vampires are not necessarily spell casters.
how long has this creature BEEN a vampire? every vampire you meet hasn't necessarily been that way for millennia.
vampires have limited resources as well.
One who has lived a long time, probably has seen multiple thralls and brides hunted and killed and lived to learn the lessons from it.
But not every vamp is going to be prepared or have the resources to have these things set up.
They are also limited by things like sunlight etc.
so they can't just go about doing whatever they please.
"Don't mind me, making my coffin protection scenario"
Asking for a wooden stake to work against a vampire the way it's portrayed in countless works of fiction is not that.I understand that, but once again, the efficacy of a wooden stake through a human ribcage (let alone one reinforced by undeath) is dubious, and Pathfinder is under no obligation to set the rules that particular way. Most portrayals of Dracula still required a hammer to pound the stake in, up to you (and any perfectly reasonable house rules) which brand of vampire you roll with.
A sharpened wooden stake through a human ribcage? Thats dubious?
Umm ok, you lie there while I double fist this bad boy into your chest. Don't worry, we're all reasonably sure it won't go in….. 0.o….
Honest officer, it was just to settle a dispute that a sharpened wooden stake won't go through a human rib cage,,,, Honest.
Im 100% positive…it WILL.
I've never seen or read anywhere that "undeath" reinforces your physique.
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Macho SOFs [vampire hunters] will go straight in through the breastbone, but the more sophisticated approach - as well as the more likely to be successful - is up underneath it. The notch at the bottom of the breastbone is a useful marker - so I'm told. It's still not at all easy to do. There are lots of dead people who have tried.
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Asking for a wooden stake to work against a vampire the way it's portrayed in countless works of fiction is not that.I understand that, but once again, the efficacy of a wooden stake through a human ribcage (let alone one reinforced by undeath) is dubious, and Pathfinder is under no obligation to set the rules that particular way. Most portrayals of Dracula still required a hammer to pound the stake in, up to you (and any perfectly reasonable house rules) which brand of vampire you roll with.A sharpened wooden stake through a human ribcage? Thats dubious?
Umm ok, you lie there while I double fist this bad boy into your chest. Don't worry, we're all reasonably sure it won't go in….. 0.o….
Honest officer, it was just to settle a dispute that a sharpened wooden stake won't go through a human rib cage,,,, Honest.
Im 100% positive…it WILL.
I've never seen or read anywhere that "undeath" reinforces your physique.
Seriously? That's your post? "Lemme threaten you with a weapon, that proves the weapon is perfect."
Fine, chuckles, let's work backwards. Vampire strength bonus of +6 along with a variety of "I'm tougher" defensive qualities suggest a tougher body. Common vampire tropes include punching through wooden doors with their bare hands, "steely grips" that can't be broken by really strong dudes, impossible speed that would break normal people, and shrugging off impact trauma that should shatter a human skeleton and burst human skin. Yeah, I think it's a safe call that vampires are supposed to be tougher than a human. Otherwise they'd tear themselves apart.
Double-fist a wooden stake through a human ribcage into the heart in one shot? Maybe. You'll do damage, probably deadly damage, you might even succeed if you're really lucky and if it's a thin, sharp, hardened stake. You're a lot more likely to jam up on the...
you're trying to rationalize something from your armchair.
as a former soldier, I've actually experienced real physical combat, and even lost the above mentioned eye.Had my lung and by extension rib cage, pierced by a plastic canteen in one case.
The human body is far more fragile on the defensive end than you think.
It's also far more lethal when trained properly, than most people realize.
meaning, anyone with the proper intent, will, and practice can take something like a stake and kill you with it.
the breastbone is not a very daunting obstacle.
in the cases of characters like buffy one handing the stake into vampires, if you are aware of the buffy universe, yes…she is very much physically amplified over a standard human, It's inherited mystical power, so she is supernaturally empowered (as is faith and other slayers from the TV show)
The 'Hammer the stake in" approach comes from 1800-early 1900s depictions.
The typical moderately physical human male combatant these days would be a giant among those men.
Someone actually trained in combat, with a consistent physical exercise program, like say an army ranger and you have someone who can kill people with a wooden stake, quite easily and quickly.
Factor in the standard vampire tropes of being killed/incapacitated by things don't don't even remotely harm a normal human (silver, running water, garlic, holy symbols/holy water, sunlight) and the fact that being staked is ALSO listed among these vampire weaknesses and one can easily summate, a vampire is weaker than a normal human when it comes to any and all of these things.
Why? because THESE are his weaknesses, compared to things listed as his strengths, like super speed, strength etc.
so you can't list his strengths as reasons why his weaknesses are not actually weaknesses and it would be really hard to accomplish.
Or we would have to sit here and try to rationalize how his super strength, speed and the fact he doesn't need to breathe totally negate his susceptibility to running water.
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Asking for a wooden stake to work against a vampire the way it's portrayed in countless works of fiction is not that.I understand that, but once again, the efficacy of a wooden stake through a human ribcage (let alone one reinforced by undeath) is dubious, and Pathfinder is under no obligation to set the rules that particular way. Most portrayals of Dracula still required a hammer to pound the stake in, up to you (and any perfectly reasonable house rules) which brand of vampire you roll with.
I was all fired up to make a 18 strength behind a well crafted sharp wooden stake will bust through a ribcage like butter argument, but Pendagast said it all better than I could have.
I'll only add that pointing repeatedly towards a web comic (and not a very funny one at that) while trying to make a "this would never realistically work" argument does absolutely nothing to strengthen your position.
- Torger
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The comic didn't make it's point well, but to be fair Buffy did have a few instances of vampires being staked with pencils. One of which was wielded by the decidedly not superpowered Dawn.
Personally, I think for staking a vampire in combat to be exciting, it has to be hard. If your average first level warrior can walk up to a vampire and stake it in the heart, vampires aren't going to be scary - and staking one like this won't be an achievement. This is from a storytelling POV separate from the question of whether a that warrior realistically would be able to drive a stake through a normal person's breastbone.
Now, PF actually has a called-shots mechanic that I just found, albeit as an optional variant. A shot to the heart takes a -10 penalty. A basic vampire has at least a +2 Dex bonus, +1 dodge bonus, and +6 natural armour, for a naked AC of 19. An attack roll of at least 29 is necessary to stake one in the heart (and potentially much higher if they're wearing protective items). So that's plain impossible without at least +9 to hit - unlikely unless you're a mid to high level martial.
Note also:
If the hit isn't either a critical hit or a debilitating blow, the attempt fails and is just a normal hit.
So you can't auto-succeed on your called shot on a Nat 20; if you don't confirm, there's no effect.
And OH LOOK
A critical hit to the heart against a vampire made with a piercing weapon composed entirely of wood leaves the vampire impaled through the heart by the weapon if it fails its Fortitude save.
(earlier: Saving Throws: If a saving throw is allowed on a called shot, the DC is equal to the Armor Class hit by the attack. In the case of an attack roll of a natural 20, the DC is the AC the attack would have hit if 20s did not automatically hit.)
So, to stake a vampire, you can either grapple like a boss, be a crit-fisher preferably with an ironwood rapier, or be a decent fighter and get lucky.
Actually, on the subject, would an iron breastplate render a vampire immune to the called shot, since realistically there ain't no way your WOODEN stake is punching through an iron breastplate?
"People whose lives much more physical lives were weaker and less strong than normal high school students today." I get that you want to make a point about maybe the scholar Van Helsing was not a body-building soldier but you are still overstating things severely.
Yes that would be a reasonable reason for my fighter to be unable to stake him, funny how they rarely seem to wear armor though.
Could classic, from the original Bram Stokers Dracula, Van Helsing have staked a vampire mid combat, probably not but who cares. Shy of overwhelming empirical data to the contrary (fun fact you've supplied none, just a web comic and a bunch of unsupported statements) you will NOT convince me that a fighter who's been maxing his strength (as any good fighter should be) is completely incapable of doing so.
Finally arbitrary head cannon has nothing to do with it. Every single reasonably modern source clear defines wooden stake through the heart as a weakness of vampires. The only argument at present is can a human exert enough force to do it in the middle of a fight.
- Torger
Sorry, physics and the history of weapons don't back you up.
Actually it has to do with neither, rather the supernatural folklore surrounding vampires, includes among other things staking a vampire through the heart with a wooden stake. One could argue using an iron stake would be more physically possible, according vampire legend only a wooden stake does the trick. Its got nothing to do with physics or the history of weapons, and only to do with vampire legend.
Actually, on the subject, would an iron breastplate render a vampire immune to the called shot, since realistically there ain't no way your WOODEN stake is punching through an iron breastplate?
I know that D&D/PF tries to use the wooden stake trope in combat, but according to vampire legend, staking them in place only works when the vampire is "asleep" in his coffin. So, no you cannot punch through iron breastplate. But if it's daytime, the vampire is in an undead "coma", so remove his breastplate, expose the chest unprotected and stake em. That works fine.
In original vampire lore staking them does not kill them, rather it paralyzes them so they won't move, while you're trying to kill them - either with sunlight exposure, or chopping their head off.
How modern vampire movies and TV series replace how to kill a vampire with new ways are questions to ask the writers of those shows. Apparently vampire legends don't matter - they are rewriting the rules as it applies to their fictional universes.
Stuff about the called shot system.
Right, assuming the DM is running the optional called shot system from Ultimate combat then there's no reason it shouldn't work.
I've never seen a DM use or allow those rules, and personaly, while I would absolutely love a good called shot system, I don't think that's the one for me.
Good catch though, assuming they're in play that should totally work.
- Torger
P.S. called shot to the heart with a bow or crossbow should also do the job just fine.
I know that D&D/PF tries to use the wooden stake trope in combat, but according to vampire legend, staking them in place only works when the vampire is "asleep" in his coffin. So, no you cannot punch through iron breastplate. But if it's daytime, the vampire is in an undead "coma", so remove his breastplate, expose the chest unprotected and stake em. That works fine.
In original vampire lore staking them does not kill them, rather it paralyzes them so they won't move, while you're trying to kill them - either with sunlight exposure, or chopping their head off.
How modern vampire movies and TV series replace how to kill a vampire with new ways are questions to ask the writers of those shows. Apparently vampire legends don't matter - they are rewriting the rules as it applies to their fictional universes.
If we're going into full old school folk-lore mode on the subject then here's what a quick and dirty Wikipedia search has to say on the subject.
Methods of destroying suspected vampires varied, with staking the most commonly cited method, particularly in southern Slavic cultures.Ash was the preferred wood in Russia and the Baltic states, or hawthorn in Serbia, with a record of oak in Silesia. Potential vampires were most often staked through the heart, though the mouth was targeted in Russia and northern Germany and the stomach in north-eastern Serbia. Piercing the skin of the chest was a way of "deflating" the bloated vampire; this is similar to the act of burying sharp objects, such as sickles, in with the corpse, so that they may penetrate the skin if the body bloats sufficiently while transforming into a revenant. Decapitation was the preferred method in German and western Slavic areas, with the head buried between the feet, behind the buttocks or away from the body. This act was seen as a way of hastening the departure of the soul, which in some cultures, was said to linger in the corpse. The vampire's head, body, or clothes could also be spiked and pinned to the earth to prevent rising. Romani drove steel or iron needles into a corpse's heart and placed bits of steel in the mouth, over the eyes, ears and between the fingers at the time of burial. They also placed hawthorn in the corpse's sock or drove a hawthorn stake through the legs. In a 16th-century burial near Venice, a brick forced into the mouth of a female corpse has been interpreted as a vampire-slaying ritual by the archaeologists who discovered it in 2006. Further measures included pouring boiling water over the grave or complete incineration of the body. In the Balkans, a vampire could also be killed by being shot or drowned, by repeating the funeral service, by sprinkling holy water on the body, or by exorcism. In Romania, garlic could be placed in the mouth, and as recently as the 19th century, the precaution of shooting a bullet through the coffin was taken. For resistant cases, the body was dismembered and the pieces burned, mixed with water, and administered to family members as a cure. In Saxon regions of Germany, a lemon was placed in the mouth of suspected vampires. In Bulgaria, over 100 skeletons with metal objects, such as plough bits, embedded in the torso have been discovered.
TLDR - It's all over the map, and I don't see anything about must be tranced in his coffin at the time (which makes sense because the people they were staking at the time would have been regular old people).
So I feel like we kinda have to revert to our modern "legends" on the subject. Which is to say stake through the heartt is one of their weaknesses. Does it outright kill them or does it incapacitate them making killing much easier? I feel like either are fairly well entrenched as possibilities.
IMHO the whole must be in his coffin at the time thing probably came about because that's how they did it in Bram Stoker's. Not because it's required. YMMV
and to bring it back to pathfinder, the game does not state that they have to be in their coffin to be staked, it does however state that they must be helpless, and that for me is where it stumbles.
- Torger
Which, until the mid-90s, involved a hammer. That was my point. The physics question is simply to dismiss any illusion that "realism" will support the would-be Slayer when trying to argue in favor of a house-rule.
You can roll "made of Plasticine" trope if you want, but there is no logical or rhetorical reason compelling anyone ELSE to be so obliged, unless they wish it.
As for called shots...it's one of those tempting and distantly-desired ideas that has great difficulty when you try to implement it. It is SO easy to end up with rules that can perma-screw a character or anti-climax what was supposed to be a really epic fight. Or the rules are so vague and watered-down there's a question why you bothered, in way Vital Strike is a "called shot" (turn your attack into a critical hit) but darned if anyone actually likes it.
I'm pretty sure that's a LITTLE Bram Stoker's and a LOT "We don't like insta-kill attacks taking out our badass high-level NPC vampires." Most save-or-die spells are already the stuff of editions past (no comments on if that's good/bad, please) and having a non-removable self-destruct button on what is ostensibly a more powerful and dangerous foe is poor planning for game rules. Unless you WANT Vampires to be the new Zombies...
You think the physics of a big burly fighter busting through a ribcage using a sharp wooden stake are unrealistic, I and others here don't believe that to be the case, and without actual evidence (which so far has been anecdotal at best from both sides) neither of us is going to change the mind of the other.
I'm not saying it has to be modeled as a one hit kill end the fight type thing (though that would certainly do it). Off the top of my head, killing blow dealt with a wooden stake is presumed to pierce the heart and either kills it outright or prevents the mist transformation.
As to the benefits and drawbacks of called shot systems there are definitely both and it's a delicate balance. I've played in a different system with one that worked beautifully, sadly it doesn't translate well to the nature of pathfinder combat. I also like quick and deadly combat, I get that others don't.
- Torger
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TLDR - It's all over the map, and I don't see anything about must be tranced in his coffin at the time (which makes sense because the people they were staking at the time would have been regular old people).
You mean regular corpses. That had been buried. And now were suspected of feeding on family members in the night.
IMHO the whole must be in his coffin at the time thing probably came about because that's how they did it in Bram Stoker's. Not because it's required. YMMV
I think that's how they did it in Dracula because that's how they did it IRL because frightened and superstitious villagers don't want to try and fight an awake vampire - even if they were to find an awake vampire to fight.
Staking a vampire in combat probably came about around the time that someone decided you (or rather, a skilled and/or superpowered vampire hunter) should be able to kill a vampire in combat, and not just hold them off until you can find the coffin and mutilate the corpse.
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Oh, here's another option: Disruption Weapons. Since the struck undead must make a Will save or be destroyed, it bypasses the turn to mist defense.
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Which, until the mid-90s, involved a hammer. That was my point. The physics question is simply to dismiss any illusion that "realism" will support the would-be Slayer when trying to argue in favor of a house-rule.
You can roll "made of Plasticine" trope if you want, but there is no logical or rhetorical reason compelling anyone ELSE to be so obliged, unless they wish it.
As for called shots...it's one of those tempting and distantly-desired ideas that has great difficulty when you try to implement it. It is SO easy to end up with rules that can perma-screw a character or anti-climax what was supposed to be a really epic fight. Or the rules are so vague and watered-down there's a question why you bothered, in way Vital Strike is a "called shot" (turn your attack into a critical hit) but darned if anyone actually likes it.
I'm pretty sure that's a LITTLE Bram Stoker's and a LOT "We don't like insta-kill attacks taking out our badass high-level NPC vampires." Most save-or-die spells are already the stuff of editions past (no comments on if that's good/bad, please) and having a non-removable self-destruct button on what is ostensibly a more powerful and dangerous foe is poor planning for game rules. Unless you WANT Vampires to be the new Zombies...
You think the physics of a big burly fighter busting through a ribcage using a sharp wooden stake are unrealistic, I and others here don't believe that to be the case, and without actual evidence (which so far has been anecdotal at best from both sides) neither of us is going to change the mind of the other.
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this has been my actual point.
The PF/DnD fighter type is going to have way more physical capability than a modern "bad ass", all the while the modern bad ass is a gorilla compared to 1800s 'vampire hunters'.
If a RL human male in medium condition can do it.
Valeros is going to have no problem.
But just so we are clear… this is the ACTUAL entry required to stake a vampire in PF:
Driving a wooden stake through a helpless vampire's heart instantly slays it (this is a full-round action). However, it returns to life if the stake is removed, unless the head is also severed and anointed with holy water.
notice is says "Helpless". When reading the helpless entry, the requirements break dow to the same requirements a coup de grace has on a living creature.
so basically, in PF If a vampire that's awake and fighting doesn't want to be staked, you can't do it.
now, just so we are also clear, here are the racial/template bonuses to being a vampire:
Str +6, Dex +4, Int +2, Wis +2, Cha +4.
So jo bob the commoner, turned into a vampire, makes him
Str 16, dex 14, Con 0 Int 12 wis 12 Cha 14.
Not EVERY vampire is a beast, it all depends on the chassis they were sporting before they were a vampire.
the rank and file vamps getting staked left and right in "buffy" adventures, were mall rats turned vampires.
hardly the stuff of legends.
they'll have around 10 hp.
its their DR and fast heal if anything that make them the most formidable.
other than that, they'd be as difficult to wrestle down and stake as a first level fighter.
Oh, here's another option: Disruption Weapons. Since the struck undead must make a Will save or be destroyed, it bypasses the turn to mist defense.
Which of course means that the spell disrupting weapon
http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/d/disrupting-weapon
would also get the job done, and with a much higher save as well.
- Torger
now, just so we are also clear, here are the racial/template bonuses to being a vampire:
Str +6, Dex +4, Int +2, Wis +2, Cha +4.So jo bob the commoner, turned into a vampire, makes him
Str 16, dex 14, Con 0 Int 12 wis 12 Cha 14.Not EVERY vampire is a beast, it all depends on the chassis they were sporting before they were a vampire.
the rank and file vamps getting staked left and right in "buffy" adventures, were mall rats turned vampires.
hardly the stuff of legends.
they'll have around 10 hp.its their DR and fast heal if anything that make them the most formidable.
other than that, they'd be as difficult to wrestle down and stake as a first level fighter.
Indeed, very well put. We're in complete agreement.
Though in all fairness them getting "staked" with a pencil is still pretty silly.
- Torger
now, just so we are also clear, here are the racial/template bonuses to being a vampire:
Str +6, Dex +4, Int +2, Wis +2, Cha +4.So jo bob the commoner, turned into a vampire, makes him
Str 16, dex 14, Con 0 Int 12 wis 12 Cha 14.Not EVERY vampire is a beast, it all depends on the chassis they were sporting before they were a vampire.
the rank and file vamps getting staked left and right in "buffy" adventures, were mall rats turned vampires.
hardly the stuff of legends.
they'll have around 10 hp.its their DR and fast heal if anything that make them the most formidable.
other than that, they'd be as difficult to wrestle down and stake as a first level fighter.
Indeed, very well put. We're in complete agreement.
Though in all fairness them getting "staked" with a pencil is still pretty silly.
- Torger
well "buffy the vampire slayer" was silly. The whole entire premise of the show.
however, the pencil is a wooden stake, and "stake" itself isn't defined by size/dimension.
However one may wonder who they got the pencil to actually reach the heart? Especially since more than half of it is in the fist.
I did once see a woman who had been killed with a disposable bic pen.
I wasn't there for the actual deed, personally, but I did see the body with the pen still impaled in her eye.
so odd things are possible.
So, basically, you are wanting a way for a martial character to kill a vampire? And you're assuming the vampire has made a coffin that is not practical for the martial characters to get to by the time it can regenerate?
Assuming the martials can afford a 9,000gp decanter of endless water, they could probably get flowing water to run across the coffin by simply commanding it to geyser on the coffin. I think that would count for sufficient flowing water.
Dispel Evil is an amazing spell for vampires. It won't kill them but it really helps .
What effect does it have?
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I believe the heartstake's rider is intended to be an exception to the usual DR rule since otherwise it doesn't function reliably against its intended target.
However, versatile weapon will fix the "not silver" issue nicely, as would a paladin smiting.
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A couple other things I came across that piqued my interest:
1) Disruption weapons. Does a ______ of disruption kill a vampire outright if it fails its save (granted, it has a 1/20 chance of failing it most likely . . .) Disruption says it 'destroys' undead, not reduce them to 0 HP, so it seems like Mr. Vampire doesn't get a chance to turn into mist form.
2) Similar to 1, does a vorpal weapon kill a vampire instantly? The description specifically calls out vampires as being vulnerable to the vorpal weapon in the text, AND it says if you crit they are 'killed,' not 'reduced to 0 HP' so it seems like that would work as well.
3)Last question: If a vampire is in mist form, and you hit it with sunbeam . . . what happens? The spell says " In addition, the beam results in the destruction of any undead creature specifically harmed by bright light if it fails its save." And while the vampire is immune to damage in mist form, he can still be forced to make saving throws . . . and he is still a creature that is harmed by sunlight . . . so does that take care of him?
the wooden stake, in general as defined as a vampire weakness, over rides/by passes his DR.
BUT, it has to be used when he is pinned/helpless.
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Greetings, fellow pathfinders
I offer you my suggestions.
First, you are all facing the topic by an odd angle. A vampire is not a race, but a curse/disesase. Therefore, it must be regarded as such. Also, this curse should interact in different ways with any races, providing different powers and, therefore, different weaknesses.
Therefore, i suggest that each vampire worth of this name should be considerate an unique being, with different weaknesees bounded by his history. Let's take hammer's dracula, for example. In the many movies we have seen him staked, burned by sunlight, burned by cross, almost killed by silver bullets and paralyzed by being in a plant of thorns (which signified the crown of thorns worn by Jesus); e was also stroke by lightning, being burned alive, ecc ...
All of this did not perma-kill this Dracula, but simply reduced him to a corpse or to dust until blood was spilled on the remains again.
We have therefore to distinguish between ways to incapacitate or momentarely kill a vampire and ways to perma kill them.
Now, how do we perma-kill a vampire? Here's my steps.
1) Make researches on the guy/lady/thing: know your enemy and his history! If your vampire is a force to fear, he has an history of blood you can take advanted of to know him.
2) After gaining insight throught the mundane ways, it's time to mystical communion with the powers of heaven or hell to divine wathever ritual is needed to permanently destroy the abomination. If no special ritual is offered, then proceed to step three.
3) with the knowledge gained, you can use either method you know to kill the vampire. the best ways to do so are:
a) killing him in battle, find his coffin (or equivalent resting place), and start a burial ritual.
If the vampire rises again during the process, good! you can put him down again.
If the vampire shows to have multiple coffins, it is necessary to reduce the number to one before starting.
b) Take whatever holy substance you have and stroke in into the vampire corpse: holy nails, stakes, holy coins, holy symbols, holy texture. be sure to NOT pierce his heart of cut his head while doing this. why? cause the vampire evil soul is, still, tecnically there, and until you destroy his body he cannot leave it. so you have the chance to weaken him further, keeping im inside by force by surronding the coffin with religious icons
c) start the ritual, using copious amounts of holy water but only on non vital part of the vampire (hands, legs), while continually calling him by name, asking him to leave the body and proceed in the next lve.
d) after the ritual ending, cast holy magic on the corpse (hallow? or consecrate, then gentle rest), then pull holy water directly into his mount and heart cavity until is full. After that, put holy berries in it.
e) Now, the difficult part: leave the vampire corpse in such state for 11 days, with someone (at least 5 people) alwas watching it. If for that period nothing happens, proceeds to steep f. If the vampire even move a finger, repeat steeps from 2 to five.
f) If the vampire didn't move or talk for 11 days, it's finally gone! Burn the body, take the ashes into an holy urn and put that inside the tomb of a paladin, possibly underwater.
If possible, put the in a jar of at least 600 mo of worth, then planar ally an hound archon, ask him to create a permanent torch, the give him the urn as a payment, with the reccomandation to throw the ashes on the rivers of heaven.
If the above instructions do not work, you have got a mythic vampire! For perma-kill them, the best way is take them on a demiplane of your creation, then move it on the positive energy plane, then dispel it.
After that, repeat process from 3 to 5.