(max). Thats a lot! And hes not a one trick pony, outside combat he also bring a lot to the table...
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Thormind wrote: Ok here we go for a lvl 15 Half Orc Inquisitor and his velociraptor pet. They have less than 100k of gear, less than what you would usually have at that lvl. Base attack bonus and damage include outflank and precise strike since they will be flanking almost all the time. The bonus from distracting charge is not included.:
Him:
24Str, 18Dex, 12Con, 13Int, 20Wis, 8Cha
AC 24, Touch 16, Flat Foot 20
Fort 12, Ref 11, Will 16
Feats: Thoughness, combat expertise, pack flanking, precise strike, outflank, power attack, improved critical, improved spell sharing, bleeding critical, distracting charge, extended bane, coordinated charge.
Atk bonus: Base 24/19/14 (-3 if power attack)
Bonus with devine power 29/29/24/19 (-3 if power attack)
Bonus with devine power and bane: 31/31/26/21 (-3 if power attack)
Base dmg 2d4+13+1d6, with power attack 2d4+22+1d6
Dmg with divine power and power attack 2d4+27+1d6
Dmg with divine power, bane and power attack: 2d4+27+4d6+1d6
Max DPR (no critical): 260. add 1 critical: 283
His Pet (with 6str from animal focus):
28Str, 20Dex, 19Con, 3Int, 12Wis, 14Cha
AC 32, Touch 15, Flat Foot 27
Fort 12, Ref 16, Will 7
Feats: Light armor prof, Improved Natural attack (Talons), Thoughness, Imp Natural attack (claws), power attack, iron will
Atk bonus: Base 24 + 1 Talon atk at 19 (-3 if power attack)
Bonus with devine power 29/24 (-3 if power attack)
Base dmg: 2x(3d6+9)Talons,1x(2d6+9)Bite,2x(2d6+9)Claws,1x(3d6+9)Talon
Dmg with Pwr Atk: 2x(3d6+14)+1x(2d6+14)+2x(2d6+14)+1x(2d6+14)
Dmg with divine pwr+power atk 2x(3d6+19)+1x(2d6+19)+2x(2d6+19)+1x(3d6+19)
Max DPR (no critical): 204
Both of the together we are talking 400+ DPR(max). Thats a lot! And hes not a one trick pony, outside combat he also bring a lot to the table...
you! WHY NO PAIRED OPPORTUNIST??
you have 4 attacks. you have outflank that gives your pet an attack of opportunity whenever you crit.
your pet has 6 attacks. your pet has opportunist that grants you an AoO whenver it crits.
With paired opportunist, not only you have a stacking +4attack on those AoO. but with outflank it becomes:
whenver you crit your pet AND YOU get an AoO
whenver your pet crits, you AND YOUR pet get an AoO.
that comes out as a minimum of 1 attack from each each turn for free, with a +4 on it's attack.
(also do you have menacing on your weapon OR the aomf for the pet? that should give you a near permanent +2 to attacks for both you and your pet for a +1modifier on ONE of the two weapons)
Judgements are powerful but without having three different ones at once the animal is vastly better. Having a flanker makes others in melee slightly better, its more attacks, and is indirectly more health as every hit it takes is one that a PC didn't have to take. Even one hit from the animal is statistically better than a powered up judgement till near mid levels.
If you lost bane and judgements I MIGHT sing a different tune but even then its still pretty solid to take animal just to ease the burden of early levels. Now if your playing a dwarf I'd say go with judgement because the power of that favored class bonus combine with judgement surge over 20 levels is pretty substantial, especially with archery or two weapon fighting where you can stack even more attacks to get those bonuses on.
shroudb wrote:
you! WHY NO PAIRED OPPORTUNIST??
you have 4 attacks. you have outflank that gives your pet an attack of opportunity whenever you crit.
your pet has 6 attacks. your pet has opportunist that grants you an AoO...
I do have a limit on the number of feat i can take and I do not have combat relex. I chose to go for the full flanking route and that cost a lot of feat. Outflank gives a +4 bonus when flanking btw... I think with my 3/4 BAB and with my pet low str the +4 bonus to hit makes a big difference.
He's not saying drop Outflank, but you've got some other feats there that aren't vital.
Compare Bleeding critical:
Your critical hits does 2d6 bleed.
To:
Your critical hits give you an extra attack at +4 to hit (2d4+22+d6.) That's more than 4 rounds of bleed.
Plus your pet has 6 possible crits that will each grant an extra Talon attack 5% of the time (Bleeding critical doesn't help your pet at all.)
Plus the AoOs you were already getting from Outflank are +4 to hit.
I'd get Paired Opportunists before Bleeding Critical, Extended Bane, and probably Improved Spell Sharing.
I'd also bake Greater Magic Fang +3 into your ACs calculations.
what the guy above me said^^
you should get BOTH outflank and paired opportunist.
paired opportunist with a 15-20 critical weapon, and 4 attacks /round will probably result in at least 1 extra attack from you each round.
and the 6 attacks of your pet have a major chance of proccing an additional attack for it too.
that and you should REALLY, like REALLY look at menacing.
outflank basically becomes a +6 modifier for both you and your pet.
i would easily drop bleeding critical and extended bane in a heartbeat for combat reflexes and paired opportunist.
BUT
even if you want to keep one of them, even without combat reflexes, you still get 1 attack without combat reflexes. and that single attack will do way more than bleeding critical ever dreamed about.
i would also consider leaving precise strike as the open teamwork feat. really, 1d6 damage at this point isn't that great, compared to p.e. shake it off, or lookout, and etc things.
at lvl15, battles usually last only like 2-3rounds, having you and your pet receive a full round action instead of a single standard in the surprise round basically adds half a round of pain, and having +1-+4 to all saving throws and the same for your pet is also quite good.
shroudb wrote: what the guy above me said^^
you should get BOTH outflank and paired opportunist.
paired opportunist with a 15-20 critical weapon, and 4 attacks /round will probably result in at least 1 extra attack from you each round.
and the 6 attacks of your pet have a major chance of proccing an additional attack for it too.
that and you should REALLY, like REALLY look at menacing.
outflank basically becomes a +6 modifier for both you and your pet.
i would easily drop bleeding critical and extended bane in a heartbeat for combat reflexes and paired opportunist.
BUT
even if you want to keep one of them, even without combat reflexes, you still get 1 attack without combat reflexes. and that single attack will do way more than bleeding critical ever dreamed about.
i would also consider leaving precise strike as the open teamwork feat. really, 1d6 damage at this point isn't that great, compared to p.e. shake it off, or lookout, and etc things.
at lvl15, battles usually last only like 2-3rounds, having you and your pet receive a full round action instead of a single standard in the surprise round basically adds half a round of pain, and having +1-+4 to all saving throws and the same for your pet is also quite good.
Ahh, good advices, tks!!
Markov Spiked Chain wrote: He's not saying drop Outflank, but you've got some other feats there that aren't vital.
Compare Bleeding critical:
Your critical hits does 2d6 bleed.
To:
Your critical hits give you an extra attack at +4 to hit (2d4+22+d6.) That's more than 4 rounds of bleed.
Plus your pet has 6 possible crits that will each grant an extra Talon attack 5% of the time (Bleeding critical doesn't help your pet at all.)
Plus the AoOs you were already getting from Outflank are +4 to hit.
I'd get Paired Opportunists before Bleeding Critical, Extended Bane, and probably Improved Spell Sharing.
I'd also bake Greater Magic Fang +3 into your ACs calculations.
Not sure but i think you got the feats mixed up (or maybe i do). How can i get attack of apportunity from outflank? Paired opportunist does not give free attack of opportunity on crit. The feat that does that is seize the moment.
Precise strike is 1d6 on all attacks. My pet has 7 (in my calculations i actually forgot to include divine power) and i have 4. Thats a potential 11d6 per round...
Spell sharing allows me to put divine power on me and my pet in one cast. That way i can: cast buff, move away from pet for eventual charge. My pet pounce and then i get my free charge. Coordinated charge and spell sharing are there so i dont lose my attack if i buff up. Plus i get free charges if another ally charge and then my pet can pounce again. It can cascade. Its also the reason i chose a raptor and not a cat. A medium pet can get charges more easily.
I got mixed up in my feat progression, bleeding crit requires crit focus, not improved crit. Crit focus and bleeding crit will go out. I cant get improved critical until lvl 11. That means i could only be able to get seize the moment at lvl 13. I also forgot to add my regular feat at lvl 15.
So new feat progression is:
Feats: 1Thoughness, 3combat expertise, 3pack flanking, 5precise strike, 6outflank, 7power attack, 9combat reflexes, 9improved spell sharing, 11improved critical, 12distracting charge, 13seize the moment, 15 coordinated charge, 15paired opportunist
Because i am taking improved crit i do not need a keen weapon, that will be replaced by the menacing property. Looks better?
ps: How do i get Greater magic fang, is it from a spell or from gear?
Outflank does grant an AoO on a crit.
Quote: Outflank (Combat, Teamwork)
You look for every edge when flanking an enemy.
Prerequisite: Base attack bonus +4.
Benefit: Whenever you and an ally who also has this feat are flanking the same creature, your flanking bonus on attack rolls increases to +4. In addition, whenever you score a critical hit against the flanked creature, it provokes an attack of opportunity from your ally.
Imbicatus wrote: Outflank does grant an AoO on a crit.
Quote: Outflank (Combat, Teamwork)
You look for every edge when flanking an enemy.
Prerequisite: Base attack bonus +4.
Benefit: Whenever you and an ally who also has this feat are flanking the same creature, your flanking bonus on attack rolls increases to +4. In addition, whenever you score a critical hit against the flanked creature, it provokes an attack of opportunity from your ally.
Oh, now i understand! So i do not need seize the moment. Basically with outflank when i score a crit my pet gets a free AoO. If i have paired opportunist i get a free AoO because my pet just had one. So a crit gives 2 AoO with paired opportunist, is that correct?
Now lets say i have another ally who does not have any team feat. Me and my pet are flanking an opponent and that ally is beside me. If that ally gets a crit i get a free AoO from outflank, correct? If i get an AoO my pet gets a free one from paired opportunist, still correct?
Does it cascade? I mean my pet just got an AoO so theorically i should get another AoO myself, enalbing my pet to get another one. Would it chain like that until one of us reaches his AoO limit for the round?
Thormind wrote: Markov Spiked Chain wrote: He's not saying drop Outflank, but you've got some other feats there that aren't vital.
Compare Bleeding critical:
Your critical hits does 2d6 bleed.
To:
Your critical hits give you an extra attack at +4 to hit (2d4+22+d6.) That's more than 4 rounds of bleed.
Plus your pet has 6 possible crits that will each grant an extra Talon attack 5% of the time (Bleeding critical doesn't help your pet at all.)
Plus the AoOs you were already getting from Outflank are +4 to hit.
I'd get Paired Opportunists before Bleeding Critical, Extended Bane, and probably Improved Spell Sharing.
I'd also bake Greater Magic Fang +3 into your ACs calculations.
Not sure but i think you got the feats mixed up (or maybe i do). How can i get attack of apportunity from outflank? Paired opportunist does not give free attack of opportunity on crit. The feat that does that is seize the moment.
Precise strike is 1d6 on all attacks. My pet has 7 (in my calculations i actually forgot to include divine power) and i have 4. Thats a potential 11d6 per round...
Spell sharing allows me to put divine power on me and my pet in one cast. That way i can: cast buff, move away from pet for eventual charge. My pet pounce and then i get my free charge. Coordinated charge and spell sharing are there so i dont lose my attack if i buff up. Plus i get free charges if another ally charge and then my pet can pounce again. It can cascade. Its also the reason i chose a raptor and not a cat. A medium pet can get charges more easily.
I got mixed up in my feat progression, bleeding crit requires crit focus, not improved crit. Crit focus and bleeding crit will go out. I cant get improved critical until lvl 11. That means i could only be able to get seize the moment at lvl 13. I also forgot to add my regular feat at lvl 15.
So new feat progression is:
Feats: 1Thoughness, 3combat expertise, 3pack flanking, 5precise strike, 6outflank, 7power attack, 9combat reflexes, 9improved... outflank provokes attack of opportunity FROM YOUR ALLIES when you crit
paired opportunist provokes AoO FROM YOU when your allies get one.
so, with outflank, everytime you crit your pet gets an AoO, and because your pet gets an AoO so do you.
paired opportunist would need to be way, way lower in feat order, like immediatly after outflank.
seize the moment is only useful if you don't have pack flanking, because it negates the need to flank. So 100% useless for your build.
lookout vs precise strike:
1st round of combat:
your pet charges if enemy is within 30ft and gets his attacks
immediate action from you you charge (coordinate charge) and get ONE attack (standard action surpise round)
so that is 8d6 from precise, or something like 28 damage
with lookout:
your pet charges if enemy is within 60ft and get's his attacks
immediate action from you you charge and get FULL ATTACK (full round action surprise round)
so that is i assume MUCH MORE than 28 damage
sv throws vs precise strike:
as for the +4to all saving throws, vs a wizard or a druid or something. a round of attacks from your pet or you is more than like 35damage (10d6). And a single charm animal/dominate/hold/glitterdust/entagle/etc would make your pet's attrocious will saving throws cry
shroudb wrote: outflank provokes attack of opportunity FROM YOUR ALLIES when you crit
paired opportunist provokes AoO FROM YOU when your allies get one.
so, with outflank, everytime you crit your pet gets an AoO, and because your pet gets an AoO so do you.
paired opportunist would need to be way, way lower in feat order, like immediatly after outflank.
seize the moment is only useful if you don't have pack flanking, because it negates the need to flank. So 100% useless for your build.
lookout vs precise strike:
1st round of combat:
your pet charges if enemy is within 30ft and gets his attacks
immediate action from you you charge (coordinate charge) and get ONE attack (standard action surpise round)
so that is 8d6 from precise, or something like 28 damage
with lookout:
your pet charges if enemy is within 60ft and get's his attacks
immediate action from you you charge and get FULL ATTACK (full round action surprise round)
so that is i assume MUCH MORE than 28 damage
sv throws vs precise strike:
as for the +4to all saving throws, vs a wizard or a druid or something. a round of attacks from your pet or you is more than like 35damage (10d6). And a single charm animal/dominate/hold/glitterdust/entagle/etc would make your pet's attrocious will saving throws cry
This post is getting really constructive! Ok so 3rd attempt:
Feats: 1Thoughness, 3combat expertise, 3pack flanking, 5combat reflexes, 6outflank, 7power attack, 9paired opportunist, 9improved spell sharing, 11improved critical, 12distracting charge, 13Shake it off, 15 coordinated charge, 15Precise strike
I understand the advantages of lookout but on my table we almost never use surprise rounds. If i was with a different group and they were playing differently then maybe. Better saves do make sense. For precise strike i put it at lvl 15 but every time i get a new free team feat ill use it until i get my next one.
I'd still like to know how you get greater magic fang for your pet as an Inquisitor...?
Quote: Now lets say i have another ally who does not have any team feat. Me and my pet are flanking an opponent and that ally is beside me. If that ally gets a crit i get a free AoO from outflank, correct? If i get an AoO my pet gets a free one from paired opportunist, still correct?
No, your ally's crits don't cause AoOs unless they have Outflank and are flanking with you or your pet.
And your pet doesn't get an AoO from Paired Opportunists unless you're adjacent. So "me and my pet are flanking" would have to be "me and my pet are adjacent, but count as flanking because of Pack Flanking."
Quote: Does it cascade? I mean my pet just got an AoO so theorically i should get another AoO myself, enalbing my pet to get another one. Would it chain like that until one of us reaches his AoO limit for the round? No, Paired Opportunists specifically says that you only get one AoO from a given action. So if only your pet gets an AoO (because of Outflank or Broken Wing Gambit) then you also get one. But if any enemy provokes from both of you (by say walking past you both to the back of the party) then you each get an AoO and Paired Opportunist doesn't add another one (just the +4 attack!) Paired Opportunists is mostly useful for specific feats that provoke, like Greater Trip, Outflank, Broken Wing Gambit, or Vicious Stomp.
Edit: Oops on Greater Magic Fang, I got this thread and the hunter thread mixed up. ;)
Regarding your Feat Selection, I'd switch to Outflank at 5, Paired Opportunists at 6, and Combat Reflexes at 9, unless I'm missing something about Combat Reflexes (like you're planning on using a reach weapon.)
Thormind wrote:
Does it cascade? I mean my pet just got an AoO so theorically i should get another AoO myself, enalbing my pet to get another one. Would it chain like that until one of us reaches his AoO limit for the round?
It still follows the rule that an action can only provoke once per person. So you crit and they get one and you get one, they don't get another one since they already had that AoO and used it.
Chess Pwn wrote: Thormind wrote:
Does it cascade? I mean my pet just got an AoO so theorically i should get another AoO myself, enalbing my pet to get another one. Would it chain like that until one of us reaches his AoO limit for the round?
It still follows the rule that an action can only provoke once per person. So you crit and they get one and you get one, they don't get another one since they already had that AoO and used it. You can still get more, in specific circumstances.
For example, if you crit with an attack and triggered outflank, and your wolf pet hit with a bite+trip, you would get the AoO from paired opportunist, and when the trip knocked the for prone, you could also make an AoO from Vicious Stomp if you had it.
Markov Spiked Chain wrote: No, your ally's crits don't cause AoOs unless they have Outflank and are flanking with you or your pet.
And your pet doesn't get an AoO from Paired Opportunists unless you're adjacent. So "me and my pet are flanking" would have to be "me and my pet are adjacent, but count as flanking because of Pack Flanking."
Quote:
The sacred huntsmaster share his teamwork feats with his pet and also get:
Solo Tactics (Ex): At 3rd level, all of the inquisitor's allies are treated as if they possessed the same teamwork feats as the inquisitor for the purpose of determining whether the inquisitor receives a bonus from her teamwork feats.
Markov Spiked Chain wrote: Regarding your Feat Selection, I'd switch to Outflank at 5, Paired Opportunists at 6, and Combat Reflexes at 9, unless I'm missing something about Combat Reflexes (like you're planning on using a reach weapon.) forgot this part. I cant get outflank at lvl 5, it requires BAB 4. Earlier i can get is lvl 6.
Thormind wrote: Markov Spiked Chain wrote: No, your ally's crits don't cause AoOs unless they have Outflank and are flanking with you or your pet.
And your pet doesn't get an AoO from Paired Opportunists unless you're adjacent. So "me and my pet are flanking" would have to be "me and my pet are adjacent, but count as flanking because of Pack Flanking."
The sacred huntsmaster share his teamwork feats with his pet and also get:
Solo Tactics (Ex): At 3rd level, all of the inquisitor's allies are treated as if they possessed the same teamwork feats as the inquisitor for the purpose of determining whether the inquisitor receives a bonus from her teamwork feats.
Solo Tactics only affects you, not your pet. Your pet shares your teamwork feats, but not that class feature. So while it has your teamwork feats, it needs to be in position with you or with someone who actually has the feat to benefit from it.
I'd consider Paired Opportunists at 5 and Outflank at 6 then.
I wasn't thinking about Solo Tactics. The way you describe it still wouldn't work (your ally still needs to be flanking.) But you could flank with the Ally, then their crits would give you an AoO from Solo Tactics (I think, the "receives a bonus" wording is a little weird) which you can share with your pet through Paired Opportunists.
Imbicatus wrote: Thormind wrote: Markov Spiked Chain wrote: No, your ally's crits don't cause AoOs unless they have Outflank and are flanking with you or your pet.
And your pet doesn't get an AoO from Paired Opportunists unless you're adjacent. So "me and my pet are flanking" would have to be "me and my pet are adjacent, but count as flanking because of Pack Flanking."
The sacred huntsmaster share his teamwork feats with his pet and also get:
Solo Tactics (Ex): At 3rd level, all of the inquisitor's allies are treated as if they possessed the same teamwork feats as the inquisitor for the purpose of determining whether the inquisitor receives a bonus from her teamwork feats.
Solo Tactics only affects you, not your pet. Your pet shares your teamwork feats, but not that class feature. So while it has your teamwork feats, it needs to be in position with you or with someone who actually has the feat to benefit from it. Yeah but in my example i was getting an AoO from my ally crit and my pet was getting a free AoO from mine. Works no?
Thormind wrote: Imbicatus wrote: Thormind wrote: Markov Spiked Chain wrote: No, your ally's crits don't cause AoOs unless they have Outflank and are flanking with you or your pet.
And your pet doesn't get an AoO from Paired Opportunists unless you're adjacent. So "me and my pet are flanking" would have to be "me and my pet are adjacent, but count as flanking because of Pack Flanking."
The sacred huntsmaster share his teamwork feats with his pet and also get:
Solo Tactics (Ex): At 3rd level, all of the inquisitor's allies are treated as if they possessed the same teamwork feats as the inquisitor for the purpose of determining whether the inquisitor receives a bonus from her teamwork feats.
Solo Tactics only affects you, not your pet. Your pet shares your teamwork feats, but not that class feature. So while it has your teamwork feats, it needs to be in position with you or with someone who actually has the feat to benefit from it. Yeah but in my example i was getting an AoO from my ally crit and my pet was getting a free AoO from mine. Works no? yes
chain of events:
ally gets a critical:
because ally is considered to have outflank FOR YOUR BENEFIT because of solo tactics then you get an AoO
because your pet HAS paired opportunist, and you, who also HAVE paired opportunist just did an AoO against an opponent, then your pet gets an AoO
Markov Spiked Chain wrote: I'd consider Paired Opportunists at 5 and Outflank at 6 then.
I wasn't thinking about Solo Tactics. The way you describe it still wouldn't work (your ally still needs to be flanking.) But you could flank with the Ally, then their crits would give you an AoO from Solo Tactics (I think, the "receives a bonus" wording is a little weird) which you can share with your pet through Paired Opportunists.
Oh i forgot pack flanking only work for my AC. Then redo the example but AC is beside me and flanking and ally is flanking. If ally crit i get free AoO and my pet get one from mine?
Yeah, that would work, trying to picture positioning without a grid is a pain. :)
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