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Okay, so, what if you need to kill a vampire that's down in his lair and isn't going outside any time soon? And what if you don't have holy water, and want to make sure that the wooden stake doesn't fall out 100 years from now? Here are a few questions we posed on how to kill one. Do these work? All of these involve reducing the vampire to 0 HP beforehand and having it in its coffin.
1) Death by submerging. Tip the Vampire's coffin so that it is at an angle (10 degrees or thereabouts). Cast create water into the coffin so that it is filled. Cast create water into a large urn (vampire lairs always have urns, it seems, and gently pour the water at the up end of the coffin so that the water is now sloshing out at the bottom. Technically, this is flowing water. Keep casting create water in the urn every round for three rounds.
2) Death by Ambrosia. The book says that Ambrosia, which is an alchemical creation and NOT holy water "Affects undead as holy water." If you chop off a vampire's head and anoint it with ambrosia, does that count?
3) Death by no coffin. Probably the easiest, if you kill a vampire and find his coffin, stake him (temporarily) and then remove him from the coffin. Then smash the ever-loving crap outta the thing until it is teeny tiny pieces. His coffin no longer exists, so he can't return to it in gaseous form, and is utterly destroyed within 2 hours.
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Running water is traditionally free flowing natural water like a river or stream. Pouring water from an urn or other container would not work. Moving the water does not make it free flowing or you could dump a vampire in a bath tub and pull the plug.
Ambrosia should work. It says it affects undead and evil outsiders as if it were holy water. Considering it cost x4 the cost of holy water I don’t see a problem with this.
Destroying the coffin will work as long as the vampire does not have any other coffins. Dracula had around 30 in the book.
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Pathfinder currently has four vampire types: Moroi (think Dracula), Nosferatu (Think Dracula in the first part of the movie), Jiang-Shi (Chinese version) and Vetala (Indian version).
Moroi and Nosferatu are held at bay by mirrors and garlic, and can be permanently destroyed by flowing water, sunlight, or staking through the heart followed by removal of the head and anointing of holy water.
Jiang Shi are held at bay by mirrors, ringing handbells, and cooked rice. When Jiang-Shi reach 0 HP they collapse into a pile of dust. They can be destroyed permanently by either scattering this dust or mixing rice and holy water with the dust. Sunlight does not destroy a Jiang-Shi.
Vetala regularly possess others, including the corpses of others. They are held at bay by the prayers of those faithful to good gods. Prayers of those who worship non-good gods or none at all have no effect. They are destroyed when given proper funerary rites. This includes being buried while anointed with holy water or recieving the spell "bless" or "prayer" or something similar, or by being buried in an area under the effect of "consecrate".
Now go buy the "Blood of the Night" Player Companion where I got all this information from. It also has some nice stuff for people who like to play Dhampirs. :D
Did you know that you have a vampire as an enemy ? If yes then you are not well prepared because holy water is a must. Use the spell 'Bless Water' and create holy water if you have open spell slots or time to rest.
Another idea can be a stake to the vampires heart followed by cuting of the the head. Then hide the staked body of the vampire and take the head with you. Use holy water on the head as soon as possible.
Dispel Evil is an amazing spell for vampires. It won't kill them but it really helps .
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Did you know that you have a vampire as an enemy ? If yes then you are not well prepared because holy water is a must. Use the spell 'Bless Water' and create holy water if you have open spell slots or time to rest.
Another idea can be a stake to the vampires heart followed by cuting of the the head. Then hide the staked body of the vampire and take the head with you. Use holy water on the head as soon as possible.
This was for alternate ways of killing a vampire without holy water or sunlight. I can't count the number of times that I've had a party just happen upon a vampire in an ancient crypt or whatever and we didn't happen to have any holy water on us. Oh, and we either didn't have a cleric, they didn't have bless water memorized, and/or they didn't have 25gp worth of silver dust to make more on them.
Any group of adventures that is high enough level to deal with a vampire should have properly equipped itself. Grab a bag of holding or a handy haversack and fill it up with a bunch of equipment. This is where you put alchemical weapons, climbing kits, various tools, and anything else you think may come in handy. Spare weapons and extra ammo should also be included.
This is just common sense like a modern day soldier making sure he has his full pack before leaving on a patrol. I can understand that there may be sometimes you don’t have you pack with you, but if you are wandering so far away from anything that you can’t even take a body out to sunlight you should have your equipment.
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Any group of adventures that is high enough level to deal with a vampire should have properly equipped itself. Grab a bag of holding or a handy haversack and fill it up with a bunch of equipment. This is where you put alchemical weapons, climbing kits, various tools, and anything else you think may come in handy. Spare weapons and extra ammo should also be included.
This is just common sense like a modern day soldier making sure he has his full pack before leaving on a patrol. I can understand that there may be sometimes you don’t have you pack with you, but if you are wandering so far away from anything that you can’t even take a body out to sunlight you should have your equipment.
It's been my experience that PCs created at first level and played up in level will always have this taken care of. PCs created at high level, not so much.
My question has always been mechanically how do you get the stake through the heart?
Since pathfinder has no called shot or hit location system one assumes the vampire would have to be helpless to get staked.
But how does one make a vampire helpless? The standard method of beat the crap out of it till it goes down is no good because the vampire will just turn to mist. At this point you try and follow the mist back to the coffin sure but if the vampire is smart his coffin is somewhere that only mist can likely get to.
I'm genuinely curious if there's an existing mechanical system to either render a vampire helpless or to stake him through the heart without rendering him helpless.
- Torger
My question has always been mechanically how do you get the stake through the heart?
Since pathfinder has no called shot or hit location system one assumes the vampire would have to be helpless to get staked.
But how does one make a vampire helpless? The standard method of beat the crap out of it till it goes down is no good because the vampire will just turn to mist. At this point you try and follow the mist back to the coffin sure but if the vampire is smart his coffin is somewhere that only mist can likely get to.
I'm genuinely curious if there's an existing mechanical system to either render a vampire helpless or to stake him through the heart without rendering him helpless.
- Torger
Best answer I have is spells like Halt (Hold?) and Control Undead.
Best answer I have is spells like Halt (Hold?) and Control Undead.My question has always been mechanically how do you get the stake through the heart?
Since pathfinder has no called shot or hit location system one assumes the vampire would have to be helpless to get staked.
But how does one make a vampire helpless? The standard method of beat the crap out of it till it goes down is no good because the vampire will just turn to mist. At this point you try and follow the mist back to the coffin sure but if the vampire is smart his coffin is somewhere that only mist can likely get to.
I'm genuinely curious if there's an existing mechanical system to either render a vampire helpless or to stake him through the heart without rendering him helpless.
- Torger
Fair enough, Hold Monster should get the job done.
But let's take a step back from actual magic for a second. What of a person with no actual magical ability who never the less hunts vampires, like say Van Helsing or *shudder* Buffy. I feel like if you want to make a character in that vein the system fails you.
- Torger
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Best answer I have is spells like Halt (Hold?) and Control Undead.My question has always been mechanically how do you get the stake through the heart?
Since pathfinder has no called shot or hit location system one assumes the vampire would have to be helpless to get staked.
But how does one make a vampire helpless? The standard method of beat the crap out of it till it goes down is no good because the vampire will just turn to mist. At this point you try and follow the mist back to the coffin sure but if the vampire is smart his coffin is somewhere that only mist can likely get to.
I'm genuinely curious if there's an existing mechanical system to either render a vampire helpless or to stake him through the heart without rendering him helpless.
- Torger
I think you are supposed to stake them in their coffin.
As for "always be stocked with X," that's a nice sentiment, but there are a lot of mitigating factors. What if your party hasn't been back to town in a while? What if you forget one of the multitude of things you are supposed to have? (antitoxin, antivenom, holy water, ambrosia, smelling salts, buoyant balloons, that alchemical con damage healing salve, special Elven, Halfling, and dwarven rations, it's a lot to remember.). Plus, there's always the chance that your PCs will act like a bunch of PCs and sink all their money into weapons and armor, and you are lucky if they remember to buy food, let alone all that other stuff. There is a reason there is the term 'Murder Hobo.'
Best answer I have is spells like Halt (Hold?) and Control Undead.My question has always been mechanically how do you get the stake through the heart?
Since pathfinder has no called shot or hit location system one assumes the vampire would have to be helpless to get staked.
But how does one make a vampire helpless? The standard method of beat the crap out of it till it goes down is no good because the vampire will just turn to mist. At this point you try and follow the mist back to the coffin sure but if the vampire is smart his coffin is somewhere that only mist can likely get to.
I'm genuinely curious if there's an existing mechanical system to either render a vampire helpless or to stake him through the heart without rendering him helpless.
- Torger
Fair enough, Hold Monster should get the job done.
Forget I said that
Quoted from the hold monster spell.
"This spell functions like hold person, except that it affects any living creature that fails its Will save."
I think you are supposed to stake them in their coffin.
Which means they always have an emergency out back to their well fortified base of operations... awesome. Heaven forbid you were trying to sneak in there... that plans shot to hell now.
That while helpless thing is such a tantalizing tease, it seems like a way to prevent that from happening but in reality there's basically no way to pull it off.
Unless I'm wrong.
- Torger
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I think you are supposed to stake them in their coffin.
Which means they always have an emergency out back to their well fortified base of operations... awesome. Heaven forbid you were trying to sneak in there... that plans shot to hell now.
That while helpless thing is such a tantalizing tease, it seems like a way to prevent that from happening but in reality there's basically no way to pull it off.
Unless I'm wrong.
- Torger
Well, if they are away from their home base, you could always cast wall of stone and box their gaseous form in it for two hours. That kills 'em.
I think the stake through the heart thing is supposed to represent the old 'van helsing' thing, where you track them back to their castle while they're sleeping during the day and give them a good staking. I don't think it is supposed to be used as an 'in combat' thing.
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From your post it sounds like you're talking about an already staked vampire. Mechanically speaking Ambrosia should work fine, it affects as holy water so snicker snack with it head and anoint away.
The running water is up to the GM. For me (as a GM), while clever, method one kinda comes across as a cop out to actually finding a real source of running water. So I probably wouldn't let it fly. I mean with that logic you could argue that standing on a ledge and peeing on a Vampire could count a running water. Ok Pee might not count as "Water" so substitute "peeing" with "emptying your waterskin". If the Vampire is already staked then just drag his butt to the nearest river. Or if the river is too far away then wait until sunrise.
In regards to the Coffin... as others have said, no Vampire worth his/her salt is only going to have one. Also since they can assume Gaseous Form at will why would they ever keep one where you could get to it in the first place. The worse Vampire I have faced kept several back up coffins buried behind or beneath barriers that only a gas could pass through. And all these barriers were of sufficient thickness that by the time you tunneled through them he would have completely regenerated.
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Smart vampires always have a thick region of porous stone around their coffin. E.g. gas can move through it, but adventurers can not. To get to the coffin the PCs must tunnel through 100' of soft, porous rock. By that time, the vampire is back to full strength. Another approach is to drill lots of tiny holes through the rock to the coffin chamber. There are various ways a well prepared, competent vampire can do this.
This makes vampires nearly impossible to destroy, even for powerful, high level spellcasting adventurers.
The OP has a great question. Sometimes there is NO WAY to destroy a smart, well prepared vampire. They are over-powered, IMHO.
Best answer I have is spells like Halt (Hold?) and Control Undead.My question has always been mechanically how do you get the stake through the heart?
Since pathfinder has no called shot or hit location system one assumes the vampire would have to be helpless to get staked.
But how does one make a vampire helpless? The standard method of beat the crap out of it till it goes down is no good because the vampire will just turn to mist. At this point you try and follow the mist back to the coffin sure but if the vampire is smart his coffin is somewhere that only mist can likely get to.
I'm genuinely curious if there's an existing mechanical system to either render a vampire helpless or to stake him through the heart without rendering him helpless.
- Torger
Fair enough, Hold Monster should get the job done.
Forget I said that
Quoted from the hold monster spell.
"This spell functions like hold person, except that it affects any living creature that fails its Will save."
Yeah, scrap Control Undead too since it's broken if you attack them. Halt Undead should do the trick, though.
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Smart vampires always have a thick region of porous stone around their coffin. E.g. gas can move through it, but adventurers can not. To get to the coffin the PCs must tunnel through 100' of soft, porous rock. By that time, the vampire is back to full strength. Another approach is to drill lots of tiny holes through the rock to the coffin chamber. There are various ways a well prepared, competent vampire can do this.
This makes vampires nearly impossible to destroy, even for powerful, high level spellcasting adventurers.
The OP has a great question. Sometimes there is NO WAY to destroy a smart, well prepared vampire. They are over-powered, IMHO.
We had that backfire on a vampire before. Sort of. We found a vampire on a ship with a stone coffin with small holes and no other way to open it. So after we beat him, we stone shaped the holes closed and dumped it into the ocean. Good luck being trapped on the bottom of the ocean for all eternity, jerkoff.
"If reduced to 0 hit points in combat, a vampire assumes gaseous form (see below) and attempts to escape. It must reach its coffin home within 2 hours or be utterly destroyed. (It can normally travel up to 9 miles in 2 hours.) Additional damage dealt to a vampire forced into gaseous form has no effect. Once at rest, the vampire is helpless. It regains 1 hit point after 1 hour, then is no longer helpless and resumes healing at the rate of 5 hit points per round."Beat him down in his home office, kill him far away from his coffin, or just follow the gas cloud (base speed of 20) back to whatever coffin he's using. It also means your average vamp can't travel without severe preparations or "working without a net" because their escape hatch isn't effective.
I had indeed missed that 9 miles in 2 hours bit, that's good information to have. Creates an effective kill radius and that's useful for sure.
- Torger
Yeah, scrap Control Undead too since it's broken if you attack them. Halt Undead should do the trick, though.
Not sure I've ever seen that spell before, good find ^_^
- Torger
I think the stake through the heart thing is supposed to represent the old 'van helsing' thing, where you track them back to their castle while they're sleeping during the day and give them a good staking. I don't think it is supposed to be used as an 'in combat' thing.
I get that, but it feels like it should be possible, not easy by any stretch, just possible.
- Torger
Smart vampires always have a thick region of porous stone around their coffin. E.g. gas can move through it, but adventurers can not. To get to the coffin the PCs must tunnel through 100' of soft, porous rock. By that time, the vampire is back to full strength. Another approach is to drill lots of tiny holes through the rock to the coffin chamber. There are various ways a well prepared, competent vampire can do this.
This makes vampires nearly impossible to destroy, even for powerful, high level spellcasting adventurers.
The OP has a great question. Sometimes there is NO WAY to destroy a smart, well prepared vampire. They are over-powered, IMHO.
This is exactly what I'm talking about. If you can kill a vampire or not mostly comes down to does the DM want you to.
- Torger
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My question has always been mechanically how do you get the stake through the heart?
Since pathfinder has no called shot or hit location system one assumes the vampire would have to be helpless to get staked.
But how does one make a vampire helpless? The standard method of beat the crap out of it till it goes down is no good because the vampire will just turn to mist. At this point you try and follow the mist back to the coffin sure but if the vampire is smart his coffin is somewhere that only mist can likely get to.
I'm genuinely curious if there's an existing mechanical system to either render a vampire helpless or to stake him through the heart without rendering him helpless.
- Torger
Grapple, pin, tie up. A bound character is considered helpless.
Grapple, pin, tie up. A bound character is considered helpless.My question has always been mechanically how do you get the stake through the heart?
Since pathfinder has no called shot or hit location system one assumes the vampire would have to be helpless to get staked.
But how does one make a vampire helpless? The standard method of beat the crap out of it till it goes down is no good because the vampire will just turn to mist. At this point you try and follow the mist back to the coffin sure but if the vampire is smart his coffin is somewhere that only mist can likely get to.
I'm genuinely curious if there's an existing mechanical system to either render a vampire helpless or to stake him through the heart without rendering him helpless.
- Torger
If you can show me a way to do all that before the vampire has the opportunity to mist I'd be interested.
- Torger
But maybe you want a non-magic solution because the DM stuck you in a no-magic campaign
Nope, I want a no magic solution because I genuinely enjoy playing no magic characters in a magical setting as do several of my players. Sometimes it's fun to play batman in the justice league, and this feels like a problem that should have a non magical solution.
- Torger
P.S. No magic character defined as a character with no personal magical powers either inherent or learned.
If you're going to keep moving the goalposts everytime someone comes up with an answer, what's the point of the question? Vampire is a template that's fully explained in the bestiary, or the PRD as to what it's bonuses and it's vulnerabilities are. Vampires aren't liches... if you find a way to kill it, it stays dead.You can't just drag the staked corpse outside in the sun?These were options for if that wasn't going to work, like, I dunno, his friends will be back in a bit and you don't have time to drag a 200 pound corpse all the way back through the deathtrap-riddled dungeon.
..In it's coffin.
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Grapple, pin, tie up. A bound character is considered helpless.If you can show me a way to do all that before the vampire has the opportunity to mist I'd be interested.
- Torger
Two feats: Greater Grapple and Rapid Grappler.
Benefit: You receive a +2 bonus on checks made to grapple a foe. This bonus stacks with the bonus granted by Improved Grapple. Once you have grappled a creature, maintaining the grapple is a move action. This feat allows you to make two grapple checks each round (to move, harm, or pin your opponent), but you are not required to make two checks. You only need to succeed at one of these checks to maintain the grapple.
Benefit: Whenever you use Greater Grapple to successfully maintain a grapple as a move action, you can then spend a swift action to make a grapple combat maneuver check.
In one single turn:
Standard action: start grapple.Move action: maintain grapple and pin (Greater Grapple)
Swift action: grapple check to tie up (Rapid Grappler)
Requires minimum a 9th level character and decent rolls but it works. My first PF campaign had a paladin grappler with these feats.
Even with just Greater Grapple a vampire might not opt to immediately mist after the grapple is started (after all, if they turn the grapple around they can blood drain), allowing you to pin & tie up in round 2. Also some GMs (myself & my SO included) would consider a pinned vampire helpless enough that a grappler's party member could stake it which would again make Greater Grapple and two checks in one turn sufficient - not RAW but a simpler house-rule than making up a called shots mechanic.
Note that you don't necessarily have to be a grappling-focused character for this. A 9th level Brawler can pick up Improved Grapple, Greater Grapple, and Rapid Grappler all at once using Martial Flexibility.
Any group of adventures that is high enough level to deal with a vampire should have properly equipped itself. Grab a bag of holding or a handy haversack and fill it up with a bunch of equipment. This is where you put alchemical weapons, climbing kits, various tools, and anything else you think may come in handy. Spare weapons and extra ammo should also be included.
This is just common sense like a modern day soldier making sure he has his full pack before leaving on a patrol. I can understand that there may be sometimes you don’t have you pack with you, but if you are wandering so far away from anything that you can’t even take a body out to sunlight you should have your equipment.
Modern solider, pack… patrol?
do you know what a cache is?
the first thing an infantry or special ops patrol does, is cache their packs.
no one fights with their packs.
Weapons, ammo, water, and some other immediate stuff like a bandage and sometimes a stripped down MRE, is all that goes on patrol.
I love the adventurers who want the laundry list of things including the 10 foot pole.
unless they have dimensional space packs, I love it when they try to swim, climb and jump with all this stuff (oh…and sneak too!)
My question has always been mechanically how do you get the stake through the heart?
Since pathfinder has no called shot or hit location system one assumes the vampire would have to be helpless to get staked.
But how does one make a vampire helpless? The standard method of beat the crap out of it till it goes down is no good because the vampire will just turn to mist. At this point you try and follow the mist back to the coffin sure but if the vampire is smart his coffin is somewhere that only mist can likely get to.
I'm genuinely curious if there's an existing mechanical system to either render a vampire helpless or to stake him through the heart without rendering him helpless.
- Torger
My wife and I (a paladin and Lawful good monk) were the last members of a TPK a battle with what was described as a "wizard"
Which ended up being a Vampire.Which I only figured out AFTER it killed the paladin.
Grappling both a paladin and a monk and wining.
Never seen this happen.
I still joke to this day, as I call it the UBER Vampire, and draculas daddy.
He was doing 3D6 con drain!!
and he was doing it in a grapple…NOT a bite, just touch.
The DM (obviously) had miscopied the stat block in his notes.
But still… even to this day, Im am now supra wary of grappling with vampires and trying to incapacitate them to stake them.
You can't just drag the staked corpse outside in the sun?These were options for if that wasn't going to work, like, I dunno, his friends will be back in a bit and you don't have time to drag a 200 pound corpse all the way back through the deathtrap-riddled dungeon.If you're going to keep moving the goalposts everytime someone comes up with an answer, what's the point of the question? Vampire is a template that's fully explained in the bestiary, or the PRD as to what it's bonuses and it's vulnerabilities are. Vampires aren't liches... if you find a way to kill it, it stays dead. If you ruin (or sanctify) all of his coffins, he's finished.
As far as Batman examples are concerned... in 99 percent of his stories, he doesn't have to deal with magic or magical critters. When he does he's already looked up the right answer and came crazy prepared with the counter.
actually there is a pretty good story arc where a vampire kicks the heck out of superman (super mans invulnerability is breached by magic, vampires are magical in the Dc universe) and he was saved by batman… who killed the vampire with, was essentially a big stick (spear sized sharpened piece of a tree)
Nothing is his belt, no super gadgets, he killed it with a stick
actually there is a pretty good story arc where a vampire kicks the heck out of superman (super mans invulnerability is breached by magic, vampires are magical in the Dc universe) and he was saved by batman… who killed the vampire with, was essentially a big stick (spear sized sharpened piece of a tree)
Nothing is his belt, no super gadgets, he killed it with a stick
HA!
That's what I'm talking about!
- Torger
In one single turn:
Standard action: start grapple.
Move action: maintain grapple and pin (Greater Grapple)
Swift action: grapple check to tie up (Rapid Grappler)Requires minimum a 9th level character and decent rolls but it works. My first PF campaign had a paladin grappler with these feats.
Even with just Greater Grapple a vampire might not opt to immediately mist after the grapple is started (after all, if they turn the grapple around they can blood drain), allowing you to pin & tie up in round 2. Also some GMs (myself & my SO included) would consider a pinned vampire helpless enough that a grappler's party member could stake it which would again make Greater Grapple and two checks in one turn sufficient - not RAW but a simpler house-rule than making up a called shots mechanic.
Note that you don't necessarily have to be a grappling-focused character for this. A 9th level Brawler can pick up Improved Grapple, Greater Grapple, and Rapid Grappler all at once using Martial Flexibility.
Fair enough, good example.
Works for a grapple focused character with the right build or one specific class, but still cool that there is a way.
- Torger
*edit* missed it on my first read through, I would likewise be inclined towards a similar house rule. Alas many would not.
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At some point "I don't like magic" is like "I am Amish and don't like science." It is how the world works.
Asking for a wooden stake to work against a vampire the way it's portrayed in countless works of fiction is not that.
What you're describing is a fighter who refuses magic weapons and armor on the grounds that he wants to survive on his skill alone or turns up his nose at a potion of flight.
and yes, that player is either deliberately fighting the system or he doesn't understand it at all.
What I' describing is a fighter who hears
"Stab him through the heart with a wooden stake and he dies"
he thinks "hey, I'm supper good at stabbing things. I could totally kill something with this supper sharp piece of wood, it's not what I usually use but what ever, I'll improvise."
Next time he fights a vampire he tries it and fails, not because it was an unreasonable thing to try but because the system doesn't accurately model what he's attempting.
- Torger
If the Coffin is somewhere only mist can get to... you can probably seal the cracks or otherwise make it in accessible to the vampire I did that in a campaign once rather then the party trying to tunnel through or break down a thick wall to get to the coffins on the other side we simply sealed up the entrance with stone shape... or was it wall of stone. Then for good measure we hung strains of garlic, and put up mirrors.
100ft of porous stone
atop
a small enclosure with coffin
atop
100 more ft of porous stone
atop
an exit of some kind
Party seals top layer, vampire laughs, regenerates, comes back kills party, players quit, DM goes back home to deoucheville.
- Torger
Summon an elemental burrow down, destroy coffin vampire dead.Oh and how did the vampire get it down there? he'd need a cavity with enough space for the coffin meaning he'd need to have dug a 100ft down in order to make the opening for his coffin. You are confusing clever vampire with vampire of unlimited resources or extremely lucky geography.
Second problem... rain through all that stone suddenly becomes running water. Or at the very least becoming barrier to his gaseous form. Dying because rain prevented you from accessing your coffin before sunrise is kinda sad.
If the PC's can track down where the coffin is they can engineer a way to get to it. If they can't kick the DM out of the group and elect someone else to run the game because he's a douche.
So we assume the PCs have the recourses to get down there (earth elemental or w/e) but not an intelligent ancient immortal creature?
Rain, sure possible problem, I'm sure there's an engineering solution this was all off the cuff, and distracts from my main point.
Which is that an extremely difficult to overcome automatic escape ability is, to a certain brand of DM, irresistible douche bait. It all but encourages a ridiculous competition of who can come up with a more clever solution between the players and the DM which the DM can't loose unless he wants to.
Granted that is, on some level, true of every challenge in the game, but there's something about automatically escaping villains that encourages it.
- Torger
PC's of x level have more resources then NPC's of X level due to higher treasure tables.
So an obscenely wealthy merchant must by definition be crazy high level?
Come on.
Running every single person in the world based on tables for suggested NPC generation is silly. There are always statistical outliers that don't fit on a chart.
and is once again irrelevant to my main point.
Which is that the vampire mist ability encourages a player/dm arms race.
We both agree that trying to win a player/DM arms race is pointless and that the best way to do it is not to play so there's that.
- Torger