Hello board peoples,
I am working on an orc character for an upcoming campaign, and I want to make something a little different. I prefer to play optimized/powerful characters. Obviously the orc lends itself to a sky high strength, a full BAB class, and a two handed weapon. That's been done a million trillion times. I am hoping to go orc, and make an optimized character, who isn't that big dumb brute. I'm willing to try any class. Here are the character creation guidelines:
Level: 1
Ability Scores: 25 Point Buy
Wealth: Average for class
Hit Points: Maximum at 1st Level.
Traits: 1 campaign trait + 1 normal trait (1 drawback can be taken for an additional trait).
Classes: No guns, no gunslingers, no third party. Anything Paizo can be refluffed as necessary. Also, see Alignments section.
Alignments: Any non-evil. All alignment restrictions for classes and PrCs are dropped.
I've been looking at witch (scarred witch doctor), possibly a slumber based build. Does anyone have any other good ideas? Are there ways to optimize around strength that aren't the traditional melee route? Thanks for the consideration.
Yeah scarred witch doctor is pretty tempting, but I don't like the fluff of it. I guess the DM did say things can be refluffed as necessary.
So if it's scarred witch doctor, how do we make the best scarred witch doctor possible? 18 Con, and then what? What feats/traits/items are there out there that let other abilities depend on con?
Yeah scarred witch doctor is pretty tempting, but I don't like the fluff of it. I guess the DM did say things can be refluffed as necessary.
So if it's scarred witch doctor, how do we make the best scarred witch doctor possible? 18 Con, and then what? What feats/traits/items are there out there that let other abilities depend on con?
Well... at that point you are a full caster... that depends on constitution. At level 1, you're awesome (and not as squishy as 99% of all other casters at your level... at level 15, you're reigning down destruction upon your enemies, while still having a decent amount of health, OR being a god of utility while (you guessed it) still having a lot of health.
Be wary. Casting based on on constitution SCREAMS cheese for most GMs. Sure, it's flavour filled, but... yeah.
Well, it's an orc heavy game world, and he's stated all paizo is allowed, so....-shrug-
There's no archetype that grants spellcasting based off of strength is there? That would be truly awesome to take into Dragon Disciple...
I wanted to suggest something similar to Kazaan:
Be a ranger or a slayer to get TWF without dex. Take the orc double axe and orc weapon expertise. For the feat take the option to deal 1 point of nonlethal with every hit in addition to the normal damage. Add Enforcer.
Now you have a high strength and by that high damage TWF user who can make opponents shaken by hitting them.
Because you only deal 1 point of nonlethal you do not lose too much if enemies are immune to it or get healed.
Alternate Idea:
Take the trait to use intimidate with int and raise int a little. With the PB of 25 you can easily afford a 14 pre racial mods.
Take intimidating prowess, hurtful and shocking bellow.
Have a high perception and/or an ability to always act in surprise rounds.
Now in a surprise round you can intimidate someone as a free action. If you intimidate someone you can attack him. That means that you can charge an enemy, including the attack, intimidate him, hit him. All in one surprise round. Any you can do that with every melee class with every melee weapon.
If you can add cornugon smash you can charge one foe and intimidate him as a free action if you hit. If that succeeds you can hit him again. Now you can use the free action from hurtful to intimidate another foe within reach and attack him, too if you are successful. That's three attacks at full bab (at least 1 with charge bonus).
Sure, those intimidate builds work best with a twohanded weapon (because it deals more damage per hit) but you don't have to use one.
You could build a strength based swashbuckler or daring champion.
Sure, you don't benefit from swashbuckler's finesse but you do benefit from almost every other ability.
With a cavalier (daring champion) you lose mount and get nothing for it (nothing you can use) but the other abilities are nice. Especially precise strike that adds your level to damage as long as you have 1 panache point. During a challenge you add level to damage a second time.
Add power attack and you're good to go.
With grudge fighter and the mindlessly cruel trait you get a nice damage bonus against enemies that attack you. Which you can provoke via reverse faint. (similar to CAGM but using up an immediate action instead of an AOO).
The result: Apart from still being a big strong brute you fight more like a swashbuckler.
Take the orc double axe and orc weapon expertise. For the feat take the option to deal 1 point of nonlethal with every hit in addition to the normal damage. Add Enforcer.
This I like. Great idea, thanks! It could go with many possible builds as well.
Or you know don't make strength based character. Be the outsider Orc. Bard? Rogue? Brb/Wizard?
Half-orc inquisitor of Cayden Cailean. Get some real use out of that half-orc intimidate bonus. Ferocity works best with Paladins but can work for anyone with cure spells. Rather than Create Water, you are allowed to Create Ale.
What isn't to love about it?
Okay, after getting approval from the DM to use hexes while raging I think I'm going to go something like this...
Str 18 Dex 14 Con 18 Int 8 Wis 8 Cha 6
1st: Barbarian; Orc Weapon Expertise
2nd: Fighter; Enforcer
3rd: Witch (Scarred Witch Doctor); Raging Vitality
4th: Witch (Scarred Witch Doctor); Misfortune, +1 con
5th: Witch (Scarred Witch Doctor); Extra Hex (Cackle)
6th: Witch (Scarred Witch Doctor); Flight
7th: Witch (Scarred Witch Doctor); Intimidating Prowess
General idea is to wield an orc double axe. At first level just a barbarian, then second level starts debuffing people. 5th level really starts debuffing people. It goes on from there. Every swing gives a chance to demoralize, and when raging the DC to save against misfortune would be 18 at level 4 while raging, not too shabby.
I could go slumber but that might be too powerful, and I don't want to get hit with the nerf stick down the road. Does anyone else have any ideas or suggestions for the above build?
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Melee witch doctor? You definitely want this feat:
Hex Strike (Combat)
Chanting and cursing, you put a hex on your enemy as part of your unarmed strike.
Prerequisite: Hex class feature, Improved Unarmed Strike.Benefit: When you gain this feat, choose one hex that you can use to affect no more than one opponent. If you make a successful unarmed strike against an opponent, in addition to dealing your unarmed strike damage, you can use a swift action to deliver the effects of the chosen hex to that opponent. Doing so does not provoke attacks of opportunity.
Special: You can take this feat multiple times. Each time you take it, you apply it to a different qualifying hex.
Evil Eye? How about Evil FIST?! Seriously, though, grab a level of Brawler or Monk (or just take Improved Unarmed Strike if you want full casting) and you're good to go. Debuff people while smacking them around!
Melee witch doctor? You definitely want this feat:
Evil Eye? How about Evil FIST?! Seriously, though, grab a level of Brawler or Monk (or just take Improved Unarmed Strike if you want full casting) and you're good to go. Debuff people while smacking them around!Hex Strike (Combat)
Chanting and cursing, you put a hex on your enemy as part of your unarmed strike.
Prerequisite: Hex class feature, Improved Unarmed Strike.Benefit: When you gain this feat, choose one hex that you can use to affect no more than one opponent. If you make a successful unarmed strike against an opponent, in addition to dealing your unarmed strike damage, you can use a swift action to deliver the effects of the chosen hex to that opponent. Doing so does not provoke attacks of opportunity.
Special: You can take this feat multiple times. Each time you take it, you apply it to a different qualifying hex.
WHAT!??!!? Awesome.
Hmmm....instead of orc weapon expertise, can just use unarmed now (since you can choose to deal nonlethal with no penalty to attacks). First level can be brawler.
Anyone know of a way to get enforcer as a bonus feat at first level without taking a level of fighter?
Guess I could just start witch a level earlier, and not take a fighter level or raging vitality.
How about this, in light of Hex Strike...
Str 18 Dex 14 Con 18 Int 8 Wis 8 Cha 6
1st: Brawler; Enforcer
2nd: Witch (Scarred Witch Doctor);
3rd: Witch (Scarred Witch Doctor); Misfortune hex, Extra Hex (Cackle)
4th: Witch (Scarred Witch Doctor); +1 con
5th: Witch (Scarred Witch Doctor); Intimidating Prowess
6th: Witch (Scarred Witch Doctor); Flight hex
7th: Witch (Scarred Witch Doctor); Power Attack
Then I'm demoralizing people with a punch from level 1, misfortuning them with each punch from level 3. Seems awesome. Any more tips? Ways to pump intimidate (items, traits, etc)? Thanks again guys, this is shaping up nicely.
You might want to go into Eldritch Knight for this build. With the Witch's 1/2 BAB eventually your to-hit will go down too far for this to be viable. You'd need martial weapon proficiency to do that though, so you'll need to go Sohei Monk instead of Brawler.
True...true. Or I could go Fighter (Unarmed Fighter) and grab boar style. Then switch to eldritch knight at 7th level. Take boar ferocity instead of power attack.
Str 18 Dex 14 Con 18 Int 8 Wis 8 Cha 6
1st: Fighter (Unarmed Fighter); Improved Unarmed Strike, Boar Style, Enforcer
2nd: Witch (Scarred Witch Doctor);
3rd: Witch (Scarred Witch Doctor); Misfortune hex, Hex strike
4th: Witch (Scarred Witch Doctor); +1 con
5th: Witch (Scarred Witch Doctor); Intimidating Prowess, Flight hex, Extra Hex (Cackle)
6th: Witch (Scarred Witch Doctor);
7th: Eldritch Knight; Boar Ferocity
Edit:Wow...actually taking hex strike might help. Fixed that.
I've looked more than once at a battle-witch, so here's a few things I've thought about if it helps:
The Strength patron gives you Divine Favor, and Divine Power if you go to 8. With the Fate's Favored trait, those go a long way to solving combat problems.
Brawling armor is incredibly good and can be worked in with or without using Arcane Armor Training - if you use Mage Armor, just grab a Brawling Haramaki.
Hex Strike is one of the coolest thematic things ever; instead of cackling you can just re-hex them with your fist.
One interesting thing about using unarmed strikes is that you can two-hand a weapon for a full attack, but substitute an unarmed strike in place of one of the weapon attacks. There's no TWF penalty or other problems, you're literally just trading a weapon strike for an unarmed strike. It has some drawbacks, but the advantage in doing this (aside from the awesome flavor of, say, punching someone in the face before giving them a good spearing) is worth noting:
1) you can buy a Bodywrap of Mighty Strikes instead of an Amulet of Mighty Fists, which costs a lot less and doesn't take up the amulet slot. A bodywrap and a weapon isn't much more expensive than the amulet alone.
2) a weapon - spear is the obvious choice for flavor - is going to be more generally dangerous, due to two-handed strength and damage die and so on, while Dragon Style is perfect for making a single unarmed strike per round if you want a combat style.
3) one can place the Cruel property on the weapon to combo shaken->sickened on foes, if one is so inclined. A Witch Doctor with enchanted body-wrappings and a Cruel spear makes me smile, anyways.
Edit: Cornugon Smash may be a better option for demoralizing, depending on a lot of things.
I've looked more than once at a battle-witch, so here's a few things I've thought about if it helps:
The Strength patron gives you Divine Favor, and Divine Power if you go to 8. With the Fate's Favored trait, those go a long way to solving combat problems.
Brawling armor is incredibly good and can be worked in with or without using Arcane Armor Training - if you use Mage Armor, just grab a Brawling Haramaki.
Hex Strike is one of the coolest thematic things ever; instead of cackling you can just re-hex them with your fist.
One interesting thing about using unarmed strikes is that you can two-hand a weapon for a full attack, but substitute an unarmed strike in place of one of the weapon attacks. There's no TWF penalty or other problems, you're literally just trading a weapon strike for an unarmed strike. It has some drawbacks, but the advantage in doing this (aside from the awesome flavor of, say, punching someone in the face before giving them a good spearing) is worth noting:
1) you can buy a Bodywrap of Mighty Strikes instead of an Amulet of Mighty Fists, which costs a lot less and doesn't take up the amulet slot. A bodywrap and a weapon isn't much more expensive than the amulet alone.
2) a weapon - spear is the obvious choice for flavor - is going to be more generally dangerous, due to two-handed strength and damage die and so on, while Dragon Style is perfect for making a single unarmed strike per round if you want a combat style.
3) one can place the Cruel property on the weapon to combo shaken->sickened on foes, if one is so inclined. A Witch Doctor with enchanted body-wrappings and a Cruel spear makes me smile, anyways.
Edit: Cornugon Smash may be a better option for demoralizing, depending on a lot of things.
Some excellent ideas, thank you!
Traits:Fate's Favored; Bully?
1st: Fighter (Unarmed Fighter); Improved Unarmed Strike, Dragon style, Enforcer
2nd: Witch (Scarred Witch Doctor);
3rd: Witch (Scarred Witch Doctor); Misfortune hex, Hex strike
4th: Witch (Scarred Witch Doctor); +1 con
5th: Witch (Scarred Witch Doctor); Intimidating Prowess, Flight hex, Extra Hex (Cackle)
6th: Witch (Scarred Witch Doctor);
7th: Eldritch Knight; Power Attack
8th: Eldritch Knight; +1 con
9th: Eldritch Knight; Furious Focus
Round 1: Charge+demoralizing+misfortuning dragon kick
Round 2: Stab with cruel weapon, and cackle madly
Round 3: Rinse and repeat!
Misfortune's one round will expire before you get a chance to cackle there though, and it won't help to have it reach a two round duration at level 8 because...
Not to be a downer, but I probably should have started by mentioning that a 'battle-witch' has some fundamental engineering problems. The biggest is that your hexes stop getting more powerful once you go Eldritch Knight - they don't increase in DC because it's based on Witch Level, and the same goes for effects that scale by level.
If you're OK with casting Witch spells and applying Evil Eye by fist, then by level 8 you've got a fully evolved hex that always lasts at least 1 round, save or not, and you've got an extra attack from Divine Power. So:
1> charging evil eye dragon +demoralize
2> evil eye dragon +demoralize, then cruel spearing
3> see 2.
Lots of murder-y fun, but you're not cackling the crowd; you're crippling and exterminating goons one by one. Mathematically, Evil Eye's -4 is approximately the same penalty to a d20 as Misfortune; it only affects one type of roll, but you choose which, and they can't resist it. If this isn't witch-y enough for you, then really you have to go straight Witch and do everything you can to keep your strikes relevant.
Oh, and Magical Knack is the other trait you want if you multiclass.
Misfortune's one round will expire before you get a chance to cackle there though, and it won't help to have it reach a two round duration at level 8 because...
Not to be a downer, but I probably should have started by mentioning that a 'battle-witch' has some fundamental engineering problems. The biggest is that your hexes stop getting more powerful once you go Eldritch Knight - they don't increase in DC because it's based on Witch Level, and the same goes for effects that scale by level.
If you're OK with casting Witch spells and applying Evil Eye by fist, then by level 8 you've got a fully evolved hex that always lasts at least 1 round, save or not, and you've got an extra attack from Divine Power. So:
1> charging evil eye dragon +demoralize
2> evil eye dragon +demoralize, then cruel spearing
3> see 2.Lots of murder-y fun, but you're not cackling the crowd; you're crippling and exterminating goons one by one. Mathematically, Evil Eye's -4 is approximately the same penalty to a d20 as Misfortune; it only affects one type of roll, but you choose which, and they can't resist it. If this isn't witch-y enough for you, then really you have to go straight Witch and do everything you can to keep your strikes relevant.
Oh, and Magical Knack is the other trait you want if you multiclass.
Wait, what do you mean it won't last? It lasts one round, so from what I activate the hex until the end of my next turn. Otherwise there's no point in cackle for misfortune/fortune before 8th level (and evil eye if they pass their save) by your interpretation. I've seen witches run in many games across many DMs and I've never seen that way of running it before.
As to the DC issue, yeah, this is true. My DC will be 15 for levels 1-4, and then 16 from then on. Not amazing by any means. However, since I'm not using actions to activate it, doesn't really matter to me if they pass their save.
Whenever things start reliably passing their saves for misfortune, I'll be picking up evil eye and start using that, since as you say they are still affected even if they pass the save.
Also, good tip on magical knack.
You have to cackle the same turn you use evil eye for it to last.
So you guys are saying all one round hexes only last to the next round if you cackle the same round you cast them?
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Well, it's not the usual dumb brute, though he could be a dumb brute...
Half-Orc
1 level rogue, thug archtype
2 levels cavalier, order of the cockatrice
2 levels barbarian, intimidating glare rage power
Skill focus (intimidate) and intimidating prowess as feats
Bully trait
Don't forget to max out your initimidate skill
Tadah! A walking nightmare!
Wait, what do you mean it won't last? It lasts one round, so from what I activate the hex until the end of my next turn. Otherwise there's no point in cackle for misfortune/fortune before 8th level (and evil eye if they pass their save) by your interpretation. I've seen witches run in many games across many DMs and I've never seen that way of running it before.
1 round means that if it's activated on your turn, it ends as your next turn begins. The Soothsayer hex could solve that problem, because it would activate after your turn instead.
Anyhow, don't sell Evil Eye short - Misfortune is statistically equal to a 25% or less penalty on a d20 roll, where Evil Eye is a 20% penalty. Misfortune affects both saves and attacks, Evil Eye affects your choice of saves, attacks or AC, which means it's versatile; for example, hurt their attacks after you charge, then hurt their AC when you're going to full attack them. The best thing about Evil Eye is that if they save, it still lasts 1 round; if they don't save, then you can use Evil Eye again with a new penalty... it's only too bad Evil Eye is 'mind-affecting'.
On the bright side, since Hex Strike is a swift action they have to save against your hex with the shaken penalty that came with the strike.
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I guess evil eye it is. I was hoping to avoid mind affecting, but it should still work okay. So looking at a somewhat final build of...
Str 18 Dex 14 Con 18 Int 8 Wis 8 Cha 6
Traits:Fate's Favored; Magical Knack
1st: Fighter (Unarmed Fighter); Improved Unarmed Strike, Dragon style, Enforcer
2nd: Witch (Scarred Witch Doctor);
3rd: Witch (Scarred Witch Doctor); Evil Eye hex, Hex strike
4th: Witch (Scarred Witch Doctor); +1 con
5th: Witch (Scarred Witch Doctor); Intimidating Prowess, Flight hex
6th: Witch (Scarred Witch Doctor);
7th: Eldritch Knight; Power Attack
8th: Eldritch Knight; +1 con
9th: Eldritch Knight; Furious Focus
10th, etc.: Eldritch Knight...
Any final nitpicks from anyone?
Well I'd say you really do want 8 levels of Witch for the improved Hex, +2 hex DC, 2 more hexes and Bonus Divine Power - the BAB difference between 5 and 8 Witch levels is only 1 point anyhow, and that's well worth it just for the Divine Power extra attack.
Oh... I don't think it came up that Witches can cast Frostbite as well - you can throw Frostbite on yourself before a battle and deal extra damage and fatigue when you strike unarmed. Bonus.