Just about to hit lvl 5 on a Bard. Mostly a buff bard with a bow but well..here is my question.
I have heard far too many say that Deadly aim is the way to go as it grands way more Dmg quicker. But so far our DM has been sending us monsters with AC of over 20. Only a few had 18 and only one had less.
At lvl 5 that is a hard to hit target. (we have a dex fighter that our DM wants to educate on why building a dex fighter that way is bad or at least unhygienic)
Long story short. In this case would you still advise towards the Deadly Aim with its -to att or arcane strike that only gives a straight dmg + without the att - ?
Thanks in advance.
I'd second arcane strike. sounds like your arrows are more of something to do rather than a main focus. Hitting is important. hitting twice will usually do more damage than 1 bigger hit. And if you're not using swift actions for anything often, arcane strike will give you some extra damage "for free". You don't really have the same boosters that the Martial characters have to negate the taking penalties for damage.
Did actually find a Short bow +1 also have a bunch of silver arrows.
But yes I am leaning towards Arcane strike more and more. Will ask my DM if high AC encoutners will keep roaming...but I think they will. Our dex fighter and high dmg high dex rouge hit pretty much all the time at their current crazy way too pro builds. ._.
Any other tips on an archer bard? :I need to catch up to those number-crunching pro builders.
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Bard = effectively full BAB due to self buffs. Inspire courage + good hope = +4 attack/damage at 7th level. So even when Deadly Aiming, you probably won't have much trouble hitting past 7th level. Deadly Aim works great for an archer bard with a good Dex. If you have a higher Cha than Dex, then maybe not so much for you.
you're a bard, and the sounds of it, a buffing bard. Use you're spells to multiply their already good power and then try to contribute with arrows. You can't really compete with focused DPR builds with a secondary function of your character. Maybe go for reckless aim to up your hitting chance?
Bard = effectively full BAB due to self buffs. Inspire courage + good hope = +4 attack/damage at 7th level. So even when Deadly Aiming, you probably won't have much trouble hitting past 7th level. Deadly Aim works great for an archer bard with a good Dex. If you have a higher Cha than Dex, then maybe not so much for you.
I thought so as well..until I met Mr.AC25 and his family at lvl 3.
Bard = effectively full BAB due to self buffs. Inspire courage + good hope = +4 attack/damage at 7th level. So even when Deadly Aiming, you probably won't have much trouble hitting past 7th level. Deadly Aim works great for an archer bard with a good Dex. If you have a higher Cha than Dex, then maybe not so much for you.I thought so as well..until I met Mr.AC25 and his family at lvl 3.
This was what I was going to point out too. The fighter and Rogue are probably only able to do so well because of your help. a +4 attack at lv 7 gives a 9+dex to hit, if their already going up against AC 20 at lv5 they'll be looking at about 50% hit rate against the even higher AC.
OP, it looks like the GM is wanting to make it harder for the melee spec people, so you should try to boost them, go for touch attacks, or target some sort of saving throw. You'll probably have a hard time hitting and dealing much damage comparatively no matter what you do. Also, I'm curious as to what the fighter is doing that the DM want's to show is wrong.
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Any other tips on an archer bard? :I need to catch up to those number-crunching pro builders.
Get a lesser rod of extend metamagic and keep heroism up on yourself; replace with good hope when it becomes available. Inspire courage most of the time (you should have plenty of rounds available). Haste when it really matters.
Point Blank Shot, Precise Shot, Rapid Shot, Arcane Strike, Deadly Aim, in roughly that order. Manyshot and Improved Precise Shot when you can qualify for them (i.e., later on). Rapid Shot and Manyshot are key because the extra attacks let you effectively multiply the extra damage from inspire courage and good hope. Don't underestimate the value of Weapon Focus and Improved Critical, if you find yourself with a feat slot you're not sure how to fill.
Wear the best belt of incredible dexterity you can afford.
Buy durable arrows in silver, cold iron, and adamantine and be sure to recover them after every fight. Keep some blanched with ghost salt for incorporeals. Also keep an oil of bless weapon and an oil of align weapon on hand.
Bard = effectively full BAB due to self buffs. Inspire courage + good hope = +4 attack/damage at 7th level. So even when Deadly Aiming, you probably won't have much trouble hitting past 7th level. Deadly Aim works great for an archer bard with a good Dex. If you have a higher Cha than Dex, then maybe not so much for you.I thought so as well..until I met Mr.AC25 and his family at lvl 3.This was what I was going to point out too. The fighter and Rogue are probably only able to do so well because of your help. a +4 attack at lv 7 gives a 9+dex to hit, if their already going up against AC 20 at lv5 they'll be looking at about 50% hit rate against the even higher AC.
OP, it looks like the GM is wanting to make it harder for the melee spec people, so you should try to boost them, go for touch attacks, or target some sort of saving throw. You'll probably have a hard time hitting and dealing much damage comparatively no matter what you do. Also, I'm curious as to what the fighter is doing that the DM want's to show is wrong.
:D We all did a good DEX roll. I ended up rolling decent DEX and CHA. 16 DEX 16 CHA.
So not as good at the dex roughe and the dex ninja and the full dex fighter. DM had to compensate a tiny bit for that char combo I suppose. So even if my DEX is not bad, had to adopt the more buffing position.
My DPR has been badly outclassed in the last session. My 1d6+2 is no match for my friends 1d6+5 + 2d6 sneak +1d4+2 from a cursed item
As for what he does wrong...he made a dex fighter with almost no con or str. (up till lvl 4 he had the least hp in our party) Our sorceress matches him in str. He does not want to wear heavy armour not to loose max dex mod wearing rather light armour than heavy...such things.
:D We all did a good DEX roll. I ended up rolling decent DEX and CHA. 16 DEX 16 CHA.So not as good at the dex roughe and the dex ninja and the full dex fighter. DM had to compensate a tiny bit for that char combo I suppose. So even if my DEX is not bad, had to adopt the more buffing position.
My DPR has been badly outclassed in the last session. My 1d6+2 is no match for my friends 1d6+5 + 2d6 sneak +1d4+2 from a cursed itemAs for what he does wrong...he made a dex fighter with almost no con or str. (up till lvl 4 he had the least hp in our party) Our sorceress matches him in str. He does not want to wear heavy armour not to loose max dex mod wearing rather light armour than heavy...such things.
yeah, you're not going to get anywhere close to that damage. I'd say build towards things the others can't do. And just keep buffing.
Also a dex fighter is perfectly fine. You'll do a bit less damage, but tell him to go for mithral armor, that and his Armor Training will let him use most if not all of his dex, but will really up his overall AC.
Example. His dex mod is 6 because he has a 22 dex. He's level 5 so 1 level of armor training. that means that mithral fullplate allows 4 dex and gives 9 ac. total AC=23, no armor AC=16. And it doesn't reduce for anything but AC, so weapon finesse isn't effected by the armor limit. Same idea for using medium armor, it'll give more AC overall because of mithral and fighter armor training.
as for your damage comparison:
it depends on your choices. if you want to buff, you will sacrifice damage. if you don't want to buff, you can pull out some damage too.
p.e. if you had arcane strike + rapid shot +your buffs on you, you would be pulling something like 1d6+4 x 3 arrows /round for 3d6 +12.
with just deadly aim that would be 3d6+18 and etc
The biggest thing the OP is worried about is hitting the target. The enemies have AC around 17+cr from the sounds of it. Yes a bard wanting to be super archer probably could find feats and boosts to make hitting that possible and possibly getting some damage behind those arrows too. But I don't think they've invested into archer a lot, they said they are mainly a buffer with a bow. Sounds to me like the bow is what they do when they've done their team buffs. So they should focus on hitting the target, or focus on going against something other than AC, like touch AC or saves. Would probably be easier to target those then being comparable to the other classes.
Bard = effectively full BAB due to self buffs. Inspire courage + good hope = +4 attack/damage at 7th level. So even when Deadly Aiming, you probably won't have much trouble hitting past 7th level. Deadly Aim works great for an archer bard with a good Dex. If you have a higher Cha than Dex, then maybe not so much for you.
Not really. BAB increase your deadly aim damage and you gain iterative attacks. This is what makes deadly aim good. As well in fight that +4 to hit and damage applies to the Full BAB character as well as their class features. So in this case a archer ranger against a favored enemy would be +20/+20/+15 using deadly aim. A bard would +13/+8 assuming fair play the ranger could give you +2 to hit and damage with hunters bond too for +15/+10. This assumes a 15 pt build. Clearly full BAB is superior even if the enemy is not ranger favored the ranger's attack goes down by 4 and the bard's goes down 2.
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Just about to hit lvl 5 on a Bard. Mostly a buff bard with a bow but well..here is my question.
I have heard far too many say that Deadly aim is the way to go as it grands way more Dmg quicker. But so far our DM has been sending us monsters with AC of over 20. Only a few had 18 and only one had less.
At lvl 5 that is a hard to hit target. (we have a dex fighter that our DM wants to educate on why building a dex fighter that way is bad or at least unhygienic)
Long story short. In this case would you still advise towards the Deadly Aim with its -to att or arcane strike that only gives a straight dmg + without the att - ?
Thanks in advance.
If you're only concerned about damage, your average damage per round is very slightly higher with Deadly Aim than with Arcane Strike. But the difference is so slight (~0.1 point), it's probably not worth factoring into your decision.
Overall: Deadly Aim only hurts you when the attack penalty drops your to-hit chance below 25%. If your to-hit chance is around 30-35%, you'll do about the same amount of damage whether or not you use Deadly Aim. If your to-hit chance is 40% or higher, your average damage is higher with Deadly Aim.
Just about to hit lvl 5 on a Bard. Mostly a buff bard with a bow but well..here is my question.
I have heard far too many say that Deadly aim is the way to go as it grands way more Dmg quicker. But so far our DM has been sending us monsters with AC of over 20. Only a few had 18 and only one had less.
At lvl 5 that is a hard to hit target. (we have a dex fighter that our DM wants to educate on why building a dex fighter that way is bad or at least unhygienic)
Long story short. In this case would you still advise towards the Deadly Aim with its -to att or arcane strike that only gives a straight dmg + without the att - ?
Thanks in advance.
If you're only concerned about damage, your average damage per round is very slightly higher with Deadly Aim than with Arcane Strike. But the difference is so slight (~0.1 point), it's probably not worth factoring into your decision.
Overall: Deadly Aim only hurts you when the attack penalty drops your to-hit chance below 25%. If your to-hit chance is around 30-35%, you'll do about the same amount of damage whether or not you use Deadly Aim. If your to-hit chance is 40% or higher, your average damage is higher with Deadly Aim.
Thanks, well thanks all really.
Will actually take this as the most amazing repond so far for the sake of ending the thread.
I think I might take Arcane Strike in the end. The dmg difference is not that huge and the AC will probably jump up. If, IF I get an extra feat to waste, maybe deadly aim.
Love you all <3
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Bard = effectively full BAB due to self buffs. Inspire courage + good hope = +4 attack/damage at 7th level. So even when Deadly Aiming, you probably won't have much trouble hitting past 7th level. Deadly Aim works great for an archer bard with a good Dex. If you have a higher Cha than Dex, then maybe not so much for you.Not really. BAB increase your deadly aim damage and you gain iterative attacks. This is what makes deadly aim good. As well in fight that +4 to hit and damage applies to the Full BAB character as well as their class features. So in this case a archer ranger against a favored enemy would be +20/+20/+15 using deadly aim. A bard would +13/+8 assuming fair play the ranger could give you +2 to hit and damage with hunters bond too for +15/+10. This assumes a 15 pt build. Clearly full BAB is superior even if the enemy is not ranger favored the ranger's attack goes down by 4 and the bard's goes down 2.
If your point of comparison is a ranger with bard buffs attacking highest FE, vs. bard with bard buffs, then yes, the ranger wins... obviously.
The comparison I was making was bard with bard buffs vs. full BA class without. Clearly there are ways to make the full BA class pull ahead.
AC 25 at level 3? That's a bit much unless the thing was hitting like a newborn kitten. A character or NPC should be sacrificing a lot of offense in order to pump their defense to such heights. That, or your DM is pretty vicious. If this is what you can look forward to in the future, I'd definitely go with Arcane Strike.
AC 25 at level 3? That's a bit much unless the thing was hitting like a newborn kitten. A character or NPC should be sacrificing a lot of offense in order to pump their defense to such heights. That, or your DM is pretty vicious. If this is what you can look forward to in the future, I'd definitely go with Arcane Strike.
Yeah, AC 25 is high for level 5 (Monster Creation table suggests 21 at CR 6). I'm hoping it was a tiny or diminutive creature that did 1d3-1 on a hit...like a 3-week old kitten, maybe.
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AC 25 at level 3? That's a bit much unless the thing was hitting like a newborn kitten. A character or NPC should be sacrificing a lot of offense in order to pump their defense to such heights. That, or your DM is pretty vicious. If this is what you can look forward to in the future, I'd definitely go with Arcane Strike.Yeah, AC 25 is high for level 5 (Monster Creation table suggests 21 at CR 6). I'm hoping it was a tiny or diminutive creature that did 1d3-1 on a hit...like a 3-week old kitten, maybe.
Or it was a well built NPC. It's not that hard. If you're using traits on NPCs, you can get it without magical gear.
Full plate
Heavy shield
Dex of 12
trait that gives +1 with heavy armor (forget what it's called)
shield focus feat
Heck - my bard hit AC25 by level 3 or 4. (forget which)
AC 25 at level 3? That's a bit much unless the thing was hitting like a newborn kitten. A character or NPC should be sacrificing a lot of offense in order to pump their defense to such heights. That, or your DM is pretty vicious. If this is what you can look forward to in the future, I'd definitely go with Arcane Strike.Yeah, AC 25 is high for level 5 (Monster Creation table suggests 21 at CR 6). I'm hoping it was a tiny or diminutive creature that did 1d3-1 on a hit...like a 3-week old kitten, maybe.Or it was a well built NPC. It's not that hard. If you're using traits on NPCs, you can get it without magical gear.
Full plate
Heavy shield
Dex of 12
trait that gives +1 with heavy armor (forget what it's called)
shield focus featHeck - my bard hit AC25 by level 3 or 4. (forget which)
I didn't say it was impossible, I said he'd have to sacrifice offense in order to have an AC like that. Spending your limited resources on full plate, a trait on increasing your armour bonus, a feat on increasing your shield bonus (and two feats to get heavy armour proficiency for your bard) means that you've sacrificed your offense and should be hitting like a newborn kitten while sporting your 25 AC. You've invested all your resources into defense.
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I didn't say it was impossible, I said he'd have to sacrifice offense in order to have an AC like that. Spending your limited resources on full plate, a trait on increasing your armour bonus, a feat on increasing your shield bonus (and two feats to get heavy armour proficiency for your bard) means that you've sacrificed your offense and should be hitting like a newborn kitten while sporting your 25 AC. You've invested all your resources into defense.
I never said that was the build I used for my bard. Just using it as a 2nd example.
My bard needed magiced armor/shield etc to get to AC25.
The build was just an example of a fighter etc who could get to AC25 sans magic relatively easily. And for a fighter, spending a feat on extra AC isn't really that bad of an idea.
*sigh* To reiterate the point that seems to have been missed in favour of nit-picking: if that encounter with the AC 25 NPC at level 3 (not level 5) was par for the course in OP's game, Arcane Strike is a better choice than Deadly Aim.
AC 25 at level 3? That's a bit much unless the thing was hitting like a newborn kitten. A character or NPC should be sacrificing a lot of offense in order to pump their defense to such heights. That, or your DM is pretty vicious. If this is what you can look forward to in the future, I'd definitely go with Arcane Strike.
Ouf DM is the latter :D admirably!
Well it was so to say a Boss type battle, but most so far had a pretty high AC. Something to do with proving a point why all characters all dex is a bad idea and leaves us unflexible.They where no pushovers either. 3 unconscious so far.
Hideous laughter and Grease did save our skins a few times actually. So tough DM but not impossible.
Bard = effectively full BAB due to self buffs. Inspire courage + good hope = +4 attack/damage at 7th level. So even when Deadly Aiming, you probably won't have much trouble hitting past 7th level. Deadly Aim works great for an archer bard with a good Dex. If you have a higher Cha than Dex, then maybe not so much for you.I thought so as well..until I met Mr.AC25 and his family at lvl 3.
All your GM is proving is that as the GM he can always make things difficult. Normally deadly aim is better.
I am going to add my vote to arcane strike, due to the new riving strike feat.
It is basically a 1 turn Evil Eye hex when it comes down to spells. A nice little -2 debuff that has no save (well, it is kind of like an evil eye that was saved against...but that remaining effectiveness was a main draw for evil eye anyway) and can be done from just about any distance with your bow.
Taking the feat that leads to that seems kind of worth while, particularly since it adds at least some extra damage to your attacks. The swift action also looks well used with that.
Yeesh! A -2 to saves with no save is pretty hot.
I am going to add my vote to arcane strike, due to the new riving strike feat.
It is basically a 1 turn Evil Eye hex when it comes down to spells. A nice little -2 debuff that has no save (well, it is kind of like an evil eye that was saved against...but that remaining effectiveness was a main draw for evil eye anyway) and can be done from just about any distance with your bow.
Taking the feat that leads to that seems kind of worth while, particularly since it adds at least some extra damage to your attacks. The swift action also looks well used with that.
Does seem quite nice actually. Does the 1 round -2 also still apply in my next round?
If not I might not take it only because there is just one sorcerer the rest are boring old pure weapon builds.
I wish riving strike wasn't limited to Spells or SLAs. No supernatural or extraordinary abilities mean it wont help hexes, monk stunning fist, several domain abilities, and so on. Still pretty sweet though.
Extraordinary and supernatural need to be a bit op, it's in the name P: