Why do yall keep participating in a thread that has obviously gone way beyond the point of being toxic and unproductive? Besides the entertainment factor.
Goblin Squad Member
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Well, since we are doing things so publicly, I'd like to officially resign from The Seventh Veil; I won't be a part of such righteous behavior. And, I won't be participating in a conversation with the Stewards. Please deactivate my forum account.
Going forward, I'd hope everyone, including those in disagreement, bestow dignity and respect - even to adversaries.
Well, giving Audoucet the benefit of the doubt enough to give him the opportunity to discuss the fact that he was offering help to our enemies precisely because they were our enemies and he sought to damage us seemed pretty benign to me.
And yes, it's important to me that folks not associate the kind of behavior we've seen recently from Audoucet with The Seventh Veil.
What behavior? The fact that he is upset with the game? So being a part of T7V requires that you are a fanboy... got it.
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Goblin Squad Member
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When I'm going into a meeting to present, knowing that the majority in there have already rejected what I want to say and will shoot me down the first chance they get, I have to tailor my approach to make sure that I don't give them the ammunition to do the job easier. It is about doing what I need to, to get the outcome I want from the committee, even if it isn't the normal way I communicate.
Xeen go back over Audoucets posts for the last few months, toxic attitudes are bad for everyone associated with them.
As individuals and as a community, though, we do have a choice in whether or not we participate in those toxic attitudes. In this thread, many folks chose to participate. That was their choice, not Audoucet's. Audoucet may have control over his own actions; but s/he has no control over others' actions and how they choose to react or respond to Audoucet's.
Other options for responding to toxic posts available to us include ignoring them, "Thank you, but no thank you", "You might be right", "Thank you for sharing, but I disagree" or some variation thereof.
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Goblin Squad Member
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@ Xeen
I believe Audoucet was being charged with aiding and abetting the enemy. I believe his treasonous act was giving you one of his accounts. Apparently TSV members are bit allowed to do what they wish with their own property.
I hope others can see the freedom differential they would experience with a less domineering leadership, if they came to Aragon.
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Goblin Squad Member
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@ Xeen
I believe Audoucet was being charged with aiding and abetting the enemy. I believe his treasonous act was giving you one of his accounts. Apparently TSV members are bit allowed to do what they wish with their own property.
I hope others can see the freedom differential they would experience with a less domineering leadership, if they came to Aragon.
There is more to it though. Even before he gave me an account, he was arguing with Nihimon and criticizing the game. That alone seems to be enough.
You are correct. If people want to play the game their way with a group of helpful people that will not chastise them for not being politically correct, should come to Aragon.
We must be the only group in the game that doesnt try to pussyfoot around everything. If there are more, please speak up!!!
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Goblin Squad Member
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Why is anyone paying attention to MMORPG? While it's true that it's a popular site, it's also known for flame threads and generally toxic postings with extreme views on both sides.
Case in point: The Secret World before release was vilified by the community on that site. The number of GW2 fans descended upon TSW message boards en masse. Universally the game was picked apart for animations, business model, combat in general (action combat was all the rage thanks to GW2 coming out.)
Now look at the same community. The very same people from before now champion TSW as one of the greatest games ever and is one of the top rated post-hype games released.
The simple answer is to ignore the forums and GW just focus on the news section of the site dealing with Murphy and the gang. 'Counteracting' the negative forum postings is a fool's errand.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Interesting reading on the linked MMORPG.com thread, and sadly, this one.
Can folks tell me if any of these points (from a comment in the lined MMORPG.com thread) have any basis in their opinion?
The game has potential but it also has some things which I find a big turn off. Some things I do not like:
~ ranged attacks are rooted
~ no run toggle you need to hold down shift or watnot to "sprint"
~ current aggro mechanics result in a leash like behavior
~ IA is very very stupid
~ missing very basic controls that we tend to take for granted in most mmos (in FS cant alt tab without game crashing and things of this nature)
~ crafting is frakking boring and has huge huge craft times
~ skills and their progression are not very intuitive
~ they way skills and gear works is confusing for newbies. For example you get the skill frost ray but need a wand to actually use it then when you finally get frost ray 2 you think woot damage upgrade but nada because you need a +1 wand to use frost ray 2, the same thing with armor and armor feats/skills etc etc.
There's a plethora of other things but I don't really feel like writing and essay on it. lol
I mean the game has some potential unfortunately the people making the game are listening to a select few "heavy weights" in there forums which is leading and will lead to more asinine directions mechanics wise.
Is there currently not a "run" toggle function?
Are ranged attacks so gloriously "rooted"?Is aggro a "leash" as characterised?
Is GW listening to a select few "heavy weights"
Does anyone think any "asinine mechanics" have been made?
I'd like some honesty and candour, not regarding the poster, but whether you feel these are fair comments, or off the mark.
Personally I understand the game is in a rough early state, so I'm not grinding my teeth or freaking out about it. I haven't
A: deciphered my email instructions regarding my computer's specs vs minimum requirements and
B: really got the time to play the game.
At the moment, from the outside, with all the talk of spreadsheets and trainers and grinding - it all seems way more complicated even than Guild Wars, which I played with a friend who constantly had the Guild Wars wiki open on another computer to find out what to do and where the heck to go. I really just want to explore Golarion, or at least the River Kingdoms. Not embark on actuarial tutorials.
Daeglin speaks truth it's on our forums in bold for all to see at all times. Sometimes I wonder if there is a subliminal message!
I also see, that everyone missed my subliminal message of going to vote on MMORPG.com and instead went coo coo for cocoa puffs.
I guess it was worth it though cause I got Ryan Dancey to say
Rageboi (tm) to Mbando FTW
Do I get an achievement for this? I gots to know!
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Goblin Squad Member
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Daeglin speaks truth it's on our forums in bold for all to see at all times. Sometimes I wonder if there is a subliminal message!
I also see, that everyone missed my subliminal message of going to vote on MMORPG.com and instead went coo coo for cocoa puffs.
Look at all the trouble you started!! :D
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Goblin Squad Member
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There is a run toggle function.
Ranged is rooted as a balancing factor until stamina is full implemented, as well as ammo.
Aggro is messed up, they are fixing it.
GW is listening to a lot of people, not just a select few, their personal priorities list makes it seem that a select view are getting their way, they aren't (I can tell you that for a fact).
I am pretty sure I know what they are referring too as asinine, I don't think anything is asinine really, maybe poorly implemented, but it has a purpose.
HERE is a guide that has a ton of frequently asked questions, tons of links to great information, a way to spend your first experience, and tons of other help.
Goblinworks Executive Founder
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-Are ranged attacks so gloriously "rooted"?
That is not an opinion, it is a fact. Supposedly, it will be replaced by something better someday.
-Is aggro a "leash" as characterised?
It seems that the code is absolutely not meant to behave like that, but the result is effectively a leash like behaviour.
-Is GW listening to a select few "heavy weights"
No, It's just that a select few "heavy weights" are always in agreement with GW, so people can believe they listen to them, but I don't really think so.
-Does anyone think any "asinine mechanics" have been made?
The AI isn't supposed to exist now, they want a "minimal viable product".
If you don't want to worry with complex mechanics and reading technical tutorials, that is clearly not the game you want.
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Goblin Squad Member
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@Ok thanks for the differing points Cheatle and Audoucet.
And thanks for the guide link Cheatle, I'll check that out! Though I'd dearly like to not need it - if my experience is such that, as Audoucet asserts, without player made guides currently there is a difficulty to progress, my interest will necessarily dwindle.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Points 1-5 (in MMORPG post) can be attributed to work in progress (for now, if they persist two years from now let's talk again).
Crafting: subjective. I like it.
Skills: there will be tooltips soon.
Newbies: again - tooltips are coming. I agree it is confusing/difficult at first but having a lot depend on gear makes gear more valueable which makes crafting more valuable which, to me, is a good thing.
Doing things differently than "most" other games means that players will have to learn the new systems. It doesn't mean that the new way is bad. I think the skill system blends well with the rest of the game.
About GWs having favourites, I haven't seen it. Some people more or less consistently produce ideas that GWs like and are in line with GWs own visions however. I mean, they are more likely to pick up an idea they like than one they don't. Doesn't necessarily have anything to do with who is the source of that idea. Overall I think they are sticking to their own ideas when they strongly feel something should be a certain way. It doesn't seem to me like any particular posters are able to sway them into making decisions they don't actually want to make.
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Goblin Squad Member
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@Ok thanks for the differing points Cheatle and Audoucet.
And thanks for the guide link Cheatle, I'll check that out!. Though I'd dearly like to not need it - if my experience is such that, as Audoucet asserts, without player made guides currently there is a difficulty to progress, my interest will necessarily dwindle.
Depends what you mean by difficulty to progress. If you want a levelling guide, you won't be happy. If you mean no gating, and having trouble knowing how to get through the gate, you won't be happy. Guides have not been a priority to date, and likely won't be for some time to come. But its a helpful, nontoxic (hee hee) community with people always willing to fill in gaps in knowledge. And, you know, its Alpha.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I think the people who will have the most trouble with the GW design are the migrators. There is a population that tries an MMO for 3 months, becomes dissatisfied, moves on to another, maybe comes back if there is a patch or a "correction" to a system they didn't like. Most MMO's follow enough standard design that the learning curve is not steep and catch up is fast. My feeling is that PFO will be very "unfriendly" to that type of play.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Depends what you mean by difficulty to progress. If you want a levelling guide, you won't be happy. If you mean no gating, and having trouble knowing how to get through the gate, you won't be happy. Guides have not been a priority to date, and likely won't be for some time to come. But its a helpful, nontoxic (hee hee) community with people always willing to fill in gaps in knowledge. And, you know, its Alpha.@Ok thanks for the differing points Cheatle and Audoucet.
And thanks for the guide link Cheatle, I'll check that out!. Though I'd dearly like to not need it - if my experience is such that, as Audoucet asserts, without player made guides currently there is a difficulty to progress, my interest will necessarily dwindle.
Let me be clear: I would rather there was not a necessity for a guide [i]at all[i]. If the game is complex to the degree so that it needs a guide to explain how to progress I won't be interested. If we are merely speaking about guides for optimizing your "build" that's fine for those that want them - I just don't want to have to have read a guide to simply play and enjoy the game simply.
I don't know what gating is.
Yes the community seems helpful if a little frazzled. ;)
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Goblin Squad Member
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I think the people who will have the most trouble with the GW design are the migrators. There is a population that tries an MMO for 3 months, becomes dissatisfied, moves on to another, maybe comes back if there is a patch or a "correction" to a system they didn't like. Most MMO's follow enough standard design that the learning curve is not steep and catch up is fast. My feeling is that PFO will be very "unfriendly" to that type of play.
[Emphasis mine] Are these two sentences related? Are you saying that PFO has a steep learning curve and catch up is slow? If not, can you explain the last sentence?
If the last sentence is true, and people regard that as a significant issue/worthy of concern, what steps should PFO or GW take to ameliorate this?
Personally I take each game on its own merits - while I have my own preferences and habits and opinions re: flavor/theme I am moderate enough to recognise the advantages and disadvantages of each particular system and to take all things into consideration. The only real MMORPG I played was the (instanced) Guild Wars and that a handful of years ago...
Each game is different...
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Goblin Squad Member
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@Oceanshield,
At this stage in Alpha you can:
A)Jump in cold feet (no reading or research), fool around, learn by trail and error, ask questions, learn as you go.
B)Jump in warm feet (read the quick start guide, read Cheatle excellent guide, take a look at the PFO wiki); plus everything in point "A".
C)Jump in with hot feet (all of the above, plus Alpha & Paizo forum participation combined with player made tools).
Later in the games development cycle(the nebulous time between EE and OE) need for these things will abate as the game gets better tool tips, a real manual, PFO wiki for reference, a mature player base, and a centralized place for information (Goblinworks.com). It is just not there yet...
Edit: Added <Kabal> Daeglin inspiration for clarification; coffee has yet to kick in...
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Goblin Squad Member
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@ Oceanshield,
The combat system is "simple" in the sense that you slot 6 attack feats and go out and whack things. There is infinite complexity in that how effective you are will be based on Keywords, conditions, effect power, effect protection, gear!!, and probably other things I'm not familiar with. And that does not even take into account if you cross-train to other roles. Similar structure for armour/resistances. This is a game where if you want to play without learning how, you can, but don't expect to be "uber" or even average. The goal is to satisfy a variety of players/playstyles (I believe). You can have people coming from PFRPG with no experience in MMO's who will be able to play and have positive experiences, and very experienced MMO players who can burrow down into the complexities and go nuts with designing their own unique character.
Not sure if that answers your question, but this complexity isn't regarded as a fault of the design, its the intent.
Gates are requirements for training certain feats that are other than experience points. Two common examples are Achievements (accomplishing certain tasks in game) and Ability scores (getting your primary attribute or secondary attribute for the role above a certain value). Both are not completely implemented yet (alpha!!!!) which blocks progression at times, especially the less familiar you are with how the system works.
@Giorgo,
I disagree a bit with what you need to do, i just jumped into alpha and started having a ball :D
But I did read the two guides that Ryan has linked in the Patcher Loading screen when you enter the game, I've grouped up with friendly people who share knowledge, and I haven't cared whether i'm doing things optimally. To each their own :)
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Goblin Squad Member
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Oceanshieldwolf, Ryan's said he wants to avoid the "millions of new players on Day One, most of whom leave post-haste" phenomenon that's happened to so many games. He's planning to guard the doors of entry to Pathfinder Online, allowing only a fixed number to enter each month.
In that way, he hopes to emulate, to some extent, the success of EVE Online, which is the only 11-year-old MMO still growing its player-base. EVE is justly famous for its learning-curve, and PFO's planned feature-set is both deep and broad, necessitating quite a learning-curve, as others have said; the current implementation of that feature-set is, however, limited--also by design.
Goblinworks plans to launch in a state called Minimum Viable Product, and to proceed with design and implementation of more with players live in-game, and no future character wipes. The players will advise and guide the developers through the process of Crowdforging, where we can express our likes, dislikes, preferences, and desires; we will also have to keep in mind that Goblinworks is a small shop (21 people at present, if I remember), and that if we want Thing B, it will almost certainly delay the planned implementation of Thing A that's currently on the schedule.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Oceanshieldwolf:
Nice name!
I'm in alpha, although I haven't been able to play much thanks to the dreaded Real Life monster. (I'm typing this on my iPad while sitting in Mom's hospital room, for instance... she is OK, just a heart episode, but such is the RL monster this werk.). I've been following the forums pretty closely for a couple of years now, though, so I've been prepared, but my husband hasn't. He's been playing WoW for quite a few years now - City of Heroes before that, and Dark Age of Camelot before that. He went into alpha cold, so a quick overview of his experience and reactions might be helpful for you.
(1) The lack of any indication of who to talk to (for the tutorial quests) threw him; and he's still wrapping his head around a self-directed experience without quest chains. It's a big change for him, and really threw him off for a bit. He is, however, happily running around trying to chat with everyone, which has nice social side effects.
(2). He's a bit pouty about the lack of in-game info on "what to buy" - not because he's an optimizer, but because he has no idea what most of the abilities on offer do. That's getting better as he gets more familiar with it, and of course in-game tooltips are being added, but I suspect there will always be a need for some out-of-game research. And I suspect I'll be doing this for him. <sigh>
(3). Bearing in mind the combat issues around rooting and aggro, he's not had any issues with combat, and very much likes the one-click toggle to a second set of equipment/actions.
(4). He LOVES the size of the world. I can't stress this enough!
(5). He's very, very, VERY happy with the community, and with the number of developer posts; I think this alone has sold him on the game. (And a very big thank you to all of you collectively for that - I'd have played even if he didn't, but this is a joint hobby, so thanks for making the difference!)
So there is a learning curve for someone who hasn't been following the forums, and is used to the behemoth that is WoW and its clones, but it's surmountable with some experimenting and talking to people. Be open and flexible, and the alpha group at least will do everything they can to fill in the blanks.
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Goblin Squad Member
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...(1) The lack of any indication of who to talk to (for the tutorial quests) threw him; and he's still wrapping his head around a self-directed experience without quest chains. It's a big change for him, and really threw him off for a bit. He is, however, happily running around trying to chat with everyone, which has nice social side effects.
(2). He's a bit pouty about the lack of in-game info on "what to buy" - not because he's an optimizer, but because he has no idea what most of the abilities on offer do. That's getting better as he gets more familiar with it, and of course in-game tooltips are being added, but I suspect there will always be a need for some out-of-game research. And I suspect I'll be doing this for him. <sigh>...
Regarding 1, I missed the tutorial completely. Wasn't till about week later i found out about it and went back to do it, and even then I didn't complete it and you don't need to. I've noticed some players feel its mandatory to complete because of their experience with intros to other games. Hard to break that :)
Re 2, I cannot stress enough how much reading the Combat Guide helped me. The link is in the Patch Launcher, but you have to scroll down to see it so i think a lot of people miss it. Its a work in progress like everything else but I am sure it will make him feel he has a better grasp.
