I am curious how many people out there moved on from the Beginner Box to using the core rule book?
The beginner box was the first product I got and I used it to introduce a few friends.
We did, and then moved back to the BB. The Core Rules were just too complex for my taste. So, we run various characters up to 5th using any BB adventure we can find.
I keep saying that BB should be revamped to go to level 10 and then print more adventures for it to compete with D&D 5e. It'll be like Kaijudo to Magic: the Gathering, jungle juice to wine, college football to the NFL,
We play BB with a limit of lvl 5. Each additional 6000 XP grants you another feat.
If there is something not covered in the BB (ie two weapon fighting) we will draw a rule for it out of the Core rules.
I too find the core rules too complex for my taste.
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We did, and then moved back to the BB. The Core Rules were just too complex for my taste. So, we run various characters up to 5th using any BB adventure we can find.I keep saying that BB should be revamped to go to level 10 and then print more adventures for it to compete with D&D 5e. It'll be like Kaijudo to Magic: the Gathering, jungle juice to wine, college football to the NFL,
College football to the NFL... good comparison.
And I agree, but I don't think Paizo would.
Back in the early 80s TSR split the fanbase by running separate product lines for D&D and AD&D (what're now called classic and 1E). It was a hard lesson-learned, and I suspect Paizo wants to keep that from happening.
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We play BB with a limit of lvl 5. Each additional 6000 XP grants you another feat.
If there is something not covered in the BB (ie two weapon fighting) we will draw a rule for it out of the Core rules.I too find the core rules too complex for my taste.
That's a really interesting idea... have you tried any of the higher-level APs or modules using this approach? That might actually work for us if it's not too hard to scale encounters so that the PCs are not hammered by monsters and NPCs with Core Rule feats and skills.
If you continue to use BB rules, why don't you simply adjust the core rules for BB rule play.
By this I mean, you could use the XP tables to get your characters to higher levels, as well as have a few more races and classes available.
Basically, if the Core rules are too complex, don't use them fully, but use aspects of them you like to expand your BB game. Wouldn't this expand the game beyond 5th level but keep the simplicity of the BB that you like?
We play BB with a limit of lvl 5. Each additional 6000 XP grants you another feat.
If there is something not covered in the BB (ie two weapon fighting) we will draw a rule for it out of the Core rules.I too find the core rules too complex for my taste.
When my group plays Pathfinder, this is what we do. We have pretty much given up on full Pathfinder and just stick to the Basic Box.
That's a really interesting idea... have you tried any of the higher-level APs or modules using this approach? That might actually work for us if it's not too hard to scale encounters so that the PCs are not hammered by monsters and NPCs with Core Rule feats and skills.We play BB with a limit of lvl 5. Each additional 6000 XP grants you another feat.
If there is something not covered in the BB (ie two weapon fighting) we will draw a rule for it out of the Core rules.I too find the core rules too complex for my taste.
It requires some adaptation but is doable. Assuming max level of 5 plus feats for every 5000 XP or so you could probably emulate levels 5 - 10 without too much work. You just need to account for things like curses, restoration and a couple of other things.
Check out E6 (Epic 6). It was the original 3rd Edition inspiration behind this idea. It has lots of great resources and suggestion for how to handle things above level 5 and what to watch out for.
The Transitions Guide has details on how to level up the four BB classes to level 6; apparently an even number is better for the level cap (I'm guessing it's something to do with casters' access to spells).
I'm planning to run a BB campaign for my family soon, with a level 6 cap. Full Pathfinder rules would definitely scare them away.
E6 is a good resource for sure. IMHO (an I've been playing since 1984), anything beyond 5 or 6 gets into the super human realm and is not my cup of tea. I had forgotten about the transition guide.
Also my players use the Hero Lab Starter Edition (free and only goes to lvl 5)
I was just curious if Paizo had done any market research about BB players.
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If you continue to use BB rules, why don't you simply adjust the core rules for BB rule play.
By this I mean, you could use the XP tables to get your characters to higher levels, as well as have a few more races and classes available.
Basically, if the Core rules are too complex, don't use them fully, but use aspects of them you like to expand your BB game. Wouldn't this expand the game beyond 5th level but keep the simplicity of the BB that you like?
In my case I just don't have the time. I barely get to play as is, and it's usually with only one player :-/
I enjoy reading the Core Rulebook, but find the two BB booklets much easier for game play.
I bought the BB and that lead me to buy the Core rulebook, the bestiary, the rise of the runelords adventure path and Pawnn collection.
I love everything from Paizo.
Greetings from Mexico.
I've gone in the other direction. Started with the Core rules then bought the Bestiary but found that it was too crunchy for my group. We now use the Beginners Box as our rules base with Ed O'War's Consolidated Classes PDF (only core classes though) and our Home Rules which use bits of 4th and 5th edition to make the game run smoother.
http://www.4shared.com/office/xUaKerzfce/Solpertaine_v2.html
I started out GMing the Beginner Box for some friends of mine and since then we have made the leap to the full game - to differing levels of success for some.
Most of us have learned the core rules for the most part and are rather proficient in them but one of my players more or less dropped out when realizing the scope of the non-BB rules. His first PC died at low levels and in an initiative to get him learn the game properly I told him he'd have to prepare his own character rather than be handheld by the GM the whole way. I guess that was too much for him because I haven't heard from him in a month (we play weekly).
Different games for different people, I guess.
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My group has. We were all tabletop RPG newbies and are now having lots of fun in the CRB. However, I am looking forward to the Strategy Guide as it sounds like it will have the kind of information we want.
I bought the BB on a whim and decided to bust it out with some friends on one otherwise uneventful night. We got hooked on the first game, soon we were using CRB, APG, Bestiary, UC, and UM in our games, even handcrafting our dungeons out of cardboard and paint.
We still use the BB for the occasional pawn however
Moved on to D&D 5th edition. I love Pathfinder presentation, artwork, and background for Golarion. But the rules/options in the Corebook and add on rule books are just way too much crunch for my tastes and way too much bookkeeping for a DM who has players who are not familiar with the rules or understand all the options that would be available to them. If the Beginner Box was expanded to 10 levels, I would be in heaven and use it for all my gaming needs.
IMO, when moving to more complex rules, it's only the GM who really needs to know the rules. This allows the players to tell the GM what they want their characters to do in plain language and let the GM adjudicate those actions based on the rules. If the GM can then paraphrase those desired actions concisely in 'rule-speak' back to the player that helps the players gradually learn the rules.
(I also think this helps roleplaying as the player isn't sitting there calculating every pro and con for their action. ;-) )
As to the actual question... :-)
We haven't moved to the Core Rulebook yet. My son is chomping at the bit to do so. :-) However, the rest of the group isn't comfortable with it yet and still having lots of fun with the Beginner Box.
Moved on to D&D 5th edition. I love Pathfinder presentation, artwork, and background for Golarion. But the rules/options in the Corebook and add on rule books are just way too much crunch for my tastes and way too much bookkeeping for a DM who has players who are not familiar with the rules or understand all the options that would be available to them. If the Beginner Box was expanded to 10 levels, I would be in heaven and use it for all my gaming needs.
I can definitely relate to what you're saying. If there were a "Basic Pathfinder" for up to level 10 that'd be just awesome. The 5E option doesn't really work for me as I'm one of those bitter old curmudgeons that refuses to give money to Hazbro. For more accessible gaming I'm just going to use non-D&D based systems. They're harder to sell to players but what other options are there?
I can definitely relate to what you're saying. If there were a "Basic Pathfinder" for up to level 10 that'd be just awesome. The 5E option doesn't really work for me as I'm one of those bitter old curmudgeons that refuses to give money to Hazbro. For more accessible gaming I'm just going to use non-D&D based systems. They're harder to sell to players but what other options are there?
I've always been fond of Hackmaster. The 5th edition is pretty nifty. However, it's definitely a lower powered magic game. (You can even get the Basic version as a free PDF over on the company's website.)
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Moved on to D&D 5th edition. I love Pathfinder presentation, artwork, and background for Golarion. But the rules/options in the Corebook and add on rule books are just way too much crunch for my tastes and way too much bookkeeping for a DM who has players who are not familiar with the rules or understand all the options that would be available to them. If the Beginner Box was expanded to 10 levels, I would be in heaven and use it for all my gaming needs.
I agree, but my only player is my teenaged son, who loves crunchy rules and tactical games. We tried 5E but we're very immersed (not to mention invested) in Golarion. I prefer fast play, quick combat resolution, and the players telling me how they go about perception, but I'm an old 0E guy. It's better to keep my son happy and play PFR.
I agree, but my only player is my teenaged son, who loves crunchy rules and tactical games. We tried 5E but we're very immersed (not to mention invested) in Golarion. I prefer fast play, quick combat resolution, and the players telling me how they go about perception, but I'm an old 0E guy. It's better to keep my son happy and play PFR.
My players are my 11 year old son and my 34 year old wife. We have tried 4th Edition D&D, West End Star Wars, Star Wars Edge of the Empire, Pathfinder Beginner Box, latest version of Gamma World, BX D&D, and 5th Edition D&D. So far the only ones that made it past one session have been Gamma World, Edge of the Empire, BX D&D, and 5th Edition.I am picking up two all new players in my 24 year old nephew and his girlfriend tomorrow. I will be trying to run Rise of the Runelords under 5th Edition so we will see how that goes.
So four people in the thread so far say that they did move on, eight say that they didn't move on, and three people (now four, with myself) didn't say one way or the other.
Pretty good
So is there a market for Beginner Box expansions?
I think so. I'm not sure if I clarified but I started with the beginner box and went on to the hard covers. Although I moved on for not that bright or young players I feel like the beginner box is invaluable. Having a set of simple pathfinder rules is super useful in that regard.
First time poster here. I think that there is a market as well. I like the beginner box set has a "good bang for a buck" in what you get for under $40.00.
I'll just have to mull this over and decide if I want to go this route in making an investment into doing 3rd party modules. Getting quality artwork will be the most expensive aspect in creating content. Licensing could be another if I want more than just a 3rd party license.
But back to topic. I really like the beginner box set. The biggest thing I can see going for the box set is fast easy casual play.
Core rules could be labeled as "Epic style" of Rpging.
And there are many of us that have hectic lives just do not have the time to play a serious set of core rules. I'm one of them. But I sure like to have a fun and simple game to rp for a few hours a week.
Adam LongWalker.
Malwing, I had you counted as "Didn't say one way or the other".
Now (with Adam) we're at five did move on, nine didn't move on, and three people didn't say one way or the other. Still pretty good. More than a third moved on.
First time poster here. I think that there is a market as well. I like the beginner box set has a "good bang for a buck" in what you get for under $40.00.
I'll just have to mull this over and decide if I want to go this route in making an investment into doing 3rd party modules. Getting quality artwork will be the most expensive aspect in creating content. Licensing could be another if I want more than just a 3rd party license.
Adam LongWalker.
I remember reading (wish I remembered where) that Paizo just doesn't want "Beginner Box" mentioned in the product name or description. Other than that, it's OGL. Hence the reason you get 0One game's BASIC series.
That being said, I would support a Kickstarter project for 3pp material. If it doesn't have any artwork, I'd be happy if the content is good. I'd say the artwork would be a stretch goal.
Nine out of 14 or 17 is a good enough excuse for at least some third party beginner box rule material.
I will say that I see a lot of people wanting gestalt, epic and other rules systems that augment the power level and complexity of the game. Also when I brought it up in another thread the only response I got was that being stuck at levle 5 is 'lame' so I'm not sure how many people actually want a low powered campaign despite wanting the consequences of a low powered campaign.
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First time poster here. I think that there is a market as well. I like the beginner box set has a "good bang for a buck" in what you get for under $40.00.
I'll just have to mull this over and decide if I want to go this route in making an investment into doing 3rd party modules. Getting quality artwork will be the most expensive aspect in creating content. Licensing could be another if I want more than just a 3rd party license.
Adam LongWalker.
I remember reading (wish I remembered where) that Paizo just doesn't want "Beginner Box" mentioned in the product name or description. Other than that, it's OGL. Hence the reason you get 0One game's BASIC series.
That being said, I would support a Kickstarter project for 3pp material. If it doesn't have any artwork, I'd be happy if the content is good. I'd say the artwork would be a stretch goal.
I understand what Paizo is possibility thinking.
However...
I've been involved within the Entertainment Industry (in one form or another) for a very long time. I keep statical data on certain parts of the market share I wish to invest.
The biggest asset to the company (IMHO) is currently their community(+ RPG Society) which Paizo has done a good job in nurturing and promoting.
The biggest threat to the company is 5th ED D&D and even though 5th ED was 2nd place in this years summer sales, Paizo should not be complacent.
Because 5ED is very streamlined and rather easy to use.
The other threat that sometimes businesses fail to react quickly to our very fast paced society. Changes of what people want happen far quicker than they did in the 70's. RPG games as a whole do not have the same growth pattern as (an example) Board Games.
You can not win the hearts of the people who are into one RPG or another. You have recruit new customers and try to retain many of the old customers to promote growth. Let the customers decide which choice they want to make. Do not force the customer to make that choice...
Because they will...
I do not think that Paizo would throw opportunity away just because. I believe if promoted the right way, product can be created for the Beginner Box set AS well as Core set of Rules.
Financing a high quality product is not a problem for me. I can do this is because I made wise investments (such as real estate) over the years and live within my means.
I want to create content for people to enjoy but...
What is stopping me is several things. Some of it is more research needs to be done within the RPG sector to see if it is expanding or contracting of late. Part of me hates throwing money away on a market that is possibly shrinking. A slow contraction within this sector is still a possibility to create content though.
Another is the entire business aspect of licensing the product itself.
This can be a royal pain to deal with at times. Dealt with talking heads before and the legalese. Not sure if I want to deal with that style of business for what I would consider my fun time in creating content.
Which is why I am leery with WotC style of business ethics and hoping Paizo is not quite the same.
Then finally what kind of product this will be. It must be unique enough and strong enough to stand on its own, otherwise it will drown in the sea of 3rd party product that is out there now. Again more research is needed.
It takes a great deal of time and effort (besides financing the product)to succeed in these economic times. I've been there and I've done it and succeeded within my skill set.
And sometimes being an old man can be a blessing for if your are wise enough you will retain the wisdom of your mentors and peers from your past to the present...
So you won't make the same mistake twice.
As stated before... I'm still mulling this over. There are pluses but there are minuses as well that must be taken into account before I start throwing time and resources into creating content.
Until then I'll continue to Rping with the Beginners Box set.
Adam LongWalker
Back in the early 80s TSR split the fanbase by running separate product lines for D&D and AD&D (what're now called classic and 1E). It was a hard lesson-learned, and I suspect Paizo wants to keep that from happening.
This is a myth that somehow keeps getting repeated. TSR never had any problems selling *rulebooks*, be they "BESMI" or "AD&D". And it wasn't the fanbase that was split, it was the purchasing base.
It was the multiple campaign settings that split the purchasing base, and left a warehouse full of literally tons of unsold product that left TSR in debt with printers and would eventually get pulped after the WotC acquisition (cool story, google it).
The Rules Cyclopedia died a natural death after nearly 20 years of "basic" rules selling just fine along "advanced" rules after more players eventually gravitated toward 2E.
I certainly hope this myth is not being used as Paizo's reasoning for no BB expansions...
...You can not win the hearts of the people who are into one RPG or another. You have recruit new customers and try to retain many of the old customers to promote growth. Let the customers decide which choice they want to make. Do not...
I am certainly glad to hear of someone who is thorough in their business thinking. I've tried similar endeavors in the past and because of my business inexperience didn't succeed. If you do decide to do it, I believe you'd have the best chance of success. I hope you do. My kids and I love the BB ruleset and I either have to create my own or adapt things myself, which can be tricky at times (especially with larger modules and such). I am curious, though:
How do you do market research? Do you look up published references or hire a company to do it? I've always wondered.
...You can not win the hearts of the people who are into one RPG or another. You have recruit new customers and try to retain many of the old customers to promote growth. Let the customers decide which choice they want to make. Do not...
I am certainly glad to hear of someone who is thorough in their business thinking. I've tried similar endeavors in the past and because of my business inexperience didn't succeed. If you do decide to do it, I believe you'd have the best chance of success. I hope you do. My kids and I love the BB ruleset and I either have to create my own or adapt things myself, which can be tricky at times (especially with larger modules and such). I am curious, though:
How do you do market research? Do you look up published references or hire a company to do it? I've always wondered.
First of all let's talk about your failure. A true failure is when you did not learned from your mistake. There is always the knowledge of what you learned. Something that sticks with you for a life time.
One of my memorable failures is a business venture opening up a comic/game store in the late 80/90's. I thought it was a cool idea opening up a store like that with other like minded individuals. I had to learn fast about customer service as well as purchasing product.
I have fond memories of good people playing games and having fun at the shop.
The reason for the store's failure is my partners got all bound up into the Comic Book Ponzi scheme during that time.
One important rule that everyone should now.... The value of something is what the market will bear...
When the collapse of the Comic Book industry happened the store had to close. My partners were financially ruined. I chalked it up as another learning experience and wrote my losses for tax purposes.
That basic foundation of knowledge that I have gained has not changed much through the years.
Remember if you learn from your mistakes your venture is not truly a failure...
And I have failed a hell of a lot, but I've also succeeded enough to live comfortably. You have to be stubborn at times to live through the bad times and wise enough remember them. I simply just kept going until I have a favorable result.
Your next question is about market research. The answer is simple and yet at times hard to achieve a probable result.
1. The internet is your friend so DATA MINE all information necessary for your content/product. Then after months of research you come to a probable result one way or another.
2. Network. You have no idea on how important networking is... I have had projects land on my feet by people who where not in the same industry, but they knew someone, who knew someone, who had an interesting idea.
3. Market research companies. This can be as cheep or expensive as you want it to be. I have several subscriptions on which market I have an interest in.
But I'll give you freebee... Icv2.com It is a pretty good site to look up all sorts of entertainment markets.
Now that I think I have answered the question given so I'll ask one of my own.
What do you think is needed in 3BB?
Adam LongWalker.
Personally, what I think is needed is the ability to advance to level 10, another race or two, and another class or two. Maybe the sorcerer as an alternative to the wizard for an arcane caster. The druid as alternative to cleric caster. And maybe the bard as an alternative to the rogue. A Beginner Box Adventure Path would be nice as well, but in my opinion only plausible if the level max is upped to at least 10.
...You can not win the hearts of the people who are into one RPG or another. You have recruit new customers and try to retain many of the old customers to promote growth. Let the customers decide which choice they want to make. Do not...
I am certainly glad to hear of someone who is thorough in their business thinking. I've tried similar endeavors in the past and because of my business inexperience didn't succeed. If you do decide to do it, I believe you'd have the best chance of success. I hope you do. My kids and I love the BB ruleset and I either have to create my own or adapt things myself, which can be tricky at times (especially with larger modules and such). I am curious, though:
How do you do market research? Do you look up published references or hire a company to do it? I've always wondered.
First of all let's talk about your failure. A true failure is when you did not learned from your mistake. There is always the knowledge of what you learned. Something that sticks with you for a life time.
One of my memorable failures is a business venture opening up a comic/game store in the late 80/90's. I thought it was a cool idea opening up a store like that with other like minded individuals. I had to learn fast about customer service as well as purchasing product.
I have fond memories of good people playing games and having fun at the shop.
The reason for the store's failure is my partners got all bound up into the Comic Book Ponzi scheme during that time.
One important rule that everyone should now.... The value of something is what the market will bear...
When the collapse of the Comic Book industry happened the store had to close. My partners were financially ruined. I chalked it up as another learning experience and wrote my losses for tax purposes.
That basic foundation of knowledge that I have gained has not changed much through the years.
Remember if you learn from your mistakes your venture...
Thanks for you thoughts. That's a real encouragement and a reminder of some lessons I had forgotten.
What I'd like to see for the BB is a series of campaigns designed to take a player from level 1 to 5 (or six with the transitions guide). Which means a campaign setting and some adventures. The key would be to keep them simple. If the story-lines are easy to keep track of for the GM (who I would assume either wants a simpler game or is new to RPG's) then they'll be played.
An interesting thought I had was a series of free products for gm's that provide pre-generated NPC's with motivations, history, and maybe some jobs they might hire a PC for. This would be a one-page product done to get attention to the BB line of products. Maybe one released a month. Keep people coming back to the site to see what's new.
Those are my initial thoughts. Based on what I've read on the BB forums.
I'm going to break this down a bit.
Your comment, quote:
"What I'd like to see for the BB is a series of campaigns designed to take a player from level 1 to 5 (or six with the transitions guide). Which means a campaign setting and some adventures. The key would be to keep them simple. If the story-lines are easy to keep track of for the GM (who I would assume either wants a simpler game or is new to RPG's) then they'll be played."
My reply.
This part is rather easy to do as I have a few IP's (Intellectual Property) that I can follow through with. However as stated before the content has to be unique enough to stand on its own. That is the crux of the matter.
Your comment, quote:
"An interesting thought I had was a series of free products for gm's that provide pre-generated NPC's with motivations, history, and maybe some jobs they might hire a PC for. This would be a one-page product done to get attention to the BB line of products. Maybe one released a month. Keep people coming back to the site to see what's new."
My reply.
The free part can only happen if I am satisfied that the content created for BB will at least break even.
One of the luxuries I have is a professional Technical Writer on staff. Which means that the print content and layout will be of a higher quality than just an individual or a group of friends getting together to create something.
To Wally.West's comment. I'll keep that in mind as well about upper levels for BB.
My 2 cents based on my BB experience:
-Add the halfling race
-Add the ranger class
-a sandbox style campaign setting (standpoint or its likeness) stocked with a half dozen or so dungeon/adventures that are scalable from levels 1-5 with a dozen new monster stats.
-add scribe scroll, intimidation skil, and maybe some basic craft skills
-add a dozen basic languages
Easy breezy lemon sqeezy
My 2 cents based on my BB experience:
-Add the halfling race
-Add the ranger class
-a sandbox style campaign setting (standpoint or its likeness) stocked with a half dozen or so dungeon/adventures that are scalable from levels 1-5 with a dozen new monster stats.
-add scribe scroll, intimidation skil, and maybe some basic craft skills
-add a dozen basic languagesEasy breezy lemon sqeezy
Noted as this is a logical concept.
As for an update I think I found something that would be unique enough to stand on it's merits. I'll have to start talking to several of the "Old Horsemen" I know to see if my concept is a viable on.
yes, yes i did
My group also moved on from the BB. To be fair, I did more or less only get the BB to see whether we wanted to get into normal Pathfinder or not.
yes, yes i did
and BTW it was worth it
Not yet. (Although my son is chomping at the bit to move on. :-D However, his friends aren't ready yet.)
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Well, I played the Bata test version of PF when it first came out, and while purchased the beginner box and used it I currently run on fantasy Grounds several games, for several different player types. But I must say the original D&D BASIC and EXPERT versions are by far the best & straight Fwd for playing with new non gamers and small children round the 9-12 age group, who really just want to play. D&D5E is well some where out in its own again but this version seems to have rolled back to a more old school 2nd edt feel.