Pathfinder Adventure, Adventure Path, Rulebook Subscriber
I'm building a Kensai Magus and am unsure if dipping is worth it. I really see two options:
Swashbuckler for weapon finesse, +1 BAB and some panache abilities.
Brawler for +1 BAB, limited use martial flexibility, and improved unarmed strike.
Brawler would give easier access to kirin strike (is it even worth it?) and swashbuckler gives easier access to slashing grace.
I understand what I lose from dipping, and I'm not looking for a comparison of what is gained vs what is lost.
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As a general rule, thou shalt not lose caster levels.. I think the spells you get are probably worth more than a +1 BAB and a feat.
Kirin Strike is typically a trap: You already use all of your swift actions.
When optimizing, Swashbuckler is decent. It gives you some more HP, a free, supped up feat (Weapon finesse with a Katana? Yes please!), some cool abilities that you can use as often as you get critical hits, all the while with Full BaB.
If you wanted to be a Dexterity based one-handed slashing weapon user, Swashbuckler is a great, if not necessary dip (Note that slashing grace does not give you the ability to use weapon finesse with those weapons, just damage).
1 Caster Level will not kill. CL can be replaced with a trait, so the only places you'll really suffer is # of spells (Not too bad a deal) and when you can get those spells. So, it's not the worst tradeoff, especially for a Magus thats already focused more on the martial side of things.
BTW, have you checked out the Kensai Guide?
Pathfinder Adventure, Adventure Path, Rulebook Subscriber
Orfamay Quest wrote: As a general rule, thou shalt not lose caster levels.. I think the spells you get are probably worth more than a +1 BAB and a feat.
Again, I understand this. Caster levels isn't the goal of the character.
Pathfinder Adventure, Adventure Path, Rulebook Subscriber
FrodoOf9Fingers wrote: BTW, have you checked out the Kensai Guide? I have, and I don't really like the guides because it's one person's opinion and never covers all possible options. You are probably right on the swift actions though
Some Other Guy wrote: Orfamay Quest wrote: As a general rule, thou shalt not lose caster levels.. I think the spells you get are probably worth more than a +1 BAB and a feat.
Again, I understand this. Then why did you ask if it was worth it?
It's not worth it.
There aren't a lot of great Arcana options, so fitting in Flamboyant Arcana and then an Arcane Deed or two is easy. This makes Swashbuckler lose its appeal beyond granting Weapon Finesse. You'd have to be giving me a really, really good feat before I'd willingly slow my entire character progression... and Finesse isn't that good. You can easily get Slashing Grace at level 1 if you're a Human anyway; if you're not it should come at level 3.
There are really no good options coming off the Brawler. IUS is crap for a Magus; carry around a pair of Spiked Gauntlets instead. They can work off your Precise Strike if you grab it, and are much cheaper to magic up (Spell Storing Spiked Gauntlets can be lifesavers). Kirin Style takes up a precious Swift Action, when the Magus easily has 3-4 things competing for that swift action. Martial Flexibility is nice but at that level, limited-use is right.
I reiterate:
Slashing Grace does NOT grant dexterity to ATK. So, if you plan on getting Slashing Grace, you'll be using strength for attack instead of dexterity unless you take a dip into swashbuckler. There is no other way to really get full potential out of slashing grace.
FrodoOf9Fingers wrote: Slashing Grace does NOT grant dexterity to ATK. So, if you plan on getting Slashing Grace, you'll be using strength for attack instead of dexterity unless you take a dip into swashbuckler. There is no other way to really get full potential out of slashing grace. Unless you use a whip or Aldori dueling sword.
Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber
I think the Swashbuckler dip is definitely worth it if you're planning to use Fencing Grace and a Rapier. Specifically, the Inspired Blade archetype is great for it.
You get more Panache, since it's based on your Intelligence, and you can take Fencing Grace at first level without having to be Human.
ZZTRaider wrote: I think the Swashbuckler dip is definitely worth it if you're planning to use Fencing Grace and a Rapier. Specifically, the Inspired Blade archetype is great for it.
You get more Panache, since it's based on your Intelligence, and you can take Fencing Grace at first level without having to be Human.
Once Fencing Grace comes out, the sole advantage of the Swashbuckler dip is neutered. Right now it has some value in that it lets you use a better weapon with Slashing Grace than you can normally, since most Slashing Grace applicable weapons are not Weapon Finessable. Come Fencing Grace that story changes.
Although a Kensai can easily take the whip, sawtooth saber, or the dueling sword, so slashing grace is usable by a kensai without dipping swashbuckler.
kestral287 wrote: ZZTRaider wrote: I think the Swashbuckler dip is definitely worth it if you're planning to use Fencing Grace and a Rapier. Specifically, the Inspired Blade archetype is great for it.
You get more Panache, since it's based on your Intelligence, and you can take Fencing Grace at first level without having to be Human.
Once Fencing Grace comes out, the sole advantage of the Swashbuckler dip is neutered. Right now it has some value in that it lets you use a better weapon with Slashing Grace than you can normally, since most Slashing Grace applicable weapons are not Weapon Finessable. Come Fencing Grace that story changes. You quoted the argument made by ZZTRaider, but then completely ignored the content.
Fencing Grace/Slashing Grace is not the sole advantage of the Swashbuckler dip; having the panache pool in addition to your arcane pool is invaluable, not only because it's more points for your parries and ripostes, but also because panache points are more easily replaced than arcana. (Weapon Finesse for free is also a noteworthy benefit, albeit less important.)
Unless you're an Eldritch Scion, your Cha is going to be 10 at the high end, so you have a panache pool of one. I would rather keep my useful deeds drawing from the non-replenishable pool than the one that I have to be extremely careful with.
If you are an Eldritch Scion it becomes an option, admittedly.
Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber
kestral287 wrote: Unless you're an Eldritch Scion, your Cha is going to be 10 at the high end, so you have a panache pool of one. I would rather keep my useful deeds drawing from the non-replenishable pool than the one that I have to be extremely careful with.
If you are an Eldritch Scion it becomes an option, admittedly.
Which is why specifically mentioned the Inspired Blade archetype, which changes Panache to be Int + Cha, minimum 1 each. So even with 7 Cha and 7 Int, you'd still end up with 2 Panache. Of course, a Kensai Magus will have far better Int than that.
A Panache pool of 4 (at the low end) that regains a point every time you critical with your Rapier is far more useful than burning points out of the Arcane Pool to repeatedly Parry. The Kensai, especially when Dex-based, has huge potential for absurd numbers of AoOs to burn on Parrying.
(Moms?) monk. 2 levels for wis to AC, evasion, IUS, Stunning Fist, 2 bonus feats and +3 on saves. With the High AC possible on a kensai getting a bit more AC is never bad.
If you are not lawfull go with a Martial artist monk instead.
ZZTRaider wrote: kestral287 wrote: Unless you're an Eldritch Scion, your Cha is going to be 10 at the high end, so you have a panache pool of one. I would rather keep my useful deeds drawing from the non-replenishable pool than the one that I have to be extremely careful with.
If you are an Eldritch Scion it becomes an option, admittedly.
Which is why specifically mentioned the Inspired Blade archetype, which changes Panache to be Int + Cha, minimum 1 each. So even with 7 Cha and 7 Int, you'd still end up with 2 Panache. Of course, a Kensai Magus will have far better Int than that.
A Panache pool of 4 (at the low end) that regains a point every time you critical with your Rapier is far more useful than burning points out of the Arcane Pool to repeatedly Parry. The Kensai, especially when Dex-based, has huge potential for absurd numbers of AoOs to burn on Parrying. One day, I'll get all these new archetypes straight; I was thinking Inspired Blade was a different one entirely. Okay, so you get a usable pool out of the Inspired Blade at the cost of being locked into a Rapier (not really a problem once Fencing Grace comes out, screws you until then) and get a more limited Weapon Finesse. Not a miserable trade-off, all things considered.
I'm frankly still not convinced it's a valid idea unless you plan on ignoring Precise Strike off the Arcane Deed, since a lot of the abilities you pick up along the way get redundant save for the ability to pull them out of a different pool. If you don't plan to go for Flamboyant Arcana it's better, but losing more spells off a Kensai still bites.
And it also raises a question-- what happens to the Kensai Weapon Focus? It's supposed to be with the Kensai 'chosen weapon', which matters for a few other abilities (most notably, Canny Defense). Would it simply be wasted if your chosen weapon is the rapier (as you already get Weapon Focus in that) or would you be forced to pick a legal Weapon Focus and are therefore screwed unless you take Kensai first?
As I recall, a Kensai gives up spell recall, so I'm going to go against the grain here and say you'll have swift actions available if you go for that, since you'll essentially only be using them to enchant your weapon at the start of combat. That's assuming you're not going for the swashbuckler abilities if you go brawler.
Some arcana/feats could change that though (arcane accuracy/arcane strike/etc.)
Now that I think of it, I really like arcane strike for extra damage (when you can afford it) and the new ACG feat Riving Strike. I have a hexcrafter going that route with the swashbuckler arcana instead of multiclassing. Tasty.
Arcane Accuracy is a wonderful arcana and uses your Swift Actions. So does a bunch of the Swashbuckler stuff. Eventually, you'll probably get a Lesser Rod of Quicken and that's another pull on the Swift Action.
Riving Strike is kind of awesome though.
kestral287 wrote: Unless you're an Eldritch Scion, your Cha is going to be 10 at the high end, so you have a panache pool of one. I would rather keep my useful deeds drawing from the non-replenishable pool than the one that I have to be extremely careful with. Cha 10 presumes the magus in question doesn't get a charisma boosting item to expand their panache pool. That being said, you don't have to be careful at all - it's replenished every time you confirm a crit or kill something. Blow it every opportunity you get, since you've got your arcane pool for backup when it's empty.
kestral287 wrote: And it also raises a question-- what happens to the Kensai Weapon Focus? It's supposed to be with the Kensai 'chosen weapon', which matters for a few other abilities (most notably, Canny Defense). Would it simply be wasted if your chosen weapon is the rapier (as you already get Weapon Focus in that) or would you be forced to pick a legal Weapon Focus and are therefore screwed unless you take... Unless you work out some kind of drug deal with your GM (i.e. house rule), it essentially becomes a wasted feat. I'd be hard-pressed before I accepted a situation like that, but it wouldn't be without merit; if you wanted to use a rapier anyway, you're trading away a class feature you didn't intend to use for added INT synergy.
Cap. Darling wrote: (Moms?) monk. 2 levels for wis to AC, evasion, IUS, Stunning Fist, 2 bonus feats and +3 on saves. With the High AC possible on a kensai getting a bit more AC is never bad.
If you are not lawfull go with a Martial artist monk instead.
Looking at a Kensai/Monk build myself! I built him with the Flowing Monk archetype, 3 lvls, to get their Flowing Dodge (+1AC for each opponent adjacent, up to WIS bonus), the rest all Kensai magus. Insane AC for someone with no armor! Plus some of the Style feats - I took some Crane because it fit the concept of the character. (I'm not an optimizer - I just love cool character concepts.)
Was at work so didn't read all the responses, but depending on weapon style your going for.
Titan Mauluer (barbarian) for 2 levels gives you Jotun's Grasp. Wield a 2 hander as a 1 hander.
Great weapon then is the "Elven Curve Blade"
I don't think anyone can really answer this question unless we know what you feel like your build is missing.
Do you want more damage? Hit more often? Do you fail saves a lot? Do you want more social flexibility? Suggestions are going to be different depending on what you run.
I'll second the monk suggestion, especially if you're already dex focused - a bonus to all your saves is great. Flowing Monk is ok, but I'd strongly recommend either Sohei or Master of Many Styles. Free style feats are great, and if you have a good initiative then acting in every surprise round is awesome.
A swashbuckler dip has the potential of upping your damage significantly, though flamboyant arcana and arcane deed are usually better for raw damage (and you keep your caster levels).
Two levels of alchemist can make it far easier to get away with Rod usage while using spell combat.
Dipping wizard to widen your spell list can be helpful.
So, really, it all just depends.
FrodoOf9Fingers wrote: If you wanted to be a Dexterity based one-handed slashing weapon user, Swashbuckler is a great, if not necessary dip (Note that slashing grace does not give you the ability to use weapon finesse with those weapons, just damage). It does when combined with the Swashbuckler's finesse instead of normal weapon finesse. Without the Swashbuckler dip, the only weapon slashing grace is useful for is a aldori dueling sword.
I also agree that it isn't wise to lose a spell caster level but with magus there are some worth a thought...
1) bard for bardic knowledge. Not great but in small parties where knowledge is needed badly this makes it attractive. Only need a single level and you do get a few spells in exchange.
2) vanilla monk. If your kensai wants to actually touch someone rather using a weapon, then why not?
3) swashbuckler. Haven't done it myself but I hear its good for a very select few weapons.
Take a look at investigator. You get a ton of class skills, it's Intelligence-based. It has some nice archetypes...sleuth is swashbuckler-y, spiritualist has some interesting low-level spells.
Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
It's not just the caster level...it's delaying everything else in the magus progression (and possibly losing out on the capstone) that stings.
On the other hand I am not familiar with the nuances of the OP's campaign so if it helps rounds out his character the way he wants then by all means. So with that said, then yes monk or swashbuckler dips are very good.
Never thought about monk, but that would let you get Deflect Arrows (using your free hand) easily.
Wolfwaker wrote: Never thought about monk, but that would let you get Deflect Arrows (using your free hand) easily. Do you really want Deflect Arrows that badly?
Renegadeshepherd wrote: 3) swashbuckler. Haven't done it myself but I hear its good for a very select few weapons. Not worth blowing your progression for the extra 1 point of damage. Stick with Dervish Dance until Fencing Grace becomes available.
Artanthos wrote: Renegadeshepherd wrote: 3) swashbuckler. Haven't done it myself but I hear its good for a very select few weapons. Not worth blowing your progression for the extra 1 point of damage. Stick with Dervish Dance until Fencing Grace becomes available. IF it was just 1 point more of damage, then it'd be a waste. But it isn't...
If this was a question for dipping from any other archetype than the Kensai, then I wouldn't recommend it. But a Kensai really does benefit from a dip, since a good portion of his damage (especially early on) will be physical damage. While none of what you do get is amazing in and of itself, the sum total makes it a worth while to consider.
Benefits:
A free feat
Widened range of weapon choices
First level deeds (All of which are good for you)
Panache Pool (Refreshes itself on critical hits)
No loss of BaB progression
+2 reflex saves
2 more HP (if taken at level 1, otherwise 1 more HP on average)
2 more skill points
An average of 35 more gold
Losses:
1 Level behind for ability and spell progression
and... ?
Tis not to be dismissed so quickly. If your planning on using a high critical range weapon, and are planning on being dexterity based, it's certainly worth looking at.
Losses:
1 level behind for ability and spell progression.
This is huge. The Magus is already slowed in spell progression. The Kensai is slowed further. Why would you push that down even more?
I mean, if the Magus' spell list just sucked, that'd be one thing... but their list is actually pretty awesome.
Honestly, I don't care for Pathfinder Kensai. I think they are very underpowered. They are fighters with fewer feats and lower BAB. They are spellcasters with diminished casting. They are magi who can't wear armor. I see nothing but bad here. If you really love it, I recommend against being a Kensai and dipping in something else and rather be something else and dip into Magus Kensai.
I think the coolest thing about Kensai is the Perfect Strike ability. You do maximum damage. It only works for 1 strike. Since it costs an Arcane Pool point, it takes a Swift Action, which means only 1/round. These facts suggest the best way to exploit Perfect Strike use it is with a Greatsword, and to get Whirlwind Attack. With that, you also maximize the effect of Power Attack, your Arcane Pool, and Spell Combat effects like Shocking Grasp. But again, many of these things are diminished when you are a Kensai. Plus your armor choices are severely limited when you are a Kensai, and that's bad when you are trying to use Whirlwind Attack.
I hope my ideas are helpful. This is a rough idea of what I might do with Kensai.
1Fighter1: Halfling, Fleet of Foot, Expertise, Dodge
2F2: Risky Striker
3F3: Mobility
4F4: Spring Attack
5F4Magus1: Kensai, Canny Defense +1, Arcane Pool, Weapon Focus Greatsword, Spell Combat
Since you have diminished casting, you might not have any spells, anyway, when you do, I recommend a Darkleaf Cloth Hide Shirt with a +3 armor bonus and only a 5% Arcane Spell Failure.
6F4M2: Spell Strike, Canny Defense +2
7F4M3: Weapon Specialization Greatsword, Magus Arcana
8F4M4: Perfect Strike
kestral287 wrote: Wolfwaker wrote: Never thought about monk, but that would let you get Deflect Arrows (using your free hand) easily. Do you really want Deflect Arrows that badly? I have to admit I don't have a ton of play experience but it always seemed like a really awesome power to be able to automatically block an arrow. Maybe they don't come up that often, though.
FrodoOf9Fingers wrote:
First level deeds (All of which are good for you)
If you plan on picking up Precise Strike, you are still required to take Flamboyant Arcana. There is no advantage to gaining the deeds from a second source.
Scott Wilhelm wrote: Honestly, I don't care for Pathfinder Kensai. I think they are very underpowered. They are fighters with fewer feats and lower BAB. They are spellcasters with diminished casting. They are magi who can't wear armor. I see nothing but bad here. If you really love it, I recommend against being a Kensai and dipping in something else and rather be something else and dip into Magus Kensai.
I think the coolest thing about Kensai is the Perfect Strike ability. You do maximum damage. It only works for 1 strike. Since it costs an Arcane Pool point, it takes a Swift Action, which means only 1/round. These facts suggest the best way to exploit Perfect Strike use it is with a Greatsword, and to get Whirlwind Attack. With that, you also maximize the effect of Power Attack, your Arcane Pool, and Spell Combat effects like Shocking Grasp. But again, many of these things are diminished when you are a Kensai. Plus your armor choices are severely limited when you are a Kensai, and that's bad when you are trying to use Whirlwind Attack.
I don't think I've every used Perfect Strike (which does not list an action cost).
I enjoy the sum total of the kensai's abilities and the way they come together to make something greater than the sum of its parts. If built for it, a Kensai can be very high AC and good on all saves. He can have stacking damage bonuses that come close to the fighter's and, when needed, can act as a wizard at the same time.
Look past the Shocking Grasp schtick and you'll find a front line combatant with more than a few tricks up his sleeve.
That's the wonderful thing about this game, people can make the characters they want. All in all, a 1-level dip isn't going to make or break the character. There are plenty of other areas to build in and improve/weaken them.
So stop trying to convince each other that one is wrong!
I apologize that I am about to do exactly what you didn't want, but your post kinda showed that you didn't think about your dip options very much.
Martial Prowess: Your melee combat ability
Spellcasting: Your spellcasting ability
Skill Monkey: Your ability to use skills effectively
Options: Your choices in and out of combat
Dipping choices:
Investigator(sleuth)
+1 to Skill Monkey(+.5 if have Charisma)
+1 to Options
-.5 to Martial Prowess
-1 to Spellcasting
Swashbuckler(Inspired Blade)
+1 to Martial Prowess(+.5 if using rapier, +.5 if have Charisma)
-1 to spellcasting
Brawler(Wild Child)
+1 to Martial Prowess
+.5 to Options
+1 level 1 Animal Companion(it's free and a mount if you need one, if it's a game not going beyond level 5-6 then you can take boon companion and have basically a full companion)
-1 to Spellcasting
Monk(MoMS+Kata)
+1 to Martial Prowess(+.5 if have Wisdom, +.5 if have Charisma )
+.5 to Options
-1 to Spellcasting
Sorceror(Crossblooded)
+.5 Options(From Bloodline)
+.5 Spellcasting(+.5 if have Charisma)
-1 Martial Prowess
Artanthos wrote: FrodoOf9Fingers wrote:
First level deeds (All of which are good for you)
If you plan on picking up Precise Strike, you are still required to take Flamboyant Arcana. There is no advantage to gaining the deeds from a second source. Sure there is: A regenerating source of points. Arcane pool is precious, and should be used for important things like arcane strike. If you have access to a pool of panache, you can use that instead for your first level deeds over and over with little consequence, since you'll get back your panache with every critical hit. I personally would never use the first level deeds except with panache.
Artanthos wrote: Scott Wilhelm wrote: Honestly, I don't care for Pathfinder Kensai. I think they are very underpowered. They are fighters with fewer feats and lower BAB. They are spellcasters with diminished casting. They are magi who can't wear armor. I see nothing but bad here. If you really love it, I recommend against being a Kensai and dipping in something else and rather be something else and dip into Magus Kensai.
I think the coolest thing about Kensai is the Perfect Strike ability. You do maximum damage. It only works for 1 strike. Since it costs an Arcane Pool point, it takes a Swift Action, which means only 1/round. These facts suggest the best way to exploit Perfect Strike use it is with a Greatsword, and to get Whirlwind Attack. With that, you also maximize the effect of Power Attack, your Arcane Pool, and Spell Combat effects like Shocking Grasp. But again, many of these things are diminished when you are a Kensai. Plus your armor choices are severely limited when you are a Kensai, and that's bad when you are trying to use Whirlwind Attack.
I don't think I've every used Perfect Strike (which does not list an action cost).
I enjoy the sum total of the kensai's abilities and the way they come together to make something greater than the sum of its parts. If built for it, a Kensai can be very high AC and good on all saves. He can have stacking damage bonuses that come close to the fighter's and, when needed, can act as a wizard at the same time.
Look past the Shocking Grasp schtick and you'll find a front line combatant with more than a few tricks up his sleeve. The last thing I want to be is the one who clucks and tsks and says it cannot be done. I am offering the best minmaxing, rules-based advice I can. I don't really want to tell people they can't be Kensai, but I do want to tell people where I'm coming from, so they can keep perspective on my advice.
I'll keep an eye on the thread for advice on cool Kensai builds. I hope the build I offered gives people insight.
Artanthos wrote: I don't think I've every used Perfect Strike (which does not list an action cost). It doesn't list an action cost. But it does say that it costs and Arcane Pool point. Under Arcane pool, it says it costs a swift action to use a point. I might be mistaken, but I believe that means that for the Kensai to use Perfect Strike, it costs 1 Arcane Pool Point, and therefore 1 Swift Action.
I'd certainly feel better about Kensai if there were no action cost.
Scott Wilhelm wrote: Artanthos wrote: I don't think I've every used Perfect Strike (which does not list an action cost). It doesn't list an action cost. But it does say that it costs and Arcane Pool point. Under Arcane pool, it says it costs a swift action to use a point. I might be mistaken, but I believe that means that for the Kensai to use Perfect Strike, it costs 1 Arcane Pool Point, and therefore 1 Swift Action.
I'd certainly feel better about Kensai if there were no action cost. Arcane Pool wrote: At 1st level, a magus can expend 1 point from his arcane pool as a swift action to grant any weapon he is holding a +1 enhancement bonus for 1 minute. A swift action is required for this specific usage of the Arcane Pool. Other arcana that have an action cost state that cost explicitly.
Scott Wilhelm wrote: Honestly, I don't care for Pathfinder Kensai. I think they are very underpowered. They are fighters with fewer feats and lower BAB. They are spellcasters with diminished casting. They are magi who can't wear armor. I see nothing but bad here. If you really love it, I recommend against being a Kensai and dipping in something else and rather be something else and dip into Magus Kensai. Here's another way to look at it.
They are spellcasters with 3/4ths BAB.
They are martials who can cast spells-- while delivering a full attack.
Consider the implications of the second one. A well piloted Magus-- Kensai included-- has an absolutely ludicrous action economy.
Scott Wilhelm wrote: I think the coolest thing about Kensai is the Perfect Strike ability. You do maximum damage. It only works for 1 strike. Since it costs an Arcane Pool point, it takes a Swift Action, which means only 1/round. These facts suggest the best way to exploit Perfect Strike use it is with a Greatsword, and to get Whirlwind Attack. With that, you also maximize the effect of Power Attack, your Arcane Pool, and Spell Combat effects like Shocking Grasp. But again, many of these things are diminished when you are a Kensai. Plus your armor choices are severely limited when you are a Kensai, and that's bad when you are trying to use Whirlwind Attack. To be blunt... no. Perfect Strike is cool when you get it, sure. But the most common Kensai weapons are d6 tools-- rapier, scimitar, etc. Every now and then maybe a katana (probably meaning Swash dip). That's a d8. A d6 rolls, on average, 3.5 damage, meaning Perfect Strike adds 2.5 damage. A D8 adds 3.5 on average. This does not scale well.
A Greatsword is a terrible idea for a Magus of any kind. They require a hand free to use Spell Combat, meaning that they can't effectively use a two-hander because it utterly ruins their action economy.
And, finally, Whirlwind Attack requires three nigh-useless feats and one mediocre feat... so no. I personally wouldn't even use Power Attack on a Magus, since this is a class who can pretty much only one-hand (bad for PA), has 3/4ths BAB (bad for PA), doesn't care about Strength at all (... Make PA unable to even be taken), and already has accuracy issues (bad for PA).
This is what the Kensai has going for them:
-Int-to-AC. This makes the early levels rough but not insurmountable.
-Free Weapon Focus. This removes half of the penalty for using Spell Combat.
-Better mid-to-late abilities than the Magus. The only ability other than armor worth noting that the Kensai loses is Spell Recall, and in exchange the Kensai get Int-to-Init, Int-to-crit-confirmation, Int-as-Combat Reflexes, and exploiting the surprise round for fun, profit, and extra buffs.
-Less MAD than the Magus. It's much easier for a Kensai to justify dropping Str, giving them only two vital stats (Dex+Int) alongside the everpresent Con. Your standard Magus can do the same, but it means rendering two class abilities useless. Might be worthwhile, but the Kensai doesn't have to make that choice.
And these are the problems with the Kensai:
-Diminished spellcasting, counteracted by them being less MAD than the standard Magus and thus probably packing a higher Int.
-No armor, counteracted by 0 ACP armors, Spell Blending in Mage Armor, higher Dex, and of course Int-to-AC.
Scott Wilhelm wrote: I hope my ideas are helpful. This is a rough idea of what I might do with Kensai.
1Fighter1: Halfling, Fleet of Foot, Expertise, Dodge
2F2: Risky Striker
3F3: Mobility
4F4: Spring Attack
5F4Magus1: Kensai, Canny Defense +1, Arcane Pool, Weapon Focus Greatsword, Spell Combat
Since you have diminished casting, you might not have any spells, anyway, when you do, I recommend a Darkleaf Cloth Hide Shirt with a +3 armor bonus and only a 5% Arcane Spell Failure.
6F4M2: Spell Strike, Canny Defense +2
7F4M3: Weapon Specialization Greatsword, Magus Arcana
8F4M4: Perfect Strike
At level 8, this is about your bog-standard Kensai (with a mild liberty taken for race because I like Tieflings; feel free to sub in humans)
Tiefling, Magical Lineage (Shocking Grasp), Pragmatic Activator
1: Arcane Pool, Spell Combat, Weapon Focus: Scimitar, Canny Defense, Weapon Finesse
2: Spellstrike
3: Flamboyant Arcana, Dervish Dance
4: Perfect Strike
5: Extra Arcana: Arcane Deed: Precise Strike, Intensify Spell
6: Arcane Accuracy
7: Fighter Training, Iajutsu, Grasping Tail
8: Improved Spell Combat
There are lots of ways to modify or improve on this. Armor of the Pit is a great Tiefling racial you can take; if you're a different race you can try out Combat Reflexes at level 7. Alternately, you can use the level 7 feat-- and even level 5 by dropping Arcane Accuracy down a bit-- to set up a less generic build. There are all kinds out there.
Figure before items we're looking at 18 Dex, 18+2 Int, 14 Con. This means we're looking at +9 AC off Dex/Int, we'll be using a Haramaki for another +1 AC, and we have access to spells to increase our AC further, either by adding to our Dex or just breaking out a good old Shield spell. This is not an overly intensive AC build; a Kensai generally tops at 18 AC at level 1 but can scale easily.
20 Int means that, assuming we don't have any Int-boosting items, Pearls of Power, or the like, we have 5 1st-level spells, 4 2nd level spells, and 2 3rd level spells. We can freely turn a 1st level spell slot into a free attack with our scimitar dealing 9d6+12 damage at +3 (+6 if the target is metal/wearing metal). 2nd level spell slots can be Frigid Touch for control, Bladed Dash for mobility, or myriad other things. Our 3rd level spell is probably Haste.
By comparison, even generously assuming that a build that doesn't care about spells has 20 Int, your build is looking at 4 1st-level spells and one second-level spell. While the standard Kensai is capable of acting as limited party support by buffing the team, your build cannot. When the standard really starts to grow into its support spells, your build will be massively behind. Additionally, your build is effectively locked out of anything that allows a save.
Considering saves (assuming 10 in all stats for both)): Standard Kensai has +6/2/6, your has +8/2/5 (assuming the +2 for level one is counted for both at least). Assuming max HP at first level, average thereafter, and 10 Con, standard has 39.5, while yours has 44.5. However, if the FCB is applied to HP, the margin narrows to 47.5 vs. 48.5... basically nonexistent. BAB is +6 for the standard and +7 for yours, giving you a mild edge... but the standard will almost always be +1 ahead in Weapon Enhancement options, reducing the advantage. Finally, the standard Kenai at this level has Int+4 Arcane Pool Points instead of Int+2, and is more likely to have a high Int.
And the crux of the question, damage? It... goes to the standard.
Putting aside Spell Combat for a moment, assuming both builds are at a +4 to hit with their primary stat (Unlikely, given that the Tiefling is +Dex while the Halfing is -Str), and assuming that both builds are making use of the Magus' arcane pool enhancement on an otherwise mundane version of their weapon, the standard's attack does 1d6+4(Dex)+8(Precise Strike)+1(enhancement), at a to-hit of +12(+6 BAB, +4 Dex, +1 enhancement, +1 Weapon Focus), and it crits 30% of the time via adding the Keen property. Crit confirmation is rolled at +17.
Comparatively, your build would have 2d6+6(Str and two-handing, but see the above about the likelihood of this)+2(Weapon Specialization)+1(enhancement). If the target is at least Large, you can add another 4 damage. We'll assume the target is indeed Large. Your to-hit is +14 (+7 BAB, +4 Str, +1 enhancement, +1 Weapon Focus, +1 size) You crit 10% of the time, and are at +14 to confirm.
We will assume all attacks are hits, and all crits are confirmed. I can instead run this against an AC of choice but right now I'd rather not look up the numbers for average AC at this level (similarly, I'm not up to figuring out what % of enemies are Large for Risky Striker to work). Thus: Average damage, standard Kensai no Spell Combat: (3.5+13=16.5)*.7+(16.5+3.5+5)*.3=19.5. Average damage, your build: (7+6+2+1+4=20)*.9 +
(40*2)*.1=22.
Looks advantageous for your build. Now let's watch what happens when we let both builds play with their preferred tactics on a full attack. We will assume three enemies are in range of a Whirlwind Attack (and this also assumes that they're all Large and yet got into your reach... this is turning into a stretch).
Kensai: Spell Combat -> Intensified Shocking Grasp. Deliver the spell with Spellstrike. Average damage for this attack is 46.35. Full attack adds 19.5*2=39 damage, thus we net 85.35 damage. Oh, and we still have our Swift Action. Arcane Accuracy is on the table for +5 to hit if we want.
Your build: Whirlwind Attack (3 Large targets) + Perfect Strike: Perfect Strike will increase your damage to 29.7 damage. Making three attacks and assuming they all hit, you do 89.1.
This is a minimal difference in damage, all things considered. Now let's look at the details.
Compare resource expenditure: The standard lost one first-level spell, and as such can repeat this attack four more times. We may have expended a Pool Point in addition to the Weapon Enhancement, but since we have 9, that's acceptable. We're good for four more shots like that.
You spent one pool point, in addition to the point spent on Enhancement. Assuming 20 Int, you have 5 points remaining, meaning you're good for two more shots like that.
But wait! There's more!
You did marginally more damage... spread out across three opponents. The standard Kensai killed its target dead (a quick skim of CR=8 monsters showed very few that can survive 85.35). You're now surrounded by three Large targets who want to drop you. Note that this was the generous set of assumptions. Anything less than three Large opponents means the Kensai pulls ahead in damage.
So. Let's go back over these damage notes:
-The standard Kensai deals effectively the same damage but is more effective at dismantling a single target
-The standard has more combat endurance, with five uses of its standard tactic vs. four from your build.
-The only assumption above that favors the standard Kensai is that all attacks hit.
-Above assumptions that favor the Halfing: Strength equal to standard's Dex. Int equal to Standard's Int. Targets are Large. Three targets are within a character's 5' reach voluntarily (note that they have almost no reason to ever do this, being Large). There was time to buff the weapon prior to attack (note that the standard didn't use its Swift Action while the Halfing did).
But wait! There's (still) more! Consider:
-The standard Kensai has a use of Haste. This means he can add another 19.5 damage to his full attack if he cast it prior to this round (probably while closing), putting him ahead in raw damage. The Halfing does not have Haste and won't for some time.
-The standard Kensai has Grasping Tail. This means that Rod + Spell Combat is suddenly on the table. A Lesser Rod of Maximize is easily affordable at this level... and that pushes the Kensai's damage up to 81.45 on the Spellstrike attack alone. Add in the actual full attack and the standard build is hitting triple digits.
-The standard Kensai has Flamboyant Arcana, meaning they can burn a Pool Point to attempt a parry of an attack to totally avoid it and counterattack. Without Combat Reflexes this is a once-per-round deal (and it eats into points anyway), but it more than makes up for any loss of AC. Notably the difference on AC is only one point anyway; +3 for Darkleaf Cloth Hide Shirt vs. +1 for Haramaki and +1 more Canny Defense. Size bonus is offset by Risky Striker.
All in all... I don't think there's a metric by which that build of Fighter 4/Kensai 4 is possibly more successful than even the most boring Kensai 8.
It occurs to me that Spell Blending may be a truly great Arcana for a Kensai to pick up, as Mage Armor is likely to be very helpful. If you can wait until level 6 (or 5 if you spend a feat), you could grab a second first level spell, too. I've had fun channeling Touch of Gracelessness, though other spells have a potential to be useful.
I do not think Perfect Strike works on every strike of Whirlwind attack. You are making separate attack rolls for each opponent: each is a different 'hit', so each would take an arcane pool point. Whirlwind strike is worded poorly, but I believe this is consistent with past debates.
I have found 1 use for perfect strike: When facing what you are absolutely sure is the big bad and the last major fight of the day, you can eke out just a tiny bit more damage per round by burning arcane points.
Genuine wrote: It occurs to me that Spell Blending may be a truly great Arcana for a Kensai to pick up, as Mage Armor is likely to be very helpful. If you can wait until level 6 (or 5 if you spend a feat), you could grab a second first level spell, too. I've had fun channeling Touch of Gracelessness, though other spells have a potential to be useful. I like spell blending a lot, though usually by the time its available, the player will have a wand of mage armor, potions, or similar. What I reaaaally like doing is getting Spell Blending at level 7 using the Elf favored class bonus (take a hp at level 1) - that gets you 2 2cd level spells like False Life.
Thaago wrote: I do not think Perfect Strike works on every strike of Whirlwind attack. You are making separate attack rolls for each opponent: each is a different 'hit', so each would take an arcane pool point. Whirlwind strike is worded poorly, but I believe this is consistent with past debates. That's actually my belief as well-- and I'm also fairly certain it's not an action at all, let alone a Swift Action-- but I figured going with the assumptions laid out by the builder and then proving its weakness was fundamentally stronger than trying to undermine the assumptions (as Whirlwind Strike is very poorly worded) and then dismantling the build.
If you assume that, the strategy becomes nigh-useless because the posted build could use its main strategy twice a day at level 8 and isn't online at all until then.
Of course, looking back I should have read more closely, that build doesn't even have Whirlwind Attack for whatever reason. This confuses me. Not quite sure when that build is supposed to come online... but I'm sure it will eventually.
Orfamay Quest wrote: As a general rule, thou shalt not lose caster levels.. I think the spells you get are probably worth more than a +1 BAB and a feat.
I am definitely with Orfamay Quest on this one. I really believe a Magus is more powerful if he stays purely on the Magi path. Dipping means you lose access to more spells, and it would degrade the purpose of the Magus.
Thaago wrote: I do not think Perfect Strike works on every strike of Whirlwind attack. You are making separate attack rolls for each opponent: each is a different 'hit', so each would take an arcane pool point. Whirlwind strike is worded poorly, but I believe this is consistent with past debates.
I have found 1 use for perfect strike: When facing what you are absolutely sure is the big bad and the last major fight of the day, you can eke out just a tiny bit more damage per round by burning arcane points.
Genuine wrote: It occurs to me that Spell Blending may be a truly great Arcana for a Kensai to pick up, as Mage Armor is likely to be very helpful. If you can wait until level 6 (or 5 if you spend a feat), you could grab a second first level spell, too. I've had fun channeling Touch of Gracelessness, though other spells have a potential to be useful. I like spell blending a lot, though usually by the time its available, the player will have a wand of mage armor, potions, or similar. What I reaaaally like doing is getting Spell Blending at level 7 using the Elf favored class bonus (take a hp at level 1) - that gets you 2 2cd level spells like False Life.
Uses for perfect strike lie in it's secondary ability: Increasing the critical strike multiplier.
For instance, consider using it with a spell storing weapon. Instead of getting 1 spell, your getting two. Also consider the burst weapon enchantments. If you use 2 arcane pool points, you deal an extra 1d10 damage for every burst enchantment you have on your weapon. Anything else that scales off of a higher critical multiplier is wonderful to use with perfect strike.
How does having a higher crit multiplier get you an extra spell via a Spell-Storing weapon? If it's under the assumption that an x3 crit modifier would triple the damage of the spell... that's explicitly not how Spellstrike works, and is kind of narrowly assuming that the spell is one there solely to do damage. This makes Frigid Touch sad.
*Shrug* It is nice with Burst enchantments but as those are generally less valuable than their baseline versions, I'm not overly impressed by them. Overall most of the Magus' damage boosters don't particularly care for an increased critical modifier-- though of course increasing the chance of a crit is something else entirely.
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