The Future of Quests in PFS


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Liberty's Edge 4/5 5/55/5 **

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GM Lamplighter wrote:

I'd like to re-explore the "serialized Adventure Path" idea here for a minute. While you couldn't just run it in hour-long segments, you *could* re-design it to just "cut to the chase" for every session. I just ran the PFS-sanctioned part of Mummy's Mask, and it would *easily* work as an Encounters-style serial. Yes, you don't get a Chronicle after every session, but you *do* get to keep the loot you find until you get the Chronicle at the "end" of the game - so just like in Encounters, someone gets the magic sword and someone else gets the potion of magic-y goodness. A set of item cards and you are good to go!

Some APs would not take to this very well - I would guess that the more dungeon-crawl-y ones would be easiest to adapt. Maybe Mummy's Mask and Shattered Star?

This would not work for the Player I think Quests would be the best used to draw in, the casual player. To get anything out of it you would have to play multiple weeks before you earned a reward which would require the same group to make it each time. APs work great for home games or small groups that can always play together at a schedule time, but not for what Quests are great at. A short format that gives an reward to hook them in.

Edit: What is great about Quests is that if you miss a game or 2 you still get the reward for play the parts you did, while missing a game or 2 for a AP can lose you out of a reward altogether.

4/5 *

I realize this, Dragnmoon, but I'm trying to look at what is realistic. First, a GM can adapt for players who miss sessions - if a player leaves early or late now, a GM is warranted in crossing stuff off the Chronicle. If something (NOT a Chronicle) is handed out after every game, a lot of this could be dealt with.

I'd love to see Paizo take this on and run with it and put up a large number of quests and a special program, but I just don't see it happening with card games and video games and all the other projects pulling resources away from the RPG line. To me, the next best thing is to show that the market exists by using existing product.

(Hey, it's easier than starting my own unofficial OP campaign, which was where I was back a few months back after a particularly bad game of murder-hoboing... ;)

Sovereign Court 4/5

Curious, just yesterday I sent my open call quest submission. *cough*

Anyway, at the moment there are only two quests (one being a bunch of quests) available for download, and one other that's very well hidden. And John Compton did write about open call and quests not too long ago, so I'm guessing there is a change in sight. Conventions will surely be happy about this, as quests are, essentially, a way to lure new players.

I'm curious as to how to make these quests tempting to old players. Veterans, I mean.

3/5

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Dragnmoon wrote:
There is a reason for that Encounters can only be run on Wednesdays, which is one idea I don't want PFS to absorb.

Indeed. The main advantage of PFS over D&D OP for me has always been that it is something I can play, rather than something I just read about on the Internet.

glass.

4/5 5/55/55/5 *** Venture-Lieutenant, Minnesota—Minneapolis

The two hour format would help a lot at conventions that have gaming areas but aren't all about gaming. There are a lot of conventions with 1.5 to 2 hour time slots. It was playing at a convention that got me started with PFS.

The shorter time would also work a lot better for weekday play, since it is less likely to go past 10pm before the game is done. With the current PFS scenarios, I've had weekday scenarios go until nearly 11pm and the store workers are looking to rush you out.

I think that the shorter adventures would work better in some cases.

That said, I like the longer scenarios since it gives more time to do the explore the plot. Some plots don't need it, but others benefit a lot from the longer time. A lot of plots just are not going to fit well into two hour serials.

4/5 *

This year at JimCon, we are running continuous 2-hour slots of The Silverhex Chronicles in the main gaming room (mostly board games and card games), as well as our regular 30-ish tables of PFS in the "RPG" room (which has no other games running beyond PFS). It gives a great way for attracting the crossover folks, who won't commit 2 con slots to something that isn't already a priority for them. Hopefully some of them will show up at future events just for PFS.

Dark Archive 4/5

I have heard from a local games store GM that 5E encounters have generated huge demand in Manchester UK right now (and grown bigger than a well established PFS).

I can see the attraction of smaller time investment games (Magic the Gathering anyone?). I prefer that sort of length in boardgames and card games. So I can see why it would be popular in RPGs too (though personally I prefer longer RPG modules or campaigns).

As mentioned multiple shorter adventures almost certainly require more investment than a single longer adventure that covers the same total word count, so they have to cost more overall to compensate. And the household name can do that. Right now its about investing to take market share so the public cost comes later. However it does appear that the lesson of quality has been learnt.

Whether the short adventures have the depth to be "sticky" remains to be seen, but again you have to think M:TG.

Which is all a roundabout way of saying that Quests are needed, required even, to compete in this niche and draw in new regular players and time poor players. Convenience and quality content are the standard now. Offering the more "sticky" experience is the key to "winning" in this market segment.

And a part of this is motivating GMs to run your stuff rather than the other guys stuff.

Grand Lodge Venture-Lieutenant, Texas—San Antonio

Very interesting post. I've been playing and DMing encounters for a while now and I think there may be some misunderstandings here. Encounter games run at the same pace per hour that full 5 hr session games do. I could easily see this adapted to PFS by just DMing each 5 hour session in two to 3 iterations. I know as a DM of encounters, it can be 3-4 weeks before I get any DM rewards for an adventure. Not a huge deal because I understand we're moving at a slower pace. So players would get their chronicle after two sessions vs one. Missing a session would sting a bit, but it does in encounters, to a lesser degree. Maybe give half an xp and the portions of the chronicle earned.

Shadow Lodge 4/5

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Keep in mind its nearly a year old. I wouldn't mind hearing some more up to date information, though

Grand Lodge 4/5 **** Venture-Captain, California—Sacramento

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In the year since the post, our area has not seen attendance fall off. If anything it has increased. Of our members we have one person who plays D&D5 org-play. Either they are playing it really, really, wrong, or it is an abusably broken game. (Something about the druid summoning pixies to turn the whole party into T-Rex who then rofl-stomped an encounter they were supposed to run from, and the whole party got 10x the exp they were supposed to get, and some of them went up 3 levels from that one encounter.)

Sovereign Court 5/5 Owner - Enchanted Grounds, President/Owner - Enchanted Grounds

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DM Beckett wrote:
Keep in mind its nearly a year old. I wouldn't mind hearing some more up to date information, though

I'll give new information. I'd love to hear thoughts.

Dragnmoon linked to a post from over two years ago to start this thread. To sum that post up, I was warning that a plan needed to be implemented to keep PFS (and Pathfinder) fresh in peoples' minds with the oncoming competition that D&D 5th Edition was bound to bring to bear in 2014. The thread that post created was long, and contentious, and basically ended when Lisa Stevens came in to state that they had a plan and things were going to be awesome.

This thread we are currently in popped up because Dragnmoon saw an immediate drop off in attendance once 5th Edition was released, and did not see people migrate back to PFS as quickly as he thought they should. He also pointed out that the "plan" Lisa had said was in place seemed to amount to "continue publishing," with nothing truly innovative in terms of player retention and new-player attraction. It seems much less contentious and active than the thread from 2013.

My own experiences (meaning, I get it: this is purely anecdotal) in the 29 months since my thread and 12 months since Dragnmoon's thread, is that Paizo, Pathfinder, and PFS have lost a lot of steam. My (once again, anecdotal) evidence to support my conclusion:

Sales: I'm sure no one will be surprised to hear that as the PHB, DMG, and MM were released sales numbers for 5e blew PF out of the water. What *may* be surprising is that, over a year later, with a mere 7 products available for purchase, D&D sales continue to blow PF sales out of the water. I constantly hear about how fresh and interesting the 5e take on role playing is. I am regularly having to overcome strong objections (that's a sales term) to get people to buy Pathfinder. Those objections include overwhelming numbers of books, a brand name that is NOT Dungeons and Dragons, and a distinct lack of 1st level content. Those are the big ones. There are others, but these "others" are the standard objections I've dealt with since the PF Core Rulebook came out.

New Players: New RPG players (specifically, those under 20 years old), are flocking to D&D. With a quick and easy way to get involved in a regular game (Encounters) that only cuts into homework time with 2 hours of gaming, this format is the go-to environment for school aged kids. Also, with a limited budget, the low number of books is incredibly attractive to them (despite the actual ending purchase of an entry-level "ownership" of the game being more expensive). These two points combined with the obviously strong Dungeons and Dragons brand name have created an insurmountable lead in the "New Player Acquisition" front of the competition.

PFS Attendance: I used to schedule four tables of PFS at my shop during four different slots each month (so, 16 tables). I would announce them around the 1st of each month, taking signups ahead of the games. I was usually 100% booked within 72 hours of announcing the month's games. In the last year I have been forced to drop the number of tables I offer to three, and am often canceling one of those three tables due to lack of players. It is rare that I fill any table to capacity, even when the scenarios I offer are less than two weeks old. Many, many people have left PFS, be it for home games, D&D OrgPlay, or merely because they have moved somewhere. And as these players leave PFS they are not being replaced with the ease they used to be replaced.

Encounters Attendance: Three tables per week at one store, during two different slots, are filled to capacity each week. I have a second store that is brand new (barely three months old) and we will be adding a second table to the Encounters schedule this week. To date over there, we have filled one table during both slots, again to capacity (7 players, for D&D). That is 56 players taking up seats each and every Wednesday. I am assuming that, with another table for the new store, that number will grow to 70 within the next few weeks.

Expeditions Attendance: This one is far more relevant to PFS, I think. It's a 4-hour slot, requiring a lot of prep on the part of a DM, and a significantly more detailed investment from the players (tracking xp, gold, certs, what a PC has played, etc.). We only run 4 total tables at the original store, and another 6 at the new store. Tables DO NOT fill to capacity, and are sometimes canceled due to lack of players. Getting DMs can be a struggle, and convincing players to invest the time for these games seems difficult. I find that this section almost exactly mirrors PFS.

PFS Adventure Card Game Attendence: This experiment was a complete failure in my store. I tried. I really did. It went exactly nowhere. And when Paizo began releasing this product monthly instead of bi-monthly, and made the Class Decks an integral part of purchases, sales tanked, too. I have stopped carrying this product in my stores, with the exception of a standing order for one customer, and a single copy of the base game of Rise of the Runelords. I really wish this product had been handled completely differently. It had great promise.

Overall impressions after typing all this:

PFS needs to do a better job of attracting new players to Pathfinder. It looks like the 4-hour adventure model is no longer the "go to" model for OrgPlay, and the "drop-in 90-120 minutes playing and done" model is The New Hotness(tm).

Paizo needs to do a better job of creating a desire to play their game. The distinct lack of printed 1st level content is a huge barrier to entrance to the game. The only thing that comes out consistently is the 1st volume of an Adventure Path every six months. Otherwise, nothing has been published for 1st level since Dragon's Demand (except the two confusingly branded "Pathfinder Online" books that each had 1st level content).

Paizo might want to consider slowing the onslaught of new content. 38 base classes is a crazy number of classes, and something new players can't even come close to wrapping their heads around. Existing players have complained bitterly about how overwhelming the content is, while casually thumbing through Savage Worlds books or some other low-content RPG game. Explaining to these people how they don't have to have all that content to play the game is like having a friendly political debate with a polarized individual: it's impossible - they just don't want to hear your side.

Final Conclusion: It looks like I'm relying too much on Paizo. Which means I have to have my own plans. I have obviously arrived at the opinion that Paizo is no longer the partner they used to be, and I have been fighting against their business model in a lot of ways in an effort to keep PFS viable in my shops. So, I need to come up with a way to use their business model to my advantage again. I've said it before, and I'll say it again: Game stores must adapt or die. Hopefully this will turn Paizo back into the partner they used to be for me, and my relationship with their product and company will return to the lofty perch of success it used to enjoy.

Store Information:
I run two shops in Denver, Colorado called Enchanted Grounds. The first one opened in October 2006, the second this past June (2015). They are about 12 miles apart, on the south and southwest sides of the metro area. The original store will reach $1 million in sales volume this year. Store #2 will do $200,000+ for its first six months, if it maintains it's current pace. I expect growth at that store to push sales over $500,000 next year. I have run PFS at the original store since 2009, and run Core-only PFS at the new shop, which has done reasonably well as a new program. I run game events for nearly every major game, not just PFS, D&D, and Magic, and am constantly hunting for new OrgPlay programs offered by game publishers. They are my bread and butter.

I like to think I don't screw around with a game store "hobby" and instead run a well received retail operation that plans to expand and grow a community. My "anecdotal" evidence is backed up by sales numbers that I can track to specific details, and even to specific employees to see what they gravitate toward as sales people.

I make these statements to help show you my perspective on the above information.

Scarab Sages 1/5

Drogon wrote:
DM Beckett wrote:
Keep in mind its nearly a year old. I wouldn't mind hearing some more up to date information, though

I'll give new information. I'd love to hear thoughts.

Dragnmoon linked to a post from over two years ago to start this thread. To sum that post up, I was warning that a plan needed to be implemented to keep PFS (and Pathfinder) fresh in peoples' minds with the oncoming competition that D&D 5th Edition was bound to bring to bear in 2014. The thread that post created was long, and contentious, and basically ended when Lisa Stevens came in to state that they had a plan and things were going to be awesome.

This thread we are currently in popped up because Dragnmoon saw an immediate drop off in attendance once 5th Edition was released, and did not see people migrate back to PFS as quickly as he thought they should. He also pointed out that the "plan" Lisa had said was in place seemed to amount to "continue publishing," with nothing truly innovative in terms of player retention and new-player attraction. It seems much less contentious and active than the thread from 2013.

My own experiences (meaning, I get it: this is purely anecdotal) in the 29 months since my thread and 12 months since Dragnmoon's thread, is that Paizo, Pathfinder, and PFS have lost a lot of steam. My (once again, anecdotal) evidence to support my conclusion:

Sales: I'm sure no one will be surprised to hear that as the PHB, DMG, and MM were released sales numbers for 5e blew PF out of the water. What *may* be surprising is that, over a year later, with a mere 7 products available for purchase, D&D sales continue to blow PF sales out of the water. I constantly hear about how fresh and interesting the 5e take on role playing is. I am regularly having to overcome strong objections (that's a sales term) to get people to buy Pathfinder. Those objections include overwhelming numbers of books, a brand name that is NOT Dungeons and Dragons, and a distinct lack of 1st level content. Those are the big ones....

That's a hell of a good post. Good insights. Good analysis. Hopefully they recover from the transition of campaign leadership.

Grand Lodge Venture-Lieutenant, Texas—San Antonio

FLite wrote:
In the year since the post, our area has not seen attendance fall off. If anything it has increased. Of our members we have one person who plays D&D5 org-play. Either they are playing it really, really, wrong, or it is an abusably broken game. (Something about the druid summoning pixies to turn the whole party into T-Rex who then rofl-stomped an encounter they were supposed to run from, and the whole party got 10x the exp they were supposed to get, and some of them went up 3 levels from that one encounter.)

I find many old PF guys looking back to pathfinder after playing 5e for a bit. Also, many new players get going for a couple months and taper off. Many seem to wish they had more options or find when they've mastered the system, the shine is gone and they're left wanting.

I also miss paizo and their support. Wotc seems to have just slapped the AL together and let it coast. Many adventures are pretty flat.

Shadow Lodge 4/5

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One thing I can say is that, having run a great deal of the PFS material across the board, but not all, I, as a DM, much, much prefer Season 0-2, (maybe 3, too), than anything later. The earlier Seasons left a lot more up to the DM to interpret and add flavor and tactics for while the later ones seem more and more to be designed to have the DM act like a computer, but unable to alter much on the fly as needed.

In my opinion, the Adv Card Game was kind of a failure from the start. The entry fee is extreme. I can't think of another word for it. It is basically based on the concept of playing a Pregen constantly, as far as I can tell, (might have changed), and well, it focuses a lot on the same products over and over again. It starting decks and rules would have been around half the price they where, there was a personalized character option, and it either used the uncommon APs, (Kingmaker, Legacy of Fire, and hell, ANYTHING BUT Wrath of the Righteous, Pirates of the Caribbean, or Rise of the Runelords), I might be a bit more interested. But being that I'd basically be required to drop about $200+ US, on a maybe, sorry, but no.

5E has had a noticeable affect on my group, as about half of them decided to split their time between PFS and Encounters/Expeditions. I was honestly considering swapping over, except that I outright loath the Forgotten Realms. But, with a few of the regulars now deployed, and the rest only half interesting in PFS, my groups are mostly on hold for now, just because of the level gaps involved. Far too many players hated Season 6 and Numeria/Technology, I was asked never to run it again, which just further complicated things for what could be run for everyone.

I'd say that the single biggest factor for 5E not being a lot more popular and causing more issues with PFS play is the single fact that the Core Books are not available for fairly cheap PDF purchase and download. It's a decision I truly can not fathom, as even I might be tempted to pick them up for $10 or $15 US, but I think if they would have gone that route, things might be significantly different.

We do have three Gaming Stores in the area, and in all three, Pathfinder (and PFS) is basically non-existent. There just isn't a sustainable market for it. I've tried to get it started at all three, but no luck. But, both 4E and now 5E have been pretty consistent, with one of the three specializing in 4E right after MtG.

Scarab Sages 1/5

DM Beckett wrote:

One thing I can say is that, having run a great deal of the PFS material across the board, but not all, I, as a DM, much, much prefer Season 0-2, (maybe 3, too), than anything later. The earlier Seasons left a lot more up to the DM to interpret and add flavor and tactics for while the later ones seem more and more to be designed to have the DM act like a computer, but unable to alter much on the fly as needed.

In my opinion, the Adv Card Game was kind of a failure from the start. The entry fee is extreme. I can't think of another word for it. It is basically based on the concept of playing a Pregen constantly, as far as I can tell, (might have changed), and well, it focuses a lot on the same products over and over again. It starting decks and rules would have been around half the price they where, there was a personalized character option, and it either used the uncommon APs, (Kingmaker, Legacy of Fire, and hell, ANYTHING BUT Wrath of the Righteous, Pirates of the Caribbean, or Rise of the Runelords), I might be a bit more interested. But being that I'd basically be required to drop about $200+ US, on a maybe, sorry, but no.

5E has had a noticeable affect on my group, as about half of them decided to split their time between PFS and Encounters/Expeditions. I was honestly considering swapping over, except that I outright loath the Forgotten Realms. But, with a few of the regulars now deployed, and the rest only half interesting in PFS, my groups are mostly on hold for now, just because of the level gaps involved. Far too many players hated Season 6 and Numeria/Technology, I was asked never to run it again, which just further complicated things for what could be run for everyone.

I'd say that the single biggest factor for 5E not being a lot more popular and causing more issues with PFS play is the single fact that the Core Books are not available for fairly cheap PDF purchase and download. It's a decision I truly can not fathom, as even I might be tempted to pick them up for $10 or $15 US, but I think...

Yes, the cost of the card game is ridiculous to get people interested and keep coming back, especially when you have to "start over" every six months.

Scarab Sages 5/5 5/5 *** Venture-Captain, Netherlands

Bill Henderson wrote:
FLite wrote:
In the year since the post, our area has not seen attendance fall off. If anything it has increased. Of our members we have one person who plays D&D5 org-play. Either they are playing it really, really, wrong, or it is an abusably broken game. (Something about the druid summoning pixies to turn the whole party into T-Rex who then rofl-stomped an encounter they were supposed to run from, and the whole party got 10x the exp they were supposed to get, and some of them went up 3 levels from that one encounter.)

I find many old PF guys looking back to pathfinder after playing 5e for a bit. Also, many new players get going for a couple months and taper off. Many seem to wish they had more options or find when they've mastered the system, the shine is gone and they're left wanting.

I also miss paizo and their support. Wotc seems to have just slapped the AL together and let it coast. Many adventures are pretty flat.

THis is pretty much it for me too. I'm looking for an evening of good play. Encounters are nice to fill a gap, but dont provide the content I seek in an evening of pen and paper RPG.

I dont know if its locally, but I've never even seen a map on the table. While you dont need that to have fun, combat without tactics is a bit bland.

I do hope that when a lot of the younger players have mastered the encounters, they will come looking for a more solid adventure.

Shadow Lodge 4/5

One of the big issues with 5E, and this is partially true for 4E as well, is that they tried to crowd source their design. It actually reminded me a great deal of Paizo's Open Playtesting, with a huge lack of feedback. But, for D&D, and in particular because they used this poll system for the way that the entire system was meant to run is that they essentially only targeted their own existing forum audience with their questions.

And one of the big things that came up was a push to return to the old school theater of the mind combat style, (no maps or mini's involved). Personally, I found this odd as I don't really remember ever playing those games without maps and mini's, but whatever.

The vast majority of the responses indicated that people wanted to play without a dungeon or combat map, or at the least that these sort of things where not required. Sort of in response to 4E with everything based on number of squares (very similar to the 5ft square grid), people didn't want that. But, like I said, they essentially only targeted their own existing audience here, and because a pretty large portion of players left 4E for things like Pathfinder, it probably gave a very skewed view of what potential fans would probably really want.

Sovereign Court 5/5 Owner - Enchanted Grounds, President/Owner - Enchanted Grounds

Woran wrote:
I do hope that when a lot of the younger players have mastered the encounters, they will come looking for a more solid adventure.

See, this is what I was expecting to have happen. Even the way the Adventurer's League markets Encounters vs Expeditions, they expect this to happen. Play Encounters for a little while to get your PC started and whet your appetite for adventure, then take that character over into Expeditions and continue its career.

But it's not happening. Not in the D&DAL. And they are not jumping back over to PFS, either (because I do see a lot of former PFS players in Encounters sessions). They are just sticking around in Encounters and running through those sessions week after week, with seemingly no interest in pursuing more. I have yet to quiz the players on what is so attractive about the format, but have plans to.

Sovereign Court 5/5 Owner - Enchanted Grounds, President/Owner - Enchanted Grounds

"Devil's Advocate" wrote:
stuff

While I (largely) agree with your observations, I'm leery of going down the rabbit hole of mechanics and game marketing comparisons. That should not be what this thread is about.

Let us not derail into the temptation of edition warring, my brethren. Instead let us ponder on the perils of Organzied Play migration and the maintenance of our flock.

Shadow Lodge 4/5

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I was actually meaning them for the direct purposes of increasing PFS play.

Some of my ideas are along the lines of toning down a lot of the Scenario's complicating factors, and allowing a lot more freedom to the DM's to flavor and interpret things the way they like, which was a lot more common in the earlier seasons.

I know a lot of people here are against it, but, in my opinion, removing the 1-7 Tier really, really hurts the game more than it helps, because one of the largest issues I run into, (and I realize this is just me), is not being able to find a lot of scenarios that everyone that wants to play can play in together. It's basically inevitable that there are gaps when certain people just can not play together any more, and because there are a few players that have already played the vast majority of the scenarios, it gets difficult to work around that and only gets harder.

Again, returning to something that at least felt a lot more true in the earlier seasons, lets try to return to exploring the world and unfamiliar/uncommon locations. While it's sometimes cool to be able to play a "spiritual sequel" Scenario, (I don't mean multiparters here), in my experience, about 90% of the time that this actually happens, (like say Black Waters -> School of Spirits), no one has a character that's even in the same range that played the first one, so it's a pretty wasted opportunity.

Monthly or bi-monthly Holiday Boons. Especially those that correspond with real life holidays.

More 2 or 3 part scenarios in a row. My understanding is that one of the benefits, but also disappointments to Expeditions' story is that any part can really be done in in order, and even with different characters, and it doesn't matter too much. They are only vaguely tied together, but not really related. So, I'd suggest aiming for a different approach, and try to encourage more short stories across the seasons, but that are not really tied to any sort of season theme.

Take a look at what scenarios people really loved, and why, and also which ones they didn't, and why. Read the reviews rather than the stars given them. Take all that, and try to aim to repeat it, but not to the point of overdoing it. I'd say scenarios like the first four Blakros Museum scenarios, Night Marches, God's Market Gamble, and things like that.

It might also help to have a free "starter" Boon for new players. Something that's fairly common, so not really game breaking or super special, but it wets the appetite for more. So, maybe after reaching Level 2 a new player can receives a Boon that unlocks a single Race, but not one that's normally highly restricted. Maybe the BASE Aasimar/Tiefling or Dhampir which I believe has been out of play for a while now.

Finally, on of the most important early factors that got me into PFS was that a lot of the earlier scenario's left me feeling like our actions mattered. I mean seriously, we once saved Absalom from being taken over by an undead army, (AT LEVEL 1!!!), travelled to an unknown iceberg through a plane, redeemed a powerful witch with a case of the woman scorned, then reunited her with her boyfriend who was dying from a terrible epic curse. Again, at level 1. Now, we go check out the basement of a tavern, or explore a cave under the watchful eye of a Halfling that loves the spotlight. Lets aim to get back to some of the epicness of adventures.

Sovereign Court 5/5 RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8

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Drogon,

I don't have much to add about your data, there are different reasons for the changes locally that are more unique.

I wanted to reply though, to congratulate you on opening another successful store.

Shadow Lodge 4/5

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A few other things that sprung to mind that might help to increase PFS.

More Quest style Quests, but aim for 4, 1 hour long parts that all fit together. This allows them to function very similar to a normal scenario, but also to be used as a single 1 hour experience as well.

Something I've also considered is some way to remove the Pregens as the only option if you don't have a character, (so many of them are just so poorly done), but also allow for people to be able to just grab something and play. Something that might work would be to have a sort of basic, partially premade Character sheet "Pregen", but still leaving a bit of room for customization.

Start out pretty basic, here, and just make the Cleric, Fighter, Rogue, and Sorcerer. Each has two (three?) basic builds, and rather than trying to mechanically fit a picture, have them highlight some of the basic concepts and rules of the game.

Cleric: Healer and Buffer build or Crusader Build
Fighter: Two-Handed Weapon build or Sword and Board build
Rogue: Sneak Attack build or Skill Junkie build
Sorcerer: Utility and Lore build or Blaster build

What's key here would be to allow for a bit of customization, so everyone but the Rogue has one floating Skill Rank that a player can put anywhere, (Rogue gets 2), and little things like that. They can also have the option between Favored Class Bonus and maybe even 1 Trait.

The Iconic Pregens still exist, but mostly only if someone really wants to or a DM NPC to make a table.

I think little things like this would also greatly help to bring in people.

Liberty's Edge 5/5

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Starfinder Superscriber
DM Beckett wrote:
inally, on of the most important early factors that got me into PFS was that a lot of the earlier scenario's left me feeling like our actions mattered. I mean seriously, we once saved Absalom from being taken over by an undead army, (AT LEVEL 1!!!), travelled to an unknown iceberg through a plane, redeemed a powerful witch with a case of the woman scorned, then reunited her with her boyfriend who was dying from a terrible epic curse. Again, at level 1. Now, we go check out the basement of a tavern, or explore a cave under the watchful eye of a Halfling that loves the spotlight. Lets aim to get back to some of the epicness of adventures.

Hmm... serious cherry-picking there. You're talking about two scenarios designed to introduce players to the Society. The Confirmation is indeed a "introduction to trouble" scenario, but "Wounded Wisp" has you unconvering bits of the origin of the Pathfinder Society -- it's weighty stuff.

If you pick other scenarios from seasons 5-6 to turn into a soundbyte, you have done things like:


  • Activate a giant demon-killing laser tower while under threat and important lives are seriously on the line;
  • Lead an army through the worldwound;
  • Found a missing jeweled sage and chose the new faction head of the Scarab Sages;
  • Freed a hidden valley town from the yoke of a massive oppressor;
  • Found parts of an ancient artifact known as the Sky Key (some of them potentially at level 1!);
  • Saved an Ustalav pathfinder lodge from disaster;
  • Defended the Grand Lodge campus from a massive Aspis incursion;
  • Attacked the Grand Lodge campus as part of a massive Aspis incursion.

That sounds a bit more epic than what you pulled out. I just don't see the "we were epic before, aren't now" complaint.

Liberty's Edge 5/5

Starfinder Superscriber

Re: pregens, one of the things I carry around with me are pre-made first-level characters. I base them entirely on Core things (except I give a bunch of them journals, which aren't Core), so new players can get a handle on them just using the CRB. If I'm playing a subtier 1-2 game, I can hand these out to new players, and they can play them instead of one of the pregens. Because of the retraining rules, they aren't wed to what I've made, but if they want, they can continue with them.

I haven't used these much in recent years-- I'm much more often playing with established PFS players. But, I used them quite a bit when I was starting up some PFS at my previous University, and I even gave one to a new Paizo staffer (who was playing her first Pathfinder game ever at the time...).

This doesn't work for levels 4 and 7, but does work at level 1.

Shadow Lodge 4/5

rknop wrote:

Hmm... serious cherry-picking there. You're talking about two scenarios designed to introduce players to the Society. The Confirmation is indeed a "introduction to trouble" scenario, but "Wounded Wisp" has you unconvering bits of the origin of the Pathfinder Society -- it's weighty stuff.

If you pick other scenarios from seasons 5-6 to turn into a soundbyte, you have done things like:


  • Activate a giant demon-killing laser tower while under threat and important lives are seriously on the line;
  • Lead an army through the worldwound;
  • Found a missing jeweled sage and chose the new faction head of the Scarab Sages;
  • Freed a hidden valley town from the yoke of a massive oppressor;
  • Found parts of an ancient artifact known as the Sky Key (some of them potentially at level 1!);
  • Saved an Ustalav pathfinder lodge from disaster;
  • Defended the Grand Lodge campus from a massive Aspis incursion;
  • Attacked the Grand Lodge campus as part of a massive Aspis incursion.

That sounds a bit more epic than what you pulled out. I just don't see the "we were epic before, aren't now" complaint.

Honestly, it was just a few things off the top of my head I figured might have some decent immediate recognition without spoiling anything about them (much).

But, for most of those, why would a new player care. Now, the one on the list that's kind of the exception, (I'm assuming you are referring to Weapon in the Rift), is pretty dang epic, in my opinion.

Leading an army through the Worldwound could potentially be a few different scenarios, but one of the biggest complaints about that season I recall was there was a lot of Demons, but no actual crusading in the Worldwound.

Destiny of the Sands is a lot less interesting if you are not Scarab Sages or a new player that cares about the Factions at all.

Valley of the Veiled Flame was interesting and fun. No doubt, and really hinted at being epic. (Just my opinion). But the truth was the best part was the Chronicle Sheet when combined with another Chronicle sheet, and little to do with the actual scenario itself. Had a lot of interesting potential, but a lot of it was also outside the scope of this scenario. :P But, I'll give you that one too.

Are we talking about the Darkest Vengeance or the Darkest Abduction here, (or even Midnight Mauler)? I haven't played/run Abduction yet, but from what I've heard it wasn't too great. Vengeance on the other hand dealt with a lot of the things I'm talking about. Exploration of a new place, a threat that's pretty huge and important, and something out of the norm.

What's a Grand Lodge campus, who or what is an Aspis, and why do I are says the new player.

Times two.

Shadow Lodge 4/5

rknop wrote:

Re: pregens, one of the things I carry around with me are pre-made first-level characters. I base them entirely on Core things (except I give a bunch of them journals, which aren't Core), so new players can get a handle on them just using the CRB. If I'm playing a subtier 1-2 game, I can hand these out to new players, and they can play them instead of one of the pregens. Because of the retraining rules, they aren't wed to what I've made, but if they want, they can continue with them.

I haven't used these much in recent years-- I'm much more often playing with established PFS players. But, I used them quite a bit when I was starting up some PFS at my previous University, and I even gave one to a new Paizo staffer (who was playing her first Pathfinder game ever at the time...).

This doesn't work for levels 4 and 7, but does work at level 1.

That's not at all a terrible idea. Part of the goal I was kind of going for is that by starting out with some fairly minor options and allowing a degree of building your own character, it might help to encourage new players. Honestly, just speaking for myself, if I where brand new to a game, or even brand new to gaming, I'd be much more interested in beginning to learn to build something I want than taking a piece of paper that's essentially written in a foreign alphabet. I was thinking more along the lines of something half way between the Strategy Guide and the Pregens, with a few things left blank or as either/or options, but enough of it already done to make it something that could reasonably be finished in under five minutes, but still also be reasonably optimized.

Sovereign Court 5/5 Owner - Enchanted Grounds, President/Owner - Enchanted Grounds

Matthew Morris wrote:

Drogon,

I don't have much to add about your data, there are different reasons for the changes locally that are more unique.

I wanted to reply though, to congratulate you on opening another successful store.

Thank you. (-:

Still curious to hear your observations, though.

Sczarni 5/5 5/55/5 ***

2 people marked this as a favorite.

I really, really hope that Pathfinder has a 2.0 in its future plans. Bloat is a thing, and I don't see too much more that can be added to this edition. I haven't really bought much material in this last year because I still haven't enjoyed everything I bought in the two years prior (and I play a lot). Most of my recent purchases have only been for PFS legality, with maybe a couple items, spells, or feats making their way into my character lineup. I still haven't read all of the Advanced Class Guide or Occult Adventures, and I've barely touched Pathfinder Unchained (though mostly because not much is PFS legal).

That being said, I want to be playing Pathfinder 5.0 twenty years from now.

Pathfinder 2.0 would be a stellar opportunity to reflect back on all the copy/paste errors of porting over from D&D3.5 and begin anew. I can envision hardback setting books for Garund, Avistan, Tian Xia, Casmaron, and Sarusan (akin to what AD&D did with settings like Dark Sun, Ravenloft, and Forgotten Realms). Relegating them to splatbooks is demoralizing. The Inner Sea World Guide is probably my favorite setting book. Heck, there could be an entire setting book just on the Shadow Plane and its echoes of the Material Plane.

This Season of PFS has been phenomenal, IMO. It has way more potential to bring ppl into (or back into) Pathfinder than last Season. But, as excited as I am to see everything this Season has to offer, I can't help but think it's only a patch for a system that's running the same risk of collapsing from Bloat as its predecessors.

We need Pathfinder 2.0

1/5 5/5

Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Nefreet wrote:

This Season of PFS has been phenomenal, IMO. It has way more potential to bring ppl into (or back into) Pathfinder than last Season. But, as excited as I am to see everything this Season has to offer, I can't help but think it's only a patch for a system that's running the same risk of collapsing from Bloat as its predecessors.

We need Pathfinder 2.0

A Pathfinder 2.0 that can be reverse-compatible for those that 'bought in' on 1.0, so that the sizable investment in the source material isn't lost with a 'New Coke' product.

I was initially going to say something a lot harsher, but it did occur to me that yes, after carrying around nine books for my L5 bard this weekend.... there's bloat.

And no, not bloat-magi.

3/5

1 person marked this as a favorite.
Nefreet wrote:

I really, really hope that Pathfinder has a 2.0 in its future plans. Bloat is a thing, and I don't see too much more that can be added to this edition. I haven't really bought much material in this last year because I still haven't enjoyed everything I bought in the two years prior (and I play a lot). Most of my recent purchases have only been for PFS legality, with maybe a couple items, spells, or feats making their way into my character lineup. I still haven't read all of the Advanced Class Guide or Occult Adventures, and I've barely touched Pathfinder Unchained (though mostly because not much is PFS legal).

That being said, I want to be playing Pathfinder 5.0 twenty years from now.

Pathfinder 2.0 would be a stellar opportunity to reflect back on all the copy/paste errors of porting over from D&D3.5 and begin anew. I can envision hardback setting books for Garund, Avistan, Tian Xia, Casmaron, and Sarusan (akin to what AD&D did with settings like Dark Sun, Ravenloft, and Forgotten Realms). Relegating them to splatbooks is demoralizing. The Inner Sea World Guide is probably my favorite setting book. Heck, there could be an entire setting book just on the Shadow Plane and its echoes of the Material Plane.

This Season of PFS has been phenomenal, IMO. It has way more potential to bring ppl into (or back into) Pathfinder than last Season. But, as excited as I am to see everything this Season has to offer, I can't help but think it's only a patch for a system that's running the same risk of collapsing from Bloat as its predecessors.

We need Pathfinder 2.0

I am against 2.0. Paizo took 3.5 and ran with it. Making slight changes is that are reverse compatible is not enough of a change to support a 2.0. So that would leave a whole new gaming system that is something different and new.

Well many people are happy with 3rd edition esque play. Why paizo did so well was taking all those players missing 3rd edition D&D abandoned and offered it to them. So to do that again? I think it is suicide. How do you make something new and keep the people that liek the old?

D&D is a novelty. The name itself will sell books because nerdiness sells now and what is more nerdy? D&D can afford to be dumb and give away it's product. Pathfinder was born from that mistake.

Liberty's Edge 5/5

Starfinder Superscriber

Pathfinder 2.0 shouldn't be a big system revision, the way the last three editions of D&D have been.

It should be more like the change from GURPS 3e to GURPS 4e, or even the change from AD&D 1e to AD&D 2e. Or, heck, the change from D&D 3.5e to Pathfinder.

Not a big system change, not a whole new system. The same basic system, but cleaned up. Many of the classes could stay as-is, but many of them would need to be rebalanced. Lots of things would be clarified. A few things would (hopefully) be simplified.

Probably go ahead and make the division into Player's Guide and GM's guide. I like there just being one Core rulebook, but the vision I have would require a bigger Player's book than that could support. Include a suite of (say) 16 classes in the Player's Guide that may not be exactly what we have right now. Include Archetypes, Traits (RENAMED!), and Psychic magic from the beginning.

Publish, AND STICK TO (with delays allowed, but not additions), a plan for expansions that tell you what new classes are coming. Limit it strictly to only something like 8 or 10 expansion classes ever, released over the next year or two. That way, players coming into the system don't have to wonder what the heck it is that all of these people are playing. (I never played a lot of 3.5e, and only ever read the core books. As such, I don't recognize the game when I hear about many of the classes people talk about playing. Pathfinder should avoid that... but it's decidedly there now.) After that, come up with a business plan that doesn't require you to keep putting out stuff that will eventually overwhelm the new player (and even many of us old-hat players), requiring a version upgrade (i.e. an excuse to start over so that the total amount of material seems less again) in five or six years.

The business plan should include regular release of 1st edition content, as Drogon points out. Make sure that every year a 1st level module comes out. I don't know if it would be possible to go back to 32-page modules. They may not make economic sense, but they're a really nice length for people browsing and looking at things. But, also, support higher-level play, to support your continuing players. Adventure Paths could probably stay as-is; it's the modules that probably need tweaking. I like some of the 64-page modules, but from a player/buyer's point of view, I don't think they're as effective as the more frequent 32-page modules were.

Make the system as much as possible backwards compatible with the Campaign Setting and Player Companion books, so that people can continue to use most of what's in those books. Maybe not the archetypes, but perhaps some of the spells (with GM approval), some of the items. Definitely the fluff. Probably the NPCs and monsters.

A bigger change than that would probably kill Pathfinder. A clean-up change like this could revitalize it.

PFS would probably need to do a refresh. It could be done either as a continuation of the story, or as a new reset of the story. It may well be possible to keep all of the existing scenarios as legal scenarios (the way season 0 scenarios are legal, even though they were written for a different game system). However, it might be cleaner to start over. That would require some difficult balancing, as the size of the current PFS community might make it difficult to start over -- it just wouldn't be possible for scenarios to come out fast enough to satisfy everybody if the new ones were all that there was out there to play.

Silver Crusade 4/5 5/55/55/5 RPG Superstar 2013 Top 8

rknop wrote:
Probably go ahead and make the division into Player's Guide and GM's guide.

One of my complaints about D&D 3.0/3.5 was the seemingly arbitrary division of rules between the PHB and DMG (since the DMG invariably had rules that the players needed to reference, and vice versa). One of the things I love about Pathfinder was that they combined both books into a single Core Rulebook.

Shadow Lodge 4/5 *** Venture-Captain, Michigan—Mt. Pleasant

Michael Eshleman wrote:
rknop wrote:
Probably go ahead and make the division into Player's Guide and GM's guide.
One of my complaints about D&D 3.0/3.5 was the seemingly arbitrary division of rules between the PHB and DMG (since the DMG invariably had rules that the players needed to reference, and vice versa). One of the things I love about Pathfinder was that they combined both books into a single Core Rulebook.

And from what I remember, that's exactly why they did that, so that you only had one book needed to run a game (or two with bestiary).

Sovereign Court 5/5 RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8

Drogon wrote:
Matthew Morris wrote:

Drogon,

I don't have much to add about your data, there are different reasons for the changes locally that are more unique.

I wanted to reply though, to congratulate you on opening another successful store.

Thank you. (-:

Still curious to hear your observations, though.

More quests, more 'Gateway drugs'. More 'kid friendly' one shots. I ran Black Waters for a table of kids, and their parents took a leap of faith with the creepy undead. Yeah, they were scared, but rescuing the girl at the end gave them a sense of accomplishment. Scenarios where they end on a tangible positive note.

And more events. Game days, maybe with one shot GM/player boons. (Like the beginner box's 'one free raise dead'.)

Scarab Sages 4/5

Drogon: I'm sure you know this, but with regard to sales numbers as an indication of popularity, it should be expected that Pathfinder products, especially the Core Rulebook and earlier hardbacks, would have lower sales at a physical store than 5E. As GM Beckett pointed out, Paizo offers PDFs and D&D doesn't. It's unfortunate for someone like yourself who runs a FLGS, but it's inevitable that a larger number of people are likely to buy a $10 PDF than a $40 or $50 book. Also, 5E is relatively new still, while Pathfinder has now been around for a while. New players will still need to buy the Core Rulebook and other early hardbacks, but a large number of PFS players will already own the "essential" books. The hardbacks that are coming out now are optional material. Some of them may prove more popular than others, but, for example, not everyone needs Mythic Adventures, especially in PFS. Occult Adventures is another one that most PFS players won't need. But everyone who plays 5E needs to pick up a Players Handbook, and a good number of them need the Dungeon Master's Guide, too. So actual sales of physical books at a FLGS isn't necessarily the best indicator of popularity.

Your numbers on attendance are much more important. My thought on Encounters vs Quests is that the popularity of Quests is hindered by two things. The requirement to play a pregen is, in my opinion, the biggest factor working against quests in PFS right now. Players want to play their own characters. Especially if the quests are stretched out over several weeks. I don't think we've ever successfully scheduled Silverhex locally (it ran at a con a few hours away). I understand the quests that are tied to a particular book being limited to the characters from those books, but if PFS ever wants something that truly matches Encounters, then Quests need to be opened up to regular characters. People just aren't going to show up every week to play a pregen.

The other issue with quests is that there aren't enough of them yet. At the pace they're released, you couldn't sustain a 2 hour quest night once a week for more than 2 months or so (Counting only Silverhex, Phantom Phenomena, the Unchained Quest, and the two older quests, not the Beginner's Box or goblin quests, since I don't think they're available for general PFS play).

Those things being said, Paizo right now is not treating Quests like competition for Encounters. They are more a tool to promote a specific product or meant to be run as an introduction to the system at conventions. It would require a shift in the philosophy behind quests and likely additional staff to support them, if Paizo wanted them to be the equivalent of Encounters. And, I'm guessing, they might no longer be free.

Personally I think if a couple of quests a month were added to the release schedule (in addition to existing content), and people were allowed to play their own characters, they'd be more popular than the card game, and easier to schedule than full scenarios. EDIT: What I mean by this is 2 one hour quests a month, not 2 six hour blocks of quests.

On the topic of D&D 5E, I am not sure if anyone is even running Encounters or Expeditions locally. We just had our local (smallish) convention over the weekend and consistently ran 4-5 tables of PFS each slot. I can't remember seeing a table of D&D anything, though there probably was something. That either means 5E has failed to catch on locally for organized play, or that it has yet to catch on locally. Either way, I don't think it's been a major factor so far in affecting our PFS numbers. Whether it will be going forward remains to be seen.

Sczarni 4/5 RPG Superstar 2014 Top 16

Ferious Thune wrote:
The requirement to play a pregen is, in my opinion, the biggest factor working against quests in PFS right now. Players want to play their own characters. Especially if the quests are stretched out over several weeks. I don't think we've ever successfully scheduled Silverhex locally (it ran at a con a few hours away). I understand the quests that are tied to a particular book being limited to the characters from those books, but if PFS ever wants something that truly matches Encounters, then Quests need to be opened up to regular characters. People just aren't going to show up every week to play a pregen.

This. I've never actually played a quest or quest series. I have been tempted a couple of times, but the requirement to play a pregen moved the needle from "Hmm, I'll try that" to "meh".

Sovereign Court 4/5 5/5 ** Venture-Lieutenant, Netherlands—Leiden

I've toyed with the quests a bit now, but one stumbling block for me is actually completing a quest suite. I don't like getting "locked down" halfway into Phantom Phenomena or Silverhex without knowing whether I'll get an opportunity too complete it, or if I should cut my losses and play the PC in the next regular scenario.

Sovereign Court 5/5 RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8

Ascalaphus wrote:
I've toyed with the quests a bit now, but one stumbling block for me is actually completing a quest suite. I don't like getting "locked down" halfway into Phantom Phenomena or Silverhex without knowing whether I'll get an opportunity too complete it, or if I should cut my losses and play the PC in the next regular scenario.

I usually put that PC "on hold" until I've enough GM quests to make it a "full' chronicle sheet.

Sovereign Court 4/5 5/5 ** Venture-Lieutenant, Netherlands—Leiden

That was my plan too, but putting two PCs on hold simultaneously seemed a bit much.

Sovereign Court 1/5

Ferious Thune wrote:
The requirement to play a pregen is, in my opinion, the biggest factor working against quests in PFS right now. Players want to play their own characters.

Right on the money.

I love GMing quests but nothing kills the interest of potential players faster than "you HAVE to play a pregen."

Sovereign Court 4/5 5/5 ** Venture-Lieutenant, Netherlands—Leiden

I do like the idea of quests as short adventures, ideal to fill in a long break or another adventure that ran unexpectedly short. With that in mind, I'm throwing the following idea out there:

- Quests with one or more subtiers. Probably one subtier of no more than three levels wide is most practical.
- Playable with normal PCs in range.
- Written to be relatively straightforward, kind on the cold-running GM. All-included PDFs with monster stats and maps coming either from standard flipmats or easy to draw at a moment's notice.
- Encounters can be fairly tough, since they're by definition 15-minute adventuring days.
- The quests can still have arcs like Silverhex, however, unlike Silverhex, quest episodes can be interleaved with other scenarios.
- You receive your rewards when one of the following happens: completing the entire arc or by leveling out of the arc's tier. If the XP for the arc would be enough to level you out of tier, you can also cash it in at that point.

For example, if you had a L1-3 arc, and you were at 8 XP, you could cash it in, gaining 1 XP and going to L4. If you instead played something else and reached 9XP, you'd also have to cash it in, again for 1 XP.

So, you could play these quest arcs interleaved with your regular scenarios, allowing you to pick up some gameplay in odd time slots, with your own PCs and without awkward scheduling.

Shadow Lodge 4/5

I agree with all except the Rewards part.

I think that the existing Rewards/Chronicle Sheet should function, as the intent is to have them be top heavy, but add more for those that can continue to the end.

We can't assume that everyone would be able to play all parts, and if you reserve them to the end, that's probably going to cause the casual, unsure new gamer to not come back if it conflicts with their lifestyle.

I do, however, like the idea of being able to play them around other games, though.

My two biggest barriers is requiring Pregens, and also requiring the player to play each part in a row.

Silver Crusade 5/5

Honestly, the pregen requirement is one of the biggest advantages of the quest lines, in my opinion. There tends to be a large variety of players with a huge variation in system mastery, and keeping it pregen-only helps keep that gap from getting too wide.

Sovereign Court 5/5 Owner - Enchanted Grounds, President/Owner - Enchanted Grounds

Ferious Thune wrote:
Drogon: I'm sure you know this, but with regard to sales numbers as an indication of popularity, it should be expected that Pathfinder products, especially the Core Rulebook and earlier hardbacks, would have lower sales at a physical store than 5E.

I'm just popping in for a quick reply on this.

The last thing I'm going to do is debate what sales numbers should be where. If, after 25 years of retail management, I don't understand how that works, then something is dramatically wrong with my choice of professions. Happily, I'm pretty sure that my success speaks for itself.

I'll try for more detail later, but suffice to say that I know what should be selling, and how. And I'm pretty cognizant of what will negatively (or positively) impact that.

Liberty's Edge 4/5 RPG Superstar Season 9 Top 16

1 person marked this as a favorite.
Matthew Morris wrote:


More quests, more 'Gateway drugs'. More 'kid friendly' one shots. I ran Black Waters for a table of kids, and their parents took a leap of faith with the creepy undead. Yeah, they were scared, but rescuing the girl at the end gave them a sense of accomplishment. Scenarios where they end on a tangible positive note.

Absolutely 100% agree with this. I believe the free game day module should be replaced with quests. We already have gotten new quests at game day. That would take us to 2 sets per year.

Minimum, I think it should be increased to quarterly. Every other month would be better. Every month (with 4 quests per pack) would be ideal. This would take on AL head to head, is perfect for shorter attention spans (kids) and shorter game day schedules. It's bite sized to promote PFS at cons. It can be used to develop more writers. There are just so many positives to this strategy.

5/5 5/55/55/5

Quests seem like a large population area option. People aren't driving half an hour for a 1-2 hour quest.

Sovereign Court 5/5 Owner - Enchanted Grounds, President/Owner - Enchanted Grounds

1 person marked this as a favorite.
BigNorseWolf wrote:
Quests seem like a large population area option. People aren't driving half an hour for a 1-2 hour quest.

Quests are a recruiting option, I think. When you see them operate at conventions you see players dropping in and out for quick "pickup" games, be they old hats or newbies, and gravitating toward other games (or away) as a result of playing them. Encounters was expected to be a recruiting option at the store level that would operate the same way; a high population option, with young players in mind, or those who had limited time, etc. Considering how many people are playing, however, it seems to be the PREFERRED option for D&D.

In light of this information I believe Quests are being mis-evaluated and underutilized.

Liberty's Edge 4/5 RPG Superstar Season 9 Top 16

BigNorseWolf wrote:
Quests seem like a large population area option. People aren't driving half an hour for a 1-2 hour quest.

If quests are set for 1 hour each, they can come in a pack of 4, allowing you either to run all 4 at once, or break them into smaller chunks depending on the needs of the players and the limits of the gaming venue. I agree that travel is tougher. Although I also have to say that living in a couple higher population areas, that in large population areas, 30 minutes is not really considered heavy travel...it's normal. When I lived in a small town however, nobody would travel to the next town 20 minutes away, thinking it's a big hardship.

I personally would like either two hour quests, or have the ability for 2 one hour quests to equal 1 PP and .5 XP. That means no long term commitment to the quest. Players can play and get their chronicle sheets right away.

Scarab Sages 4/5

Drogon wrote:
Ferious Thune wrote:
Drogon: I'm sure you know this, but with regard to sales numbers as an indication of popularity, it should be expected that Pathfinder products, especially the Core Rulebook and earlier hardbacks, would have lower sales at a physical store than 5E.

I'm just popping in for a quick reply on this.

The last thing I'm going to do is debate what sales numbers should be where. If, after 25 years of retail management, I don't understand how that works, then something is dramatically wrong with my choice of professions. Happily, I'm pretty sure that my success speaks for itself.

I'll try for more detail later, but suffice to say that I know what should be selling, and how. And I'm pretty cognizant of what will negatively (or positively) impact that.

I'm not looking for that debate, either. I'm certain that you do know your sales numbers and when there is a problem. After I said I'm sure you know this, I should have said the rest was for the benefit of others. A direct comparison between the sales numbers of 5E physical books and Pathfinder physical books isn't necessarily the best way to evaluate which is more popular (note, popular, not profitable). How Pathfinder is selling now relative to how Pathfinder sold a year or two ago seems like a better indicator of whether or not it's becoming less popular, and I'm sure you know those numbers, too.

Your insight as a FLGS owner is extremely valuable, and it's fantastic that you've taken the time to share it. The indicators you've mentioned with regards to attendance at events and the age of the participants are very telling. The anecdotal evidence from conversations with customers is also very useful. Those kinds of things mean a lot coming from someone in your position.

I don't want you to think I was disagreeing with you or saying there isn't a problem. I just thought your statement about 5E sales blowing PF sales out of the water didn't tell the whole story. Paizo does not seem to have set their business up to treat the FLGS as the primary sales outlet for their product. By offering PDFs, subscriptions (the only way to get a physical book and pdf for a single price), and the like, it is much more convenient (and cheaper) for someone looking for PF books to go through Paizo directly. That in itself might end up being a problem, if it pushes someone in your position to favor hosting D&D events over PFS.

Anyway, I'm not looking for a debate. If you have the time and would like to elaborate on the changes you've seen in sales, that would be incredibly useful information to have. If you would rather just say, "trust me, I know what I'm talking about," I'll believe you, and I'm sure others will, too.

4/5 5/55/55/55/5 ****

... Encounters was WotC's attempt to brand a D&D day, like they successfully did with FNM (Friday Night Magic).

I noticed someone else posted a pedigree of having been in from the start... I was part of a focus/product testing group before WotC had finalised the name...

(While true... It is being included solely as a bit of friendly oneupmanship) :p

-

Back to the current discussion...

I would love to see Paizo launch an Encounters style OP option, but structured more to the 4e paradigm...

A single story arc running for 3-4 months...

Approximately 12-15 encounters that would take a character to lvl 3. And allow the character to enter PFS at the end of the Encounters season with a couple of minor magic items and potions...

The easiest way to do that would probably have a Season tracking sheet that gets traded in for a boon sheet that scales and includes a couple free or reduced cost magic items at different points on the scale and some trait-esqe boons at other points...

It isn't a fully fleshed out idea yet, but it is getting there...

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