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Not by default. Dragon Style allows you to do that, though.
You can use acrobatics while charging. But as you quoted, you can't charge if your charge lane is obstructed--so there's never actually a case when you actually would use acrobatics during a charge.
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I'm on the opinion that if you can ignore the obstacle then there is no obstacle at all. If there is dificult terrain but you can jump it then the dificult terrain have not bloked or slowed your movement.
Sorry, that's simply not how the rules work. You draw a line, not a curved line through the air over the space you want to ignore.
The rules clearly state "if any line from the starting space to the ending space passes through a square that slows movement (i.e. difficult terrain), you can't charge." A line is a line.
If it worked this way, then the feat Dragon Style would not need to exist as charge would already do this by default. But it doesn't hence Dragon Style.
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Not by default. Dragon Style allows you to do that, though.
You can use acrobatics while charging. But as you quoted, you can't charge if your charge lane is obstructed--so there's never actually a case when you actually would use acrobatics during a charge.
The same is true for dragon style. It allows you to ignore difficult terrain while charging. Thus you can't ignore it before you charge, thus you can't initiate a charge.
Dragon style does work if someone readies an action to create difficult terrain to try and interrupt your charge though.
You're kidding, right? You don't read the part as "You ignore difficult to terrain when you charge" to alter the conditions of how charge works so that you can charge through difficult terrain as the feat says you can?
You're kidding, right? You don't read the part as "You ignore difficult to terrain when you charge" to alter the conditions of how charge works so that you can charge through difficult terrain as the feat says you can?Not by default. Dragon Style allows you to do that, though.
You can use acrobatics while charging. But as you quoted, you can't charge if your charge lane is obstructed--so there's never actually a case when you actually would use acrobatics during a charge.
The same is true for dragon style. It allows you to ignore difficult terrain while charging. Thus you can't ignore it before you charge, thus you can't initiate a charge.
Dragon style does work if someone readies an action to create difficult terrain to try and interrupt your charge though.
It is like the AOO and readied action time loop.
I'm on the opinion that if you can ignore the obstacle then there is no obstacle at all. If there is dificult terrain but you can jump it then the dificult terrain have not bloked or slowed your movement.
The problem is that if you need to jump, you're not ignoring the obstacle.
I'll grant the principle, but deny the application. If there's a wall of stone between me and my target, but I'm ethereal, I can still charge, because I literally ignore the wall. I can charge right across a magic circle against evil if I'm not evil.
But I can't ignore something I have to jump over.
If you're flying a straight line is through the air and in almost every circumstance there won't be difficult terrain. What kind of response is that?Assume A and B are two oppoenets and they are on the ground. Now, lets A have fly speed. A wants to charge B using his fly speed to ignore some dificult terrain. A have to charge in a straight line so he can not just elevates 10 ft in the air.
Why does he need to go up ten feet? Why not an inch?
If you're flying a straight line is through the air and in almost every circumstance there won't be difficult terrain. What kind of response is that?Assume A and B are two oppoenets and they are on the ground. Now, lets A have fly speed. A wants to charge B using his fly speed to ignore some dificult terrain. A have to charge in a straight line so he can not just elevates 10 ft in the air.
Does the dificult terrain stop the charge? By your logic the answer is no.
Granted, A is never slowed by the dificult terrain, but the dificult terrain is in the middle of his line of charge.
A can charge in a straight line where A ends up flying, say 5' off the ground. Should alleviate the problem.
A can charge in a straight line where A ends up flying, say 5' off the ground. Should alleviate the problem.Not in a rigid 3D grid. You would need to first 5ft upward (or at least diagonally upward) and then move horizontaly to reach B, but doign that you are not moving in a straight line.
You don't require that type of rigidity for a 2D grid, so why would you for a 3D grid?
Yes this is a bad rule. It breaks verisimilitude and most of the source fiction disagrees.
It seems pointlessly silly that a high level monk with a charge distance of 220 and an acrobatics score best recorded as "Jackie Chan" can be prevented from charging by a 5 wide trench crossing the lane some 200 feet from the target.
It is even sillier that this same trench will prevent the charge of a Tyrannosaurus Rex whose feet are far larger than the trench.
But it is the rule and until the designers see fit to change it we are stuck.
I wonder about invisible obstacles. Do they block charges? If so when? Could trying to charge be used to detect them?
How about figments? Would a figmentary trench prevent our monk charging from 200ft away? RAW I think the answer is no.
There must be a way to exploit this as an illusion detector.....
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What about the spell feather step, or feather step slippers?
Both allow you to ignore the movement effects of difficult terrain... period. so if there is no movement effects affecting your character, you can charge with no problems.
Feather step slippers:
These fine silken slippers allow their wearer to ignore the adverse movement effects of difficult terrain as if subject to the feather step spell, including granting the ability to take 5-foot steps in difficult terrain.
Feather Step
For the duration of this spell, the subject ignores the adverse movement effects of difficult terrain, and can even take 5-foot steps in difficult terrain.
With either of these you can think of difficult terrain as an illusion you made your will save against. "I disbelieve!" hehe
I wonder about invisible obstacles. Do they block charges? If so when? Could trying to charge be used to detect them?How about figments? Would a figmentary trench prevent our monk charging from 200ft away? RAW I think the answer is no.
There must be a way to exploit this as an illusion detector.....
Hardly an exploit. "A character faced with proof that an illusion isn't real needs no saving throw" to determine that it's an illusion; when a giant throws you through an illusionary wall, you have your proof.
I would rule that an invisible obstacle stops your charge at the point you interact it, in a manner consistent with the obstacle. Basically, charging through a wall of force means you slam into the wall at full speed. Charging over an invisible oil slick means your feet may slip out from under you, causing you to fall. (The grease spell suggests a Reflex save to avoid.)
A monk with sense will not attempt to charge through a figmentary trench, but if/he tries and makes it, he knows the trench was only figmentary.
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Acrobatics does not take an action, and is made as part of another action.
I see no reason to disallow making the charge, and having an acrobatics check to longjump over the difficult terrain, and the charge is interrupted if you fail leaving you in the square you landed in.
You are not allowed to make a charge through squares which slow movement. If you succeed at the acrobatics check, the square does not slow your movement. Therefore, the charge is valid. This is a similar argument to the dragon style. It states that while you are charging you ignore difficult terrain. If you can't start a charge to begin with, then you can't ignore the terrain.
Here's an example:
A wizard readies an action to cast a spell if the orc charges.
Orc charges at the wizard.
Wizard's ready action comes up, he casts Expeditious Excavation to block the square in front of the Orc, preventing his charge.
The orc now must carry out his declared action, a charge. But a charge is invalid. Does he now
a) lose his action and stop at the edge of the pit
b) lose his action and not move at all (since he can't carry out the charge)
c) get to make a acrobatics check to jump the pit and then continue his charge if successful
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An excellent question Tarantula:
I would, as a gm, grant the orc an acrobatics check @ -2 to jump the pit.
The -2 would come from the fact that his charge was already started when the wizard cast the spell, thus his charge is made more difficult (and "more difficult" is the main wording here that falls under the rules for a character or npc being at a disadvantage that is not explained in any other ruling)
From the SRD - Pits: These are holes (covered or not) that characters can fall into, causing them to take damage. A pit needs no attack roll, but a successful Reflex save (DC set by the builder) avoids it. Other save-dependent mechanical traps also fall into this category. Falling into a pit deals 1d6 points of damage per 10 feet of depth.
I would assume the difficulty of the reflex save would be the dc of the spell, and I would make the orc get a -2 on that save if we are going to be rule lawyers and not go the acrobatics route.
I am thinking that the GM would pick what best suits the situation, but the charge is not stopped unless the reflex save / acrobatics check is failed.
Acrobatics does not take an action, and is made as part of another action.
I see no reason to disallow making the charge, and having an acrobatics check to longjump over the difficult terrain, and the charge is interrupted if you fail leaving you in the square you landed in.
Well, we disagree. Turning a corner also does not take an action, and is made as part of another action, but nevertheless disallows charge. A charge represents an all-out sprint toward the opponent with the intention of hitting him as hard as possible (hence the limitation on moving in a straight line, and also the reduction in your armor class, because you're not attempting to defend yourself fully).
Having to focus on making an acrobatics check mid-charge should disrupt it at least as much as having to turn a corner.
Here's an example:
A wizard readies an action to cast a spell if the orc charges.
Orc charges at the wizard.
Wizard's ready action comes up, he casts Expeditious Excavation to block the square in front of the Orc, preventing his charge.
The orc now must carry out his declared action, a charge. But a charge is invalid. Does he now
a) lose his action and stop at the edge of the pit
b) lose his action and not move at all (since he can't carry out the charge)
c) get to make a acrobatics check to jump the pit and then continue his charge if successful
I believe RAW, the answer is [b], but at my table, I probably would rule [a].
There is, AFAIK, nothing in the written texts or developers ruling supporting [c]; it's purely a house rule.
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if/he tries and makes it, he knows the trench was only figmentary.
Exactly. The charging person/thing somehow detects the viable charge lane covered by the illusion w/o interacting with the illusion. I do not for a moment pretend that this is overly useful it is just some minor evidence that the charge rules need work. Mind you with traits/items/etc that increase movement speed on a charge the usefulness of the charging ally as an illusion detector increases.
The Charger trait (Inner sea Primer, +10 base speed when charging) for example detects illusory obstacles w/o save if both the target of the charge and the obstacle are located in the 20" bonus charge distance allowed by the trait. If the trench is real the charge is illegal and you stop 20" short as you run out of movement. If the trench is an illusion the lane is valid and you go through.
RAW this also works vs. invisible walls.
This is silly. The charge rules are silly and need revamping. That is the only point I am trying to make
Jumping is never stated to disallow a charge.
Well, we disagree. Turning a corner also does not take an action, and is made as part of another action, but nevertheless disallows charge.
Nor is taking a full-round action in the middle of a charge, but it nevertheless does.
Exactly. The charging person/thing somehow detects the viable charge lane covered by the illusion w/o interacting with the illusion....
if/he tries and makes it, he knows the trench was only figmentary.
Er, wrong end of the stick, I'm afraid. It's not that he detects the viable charge lane covered by the illusion. It's that he tries something stupid and surprisingly gets away with it.
Basically, what you're talking about is a situation where someone tries something explicitly forbidden by rule:
* I charge the dire walrus.
* You can't; there's something in the way.
* I do it anyway!
Now, normally, this is one of those situations where an exasperated GM has to make a sarcastic ruling.
* Okay, you charge thirty feet forward and slam into the rock. Roll a Reflex save to avoid tripping.
... but instead, explains that it worked:
* Well, you charge through the rock to the walrus. Apparently the rock was only an illusion.
To put it another way, if there are three dire walruses (walri?), the monk can choose to charge any one of the three -- it's not that he detects which one is chargeable. It's that he's got 2/3 chance of looking like an idiot and 1/3 of looking like a tactical genius.
Eh it is an extreme edge case. Not worth bothering with.
The Charger trait is the only thing I found that increases base speed if you have a viable lane so using the difference between charge and double move as an invisible obstacle/illusion detector is rather limited.
The bit about the 5ft trench stopping the monk charging a target 200ft away still needs to change.
The bit about the 5ft trench stopping the monk charging a target 200ft away still needs to change.
Nope -- if he needs to jump, he can't run at full speed, and therefore can't charge. (Look at any Olympic jumper to see how you have to adjust your stride to get the takeoff properly.)
Nor is taking a full-round action in the middle of a charge, but it nevertheless does.Jumping is never stated to disallow a charge.
Well, we disagree. Turning a corner also does not take an action, and is made as part of another action, but nevertheless disallows charge.
A charge is a full-round action. You can't take actions other than swift/free during another action. You also don't have another full-round action to take.
You could however, as a paladin, full-round action charge, swift action LOH yourself as you charge, free action drop the bow you had ready, as part of the charge action draw your greatsword, and you are totally good to go with that.
Yet, somehow, making a running jump as part of your charge which also doesn't take an action you say is disallowed.
Difficult terrain removes your option to charge. It is simply not allowed. In the same way that you cannot charge someone that you cannot see.
You must have a clear path toward the opponent, and nothing can hinder your movement (such as difficult terrain or obstacles). You must move to the closest space from which you can attack the opponent. If this space is occupied or otherwise blocked, you can't charge. If any line from your starting space to the ending space passes through a square that blocks movement, slows movement, or contains a creature (even an ally), you can't charge. Helpless creatures don't stop a charge.
If you don't have line of sight to the opponent at the start of your turn, you can't charge that opponent.
Also, think of it this way, if they intended for you to be able to ignore the part of the charge rules about difficult terrain don't you think they would have mentioned in the rules text that if you can make a successful jump check to clear the entire obstructing obstacle that you can successfully charge?
Or maybe because it's not damn intended to work that way.
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Also, think of it this way, if they intended for you to be able to ignore the part of the charge rules about difficult terrain don't you think they would have mentioned in the rules text that if you can make a successful jump check to clear the entire obstructing obstacle that you can successfully charge?
Or maybe because it's not damn intended to work that way.
Hence my first post. Use Dragon Style or don't do it. It's that simple.
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Just for the sake of completeness, this is from a thread that was made in 2010 about charging and acrobatics.
Can you jump over difficult terrain with your mount, while charging?
The 3.5 FAQ says that you can, but official word would be nice!
Can my character make a jumping charge attack, either
with a long jump or a high jump?You can make a long jump as part of a charge. You must
still follow all the normal rules for making a charge, such as
moving in a straight line on the battle grid. This tactic can let
you avoid some of the normal restrictions against charging. If a
square of difficult terrain is between you and your charge
target, you could possibly jump over it with a long jump. (The
fact that your jump means that your movement isn’t a perfectly
straight line doesn’t make the charge illegal—you’re still
moving in a straight line as far as the battle grid is concerned,
and the jump isn’t really changing your direction.)
Nothing's changed here, really. Jumping is a part of movement. If you're charging and part of that charge needs to be a jump, that's fine. You'll just need to make the appropriate Acrobatics DC to make the jump; if you fail the jump, obviously your charge is wasted.
JJ's response was FAQed and subsequently marked as "no reply required". Now, that's not necessarily determinative, but still.
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I fail to see how that doesn't require an errata if that's the official stance.Just for the sake of completeness, this is from a thread that was made in 2010 about charging and acrobatics.
Can you jump over difficult terrain with your mount, while charging?
The 3.5 FAQ says that you can, but official word would be nice!
Can my character make a jumping charge attack, either
with a long jump or a high jump?You can make a long jump as part of a charge. You must
still follow all the normal rules for making a charge, such as
moving in a straight line on the battle grid. This tactic can let
you avoid some of the normal restrictions against charging. If a
square of difficult terrain is between you and your charge
target, you could possibly jump over it with a long jump. (The
fact that your jump means that your movement isn’t a perfectly
straight line doesn’t make the charge illegal—you’re still
moving in a straight line as far as the battle grid is concerned,
and the jump isn’t really changing your direction.)Nothing's changed here, really. Jumping is a part of movement. If you're charging and part of that charge needs to be a jump, that's fine. You'll just need to make the appropriate Acrobatics DC to make the jump; if you fail the jump, obviously your charge is wasted.JJ's response was FAQed and subsequently marked as "no reply required". Now, that's not necessarily determinative, but still.
You must have a clear path toward the opponent, and nothing can hinder your movement (such as difficult terrain or obstacles).
It says "nothing can hinder your movement" not "if you can avoid something that would hinder your movement". As written it simply doesn't work.
That's how it worked in 3.5, with basically the same language (the d20SRD's version, anyway - I'd have to go home and dig out my 3.5 PHB to see if anything was changed from that version, though it's doubtful anything substantial did). My general position is that if a 3.5 FAQ clarified how the rule worked in 3.5 and nothing substantial has changed in the language, you should presume that it works the same way. Very rarely has this proven to be a problem (with a couple of notable exceptions).
I doubt it will be errata'd, simply because it hasn't changed since 3.5, where it worked the same way.
Of course, this doesn't necessarily mean it must work the same in PF. But unless and until a clear developer comment comes out saying otherwise, one should run it in accordance with the 3.5 FAQ, as that is likely the intended function of the rules.
EDIT: For the record, here is the d20SRD language.
You must have a clear path toward the opponent, and nothing can hinder your movement (such as difficult terrain or obstacles).
I would be fine if jumping were allowed in a charge, but ignoring an FAQ from a game system that isn't the same and has only had 1 developer (and the creative director not rules teams) comment I don't find this as sufficient evidence. Let there be jumping charges! But first let there be either an FAQ for Pathfinder or let the erratta take place and the wording of charge be changed.
Until that time it is not supported within the existant rules, though it makes a perfectly suitable house rule.
Difficult terrain removes your option to charge. It is simply not allowed. In the same way that you cannot charge someone that you cannot see.
You must have a clear path toward the opponent, and nothing can hinder your movement (such as difficult terrain or obstacles). You must move to the closest space from which you can attack the opponent. If this space is occupied or otherwise blocked, you can't charge. If any line from your starting space to the ending space passes through a square that blocks movement, slows movement, or contains a creature (even an ally), you can't charge. Helpless creatures don't stop a charge.
If you don't have line of sight to the opponent at the start of your turn, you can't charge that opponent.
Also, think of it this way, if they intended for you to be able to ignore the part of the charge rules about difficult terrain don't you think they would have mentioned in the rules text that if you can make a successful jump check to clear the entire obstructing obstacle that you can successfully charge?
Or maybe because it's not damn intended to work that way.
If you have dragon style, you aren't slowed by difficult terrain, so you are allowed to charge. The tile is still there, it can still hinder movement, but because of dragon style, you are not hindered, and therefore can charge.
If you are flying, you aren't slowed by difficult terrain, so you are allowed to charge. The tile is still there, it can still hinder movement, but because you have a fly speed, you are not hindered, and therefore can charge.
If you make a jump check to jump over the square, you aren't slowed by the terrain in the square you jumped over. The tile is still there, it can still hinder movement, but because you made a successful acrobatics check to jump over it, your movement wasn't hindered. You could double move, and jump a 10' chasm, still move your 60 (or whatever your double movement speed is) and be totally fine. So why can you not charge in this same instance? The "difficult terrain" did not hinder your movement, therefore you should be able to charge.
I would be fine if jumping were allowed in a charge, but ignoring an FAQ from a game system that isn't the same and has only had 1 developer (and the creative director not rules teams) comment I don't find this as sufficient evidence. Let there be jumping charges! But first let there be either an FAQ for Pathfinder or let the erratta take place and the wording of charge be changed.
Until that time it is not supported within the existant rules, though it makes a perfectly suitable house rule.
Eh, I think the 3.5 FAQ carries through by legacy, just like a bunch of other stuff that's worked out that way.
Undoubtedly, the best result would be to get a response from the PF team, particularly with the number of times it has come up throughout the years. But I still think the most advisable position until something else comes down is to follow the 3.5 FAQ, since that's the best indication of intent we have. If it worked that way before (with the same rules language), and nothing has changed since, there's nothing to indicate that the PF developers intended it to work differently.
So, agreeing about disagreeing and all that, I suppose.
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This is the whole 'Charge over a pit' scenario again.
The book reads You must have a clear path toward the opponent, and nothing can hinder your movement (such as difficult terrain or obstacles). .
The question to be answered is whether taking an action to nullify the obstacle results in the object not hindering the charging character's movement.
There are also no rules specifically about jumping pits during a charge, however the term 'movement' does have a definition within the game. Tactical Movement is measured in 5-foot squares.
If the obstacle is a pit and the character jumps it without a loss of distance traveled, how can you say that his movement was hindered?
If the obstacle is a patch of rocky floor and the character jumps it without a loss of distance traveled, how can you say his movement was hindered as well?
This does not land in the realm of house rules. It lands in the realm of something the GM would need to adjudicate...and each group will probably be a little different.
For example, in my game, I would allow you to jump over an obstacle during a charge. However, if the space in which you land is difficult terrain, you would have to make a DC 10 Acrobatics check to stick the landing or go prone after the charge. That would be my adjudication.
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Frankly, claudekennilol was wrong to give a blanket answer like he did. Blanket statements are always wrong. (see what I did there) ;)
I would be fine if jumping were allowed in a charge, .Where in the book say that you can not jump while charging?
Where does it say you can? Without that FAQ from 3.5 there is nothing to imply that you should be able to. And Pathfinder rule set is based around telling you what you are allowed to do, not what aren't allowed to do. If it is not written as being allowed, it isn't allowed (without DM intervention).
Where does it say you can? Without that FAQ from 3.5 there is nothing to imply that you should be able to. And Pathfinder rule set is based around telling you what you are allowed to do, not what aren't allowed to do. If it is not written as being allowed, it isn't allowed (without DM intervention).I would be fine if jumping were allowed in a charge, .Where in the book say that you can not jump while charging?
Where does it explicitly tell you what jumping does? It says you can jump X distance with a Y check, and thats it. It doesn't tell you that jumping allows you to ignore difficult terrain in a space. It doesn't tell you that jumping over a 5' pit allows you to not fall into the pit. It assumes that you can reason out what jumping over a square does.
The rules allow for you to jump, and provide the DC for doing so. Jumping does not impact your movement, and does not take an action to do.
The rules also spell out what is required for charge. What blocks it, and what doesn't.
If you take the two together, and choose to understand that if you jump 5' over a 5' pit, that the pit hasn't hampered your movement, you can come to the conclusion that jumping over a pit during a charge allows you to charge, because the pit hasn't hampered your movement.
Or you can say you can't do it because the rules don't explicitly say you can. Just like the rules don't specifically say you can breathe, but there are rules for suffocating. Guess everyone dies after 18 seconds.
Look, I think it is a fine house rule. I wouldn't mind seeing it clarified that this is possible.
But with the rules as written, the 3.5 FAQ has no validity and neither does JJ's statement, I see no reason to say that the presence of difficult terrain along the charge doesn't prevent your ability to charge (even if you might be able to jump over it). The way it is written having to jump basically prevents you from making a proper charge by interrupting your movement and momentum. If the rules team ever comments on the topic and even simply says that the 3.5 FAQ is still valid then I will have no problem with it. But without such action it is not supported within the rules.
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But with the rules as written, there is nothing preventing it. At all.
1.) You can jump as part of a move. No action required.
2.) You cannot charge if something is hindering your movement.
2a.) If you have cleared an obstacle, it is no longer hindering your movement.
3.) Therefore you can jump over an obstacle as part of a charge.
Simple logical chain. You can't charge if something hinders your movement...but there's nothing hindering your movement here.
The argument has been made that this invalidates the rule, but that's simply not true. Obstacles you can't jump over (such as walls) still prevent a charge, as do obstacles you can't clear the full distance for (which means there is a potential for you landing in Difficult Terrain after attempting to jump it, and losing your whole action).